Phaeton Back to USA

[Passat2001_5lover]

Just got my Car & Driver magazine, April '12 issue: In article on 25 Cars Worth Waiting For, Page 49

Volkswagen Phaeton: Sell by 2013..est base price $65K Segment: Sedan

WHAT IT IS: The follow-up to the spectacularly slow-selling Phaeton. It will continue to be assembled at a lavish factory in Dresden, Germany, and once again will share powertrains and technology with high-end Audis and the Bentley Continental range.

WHY IT MATTERS: The Phaeton represents the VW brand's highest aspirations. As before, the Phaeton will attempt to move VW upmarket into the BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes sphere.

PLATFORM: Architecture usually reserved for Audis (dubbed MLB) will undergird the Phaeton. A longitudinally mounted engine and all-wheel drive are its hallmarks, as is the extensive use of aluminum.

POWERTRAIN: A new, twin-turbo 3.5 liter V-6 with 345 horses will power base versions. A few will come with the 4.0 liter twin-turbo V-8 that is shared with the Continental range and the Audi S8. Even fewer will come with a W-12.

COMPETITION: Audi A8, BMW 7-series, Jaguar XJ, Lexus LS, Mercedes-Benz S-class.

WHAT MIGHT GO WRONG: Perched way above the rest of the VW lineup, the new Phaeton may continue to confuse shoppers.

ESTIMATED ARRIVAL AND PRICE: Anticipated in late 20313, starting at about $65,000

(Article shows a side-view photo of a beautiful new grey Phaeton)

[Passat2001_5lover]

This certainly runs counter to most ideas here on the 'Vortex. I thought the W-12 was discontinued entirely on Phaetons.

I find it amusing that the $65K price competes with those listed, but conspicuously missing is the Equus, priced exactly the same!

Well--I will certainly be ready to trade in my beautiful Phaeton in late 2013,early 2014, if this comes true!

[Kenny G]

Hoping I can nurse mine along until then. So far so good but who knows. Thankfully I was able to finally get a matching right hand mirror form poland and its working perfectly, only $200 which is 4 to 500 less than any US recking yards.

Ken

[george777]

...I will certainly be ready to trade in my beautiful Phaeton in late 2013,early 2014, if this comes true!

That's the key, IF it becomes reality... We can only hope! I certainly do. But it won't be official for me until I get the call from Karen letting me know it's really (Really!) coming...

[jenvee828]

I've also seen recent mention of a radical change for 2015, with sales starting in 2014 (possible sportback like the Audi A7). Does this mean the change will take place ahead of schedule and with no 5-door? I think the A7 was done nicely, as opposed to some of the "Phaetamera" concept pics floating around.

[Passat2001_5lover]

JENVEE...,

That is the question on my mind too. Here is another...could North America get a different (cheaper) Phaeton than the Rest of The World, such as how VW is handling the Passat? I think that the Glass Plant could handle two Phaeton lines.

My own wish is that VW imports the exact same ones as Germany gets, including the SHORTER version.

Alas, only time will tell...

[Victor R]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Phaeton were indeed to come back to the US (and that is still a big if in my mind...), that we would get a different car here than the ROW.

VW has manufacturing facilities in the US to save on costs; it was precisely the cost that doomed the Phaeton. We already have a different car here, even the 2004-6 models. The Glas Fabrik in Dresden in now over ten years old and getting pretty busy making ROW (read: China) cars. From a business perspective, it would make all the sense in the world to manufacture NAR-specific Phaetons here.

I posted previously on Autobild magazine comparing the Phaeton to the CC (article in German), and guess what?

The CC won!


Now, I have to believe that a major factor was the fact they tested the CC with the top of the line V6 engine for that car and compared it to a Phaeton with also a V6 (in fact, a smaller displacement one than the CC's), but nevertheless....

Call me a pessimist but I can't see a new model Phaeton in the US, even if it does happen, being anything near the car all of us NAR folks love so well.

We all should enjoy our cars for as long as we can. I believe this is a once in a lifetime experience.

Victor

[Paximus]

Would a US-built 2016 VW Phaeton compete better against the BMW 7-series or Mercedes S-class than a German-built "P", except perhaps on price?

That would be an even stranger concept that the existing P...!

CB

[53 0val]

I'd buy a new PHAETON if I could get the W12.

Bob

[valmes]

V6 Phaeton? Really? Thats a joke comparison... I like CC but it is like comparing BMW 5 to 7... don't you think it's rather strange?

[Paximus]

I suppose they were making a comparison at the same price.

But on that basis, Bentley would sell zero Continentals. It's a more complicated purchasing decision, in my view.

Chris

[Victor R]

I suppose they were making a comparison at the same price.

Actually, they weren't.

Here are comparison stats they quoted:

Phaeton
HP: 241
Top Speed: 239 km/h
Acceleration (0-100 km/h): >10 sec
Price: 68,700 Euro

CC
HP: 300
Top Speed: 250 km/h
Acceleration (0-100 km/h): 6.1 sec
Price 40,800 Euro

V6 Phaeton? Really?

Yes, really.

VW now sells the Phaeton with only three engines in Germany: a 4.2 l V8, a 3.6 l V6, and a 3.6 l TDI V6. Look through the forum. How many of our British members drive V8's?

Like 53 Oval, I am partial to the W12. That engine was discontinued world-wide in the Phaeton except for China well over a year ago. I have to have doubts about how long that will last in China as well. Have you sampled or read about the air quality in any large city in China recently?

Moreover, the V10 TDI engine on the Phaeton bit the dust world-wide well before the demise of the W12.

While one can disagree with the Autobild article all one wants, the reality of that perception in the Vaterland, the birthplace of the Phaeton, should not be ignored.

Couple all that with the business disaster of the Phaeton in the US, increasingly tighter CAFE requirements, the fact that the Phaeton with its weight was already saddled with a steep gas guzzler tax (on both the V8 and the W12) eight years ago when first introduced to the NAR market, and the cost of the car, and perhaps one can better see my perspective on why we will never see a Phaeton as we know and love it here ever again....

Victor

[cai]

VW does not seem to understand the US market. They give us cars that are inferior to the ones sold in Europe. They do not have a good selection of diesels and what passes for luxury are just medium tier vehicles that only compete with the Camrys and such.

The idea of a lame V6 for $65,000 is not going to work. This will be looked at as an under performing, overpriced, gas guzzling boat. Those who can pay do not quibble about paying over $100,000 for a BMW 7, an MB S series, or an AudiA8 because those cars have cutting edge technology, performance (0 to 60 under 6.0 sec), luxury and brand recognition appeal.

The "P", as described above, would compete badly with the likes of Acura, Camry, and Lexus. it will not offer none of the cutting edge technology that would distinguish it from those. As performance challenged as a diesel may be, in my opinion, it may have a better chance at competing based on gas mileage and maintenance.

At those prices, either you have the best performance, technology, gas savings, or unparalleled luxury appeal.

cai

[Paximus]

I agree, that mag article makes a strange comparison. A typical dealer-registered Phaeton that someone might actually buy in-showroom in UK is more like this:

£35k ($56k, €42k) tax paid, on-the-road, before trade-in negotiations
delivery mileage (eg 6 miles)
3.0L TDI
340bhp, 500Nm
max speed 237kph, 147mph
8.3s 0-100km/h
5-seat, satnav, bluetooth, rear camera.

All stock seems to be diesel, there are no 3.6 V6 petrol cars in circulation and no V8s.

However nice to own, and a perfectly pleasant and economical drive, that's not a cutting edge spec.

Chris

[Zaphh]

Like 53 Oval, I am partial to the W12. That engine was discontinued world-wide in the Phaeton except for China well over a year ago. I have to have doubts about how long that will last in China as well. Have you sampled or read about the air quality in any large city in China recently?

There isn't any problem with air quality and W12s. What fouls the air is diesel.

P.

[Paximus]

Of course, this kind of plant in China isn't helping much.



photo via unambig.com

[EnglishPhaeton]

There isn't any problem with air quality and W12s. What fouls the air is diesel.

P.

[valmes]

W12 isn't going anywere soon. I am sure in one form (like turbo W12 on Bentley) or another (6.3 NA 500hp W12 in Audi) it will be back in Phaetons if they ever decide to sell it again.

[53 0val]

The W12 is a very special motor. The W12 in the 2006 car is also very different than the earlier PHAETON motors. It isn't just the extra horsepower or the dry sump. It's a faster, smoother, quieter acceleration that has to be experienced to be understood. It's kind of like body surfing a big wave. It's not so much of a "push" ...... it's more like you're being pulled to speed. It's so effortless, so controlled, you can't compare it to anything except maybe that it feels like you're always going downhill. I sure hope, if VW brings back the PHAETON, they bring it back with this motor.

Bob

[Rowayton]

If North America does get a new Phaeton I think a 3.0L 340 HP diesel would sell quite well, especially if offered with VW's fine DSG transmission. I just bought a '12 diesel Jetta sportwagon for my wife with the DSG transmission and am amazed by how seamlessly it shifts. It makes the ZF in my Phaeton seem clumsy. Next, make the Nav system an option to lower the base price a bit (Nav isn't the big deal it used to be when first offered on premium cars - especially if one could interface Nav from a data capable cell phone to the infortainment screen). Keep the 'silly' (I love them) covered air vents and all the toys.
Ron

[Passat2001_5lover]

Nobody indicates if they would consider buying the shorter length P, if VW offered it here. I assume in the comparo above, that the shorter P was raced against the CC, and lost. For me though, winning a sprint race is not why I wanted the P so much, it was the luxury and awesome touches.

I would definitely consider the shorter P, if offered with a sweet diesel engine, w/ loads of torque.

Let's all hope that if it returns, that VW actually supports it better, if they pull the plug after 3 years. It is embarrassing to have to go to BMW to get updated NAV discs

Tim

[jenvee828]

Note in the original post that a (smaller) number of V8s and W12s are expected to join the V6s in America. If you want a $65k base model with the ability to outrun a CC (and more amenities than one), maybe Hyundai can help you out. Otherwise, invest more in a V8 or W12. I agree that winning a sprint race isn't the primary reason people go for the Phaeton.
I would, however, be a little peeved if I missed out on the "Glass Factory" experience. It's weird knowing the air in the suspension comes from the car's German birthplace, but it's a wondrous thing. I'm curious, though: How many original Phaeton owners out there picked up their car from a VW lot in N.A., and how many had theirs custom-built in Dresden? I always wondered how many were sitting on a dealer lot between 2004-2006. It makes sense to manufacture best-sellers in Tennessee, but I'm skeptical the Phaeton will ever be assembled there.

[Garrick]

I love my 04 Phaeton, but I will not be a buyer of the new Phaeton because Volkswagen USA has absolutely no control over their dealers. Case in point, I just had Southpoint VW in Baton Rouge, LA tell me that they don't do oil changes on Phaetons... his exact words "We don't touch em"

I was flabbergasted,,, I guarantee you that the local toyota dealer does Avalon oil changes, and the Mercedes dealer works on every model that Mercedes sells. And that the Hyundai dealer works on the Eqqus.

VW fail.........

[Paximus]

I imagine that dealer never bought the special tools and jigs package required to get themselves trained up and specially certified on Phaeton, and nowadays there's no incentive for them to do that. So they could not warranty any work under the VW aegis. Just a guess.

Chris

[Passat2001_5lover]

I love my 04 Phaeton, but I will not be a buyer of the new Phaeton because Volkswagen USA has absolutely no control over their dealers. Case in point, I just had Southpoint VW in Baton Rouge, LA tell me that they don't do oil changes on Phaetons... his exact words "We don't touch em"

I was flabbergasted,,, I guarantee you that the local toyota dealer does Avalon oil changes, and the Mercedes dealer works on every model that Mercedes sells. And that the Hyundai dealer works on the Eqqus.

VW fail.........

"Garrick" I see this is your very first post here (or anywhere on the 'Tex.)

I believe that every Toyota dealer can service and sell an Avalon. I know that NOT every VW dealer (2004-2006) could service and sell a Phaeton. I know that NOT every Hyundai dealer can service or sell an Equus either.

Only certain VW dealers were allowed to sell Phaetons. The VW dealership that sold me my new Passat and new Touareg, did not sell the Phaetons. It makes no sense to have a specialist Phaeton mechanic on board today at VW dealers who originally did not sell them, or have the special tools and equipment needed to service them. Even for an oil change. This is just my opinion .

I would much rather drive past my local VW dealership (ex-dealership, now that VW took away their license to sell VWs about 90 days ago), to get to a more distant VW dealership that has a Phaeton mechanic--with the correct and very, very specialized tools and equipment available.

The Hyundai Equus is sold at "elite" dealers only. This is easy to check at Hyundai's web page (Check the "Equus dealers only box, in their Dealer Search area). There are quite a few closer Hyundai dealers to me--who did not want to upgrade their dealership/build the infrastructure/ to sell them.

You are wrong to imply that *all* Hyndai dealers can service an Equus. I just called the local Hyundai dealer (Rancho Grande Motors, San Luis Obispo, CA) and they DO NOT sell or service the Equus. Best to check your facts, than make a blanket inaccurate statement on this forum (please).

Regards,
Tim

[jyoung8607]

The W12 is a very special motor. The W12 in the 2006 car is also very different than the earlier PHAETON motors. It isn't just the extra horsepower or the dry sump. It's a faster, smoother, quieter acceleration that has to be experienced to be understood.

I have a 2006 W12 (BRP) and I couldn't agree more about the experience. I bought it in September of last year and it still puts a big smile on my face every time I get in. FYI though, it's still wet sump lubricated. Yes, the oil pan and the oil filter arrangement and the PCV systems were revised from the earlier BAP W12, but it doesn't have the Audi-only dry sump.

Jason