Do I need a 200 amp panel?

[ATL_Av8r]

I need a new panel, that's for sure. Got a few quotes on a bigger panel and didn't realize it was going to be as much as it is, and they all quoted upgrading to 200 amp as well. We have a 150amp panel now, it's just out of space to add anything. We don't have any issues at the moment except one screw loosened on the neutral bus where two neutrals weren't making full contact and was causing a flicker. Down the road I'd like a modest welder, a bigger compressor, and a table saw....but I'll never be running those at the same time. Furnaces are gas....water heater is gas....I keep a close eye on the thermostats in summer months (wife hates my bitching about it ). Basically, we don't typically have a bunch of stuff running at once. No planned expansion, either except building out the basement for an entertainment/theater room....which obviously I won't be using if I'm tooling around the garage.

[shofast]

200 amp service is the 'standard' service where I live right now. I have seen new houses elsewhere with less than that installed. To know exactly what you need for you you should just add up what you currently use, add your new tools, and add a little to that. A/C, range/ ice boxes, dryer...

[Slider300z]

Any thoughts about selling the house down the road? Upgrading to a 200 Amp panel now might be a resale point versus someone saying "Well we'd have to upgrade the panel before moving in".

[GeoffD]

Why would you spend all that money to upgrade your panel for equipment you hardly ever run? It's not like you are going to run a half dozen high current drain tools in your garage at the same time.

[barry2952]

The simplest solution would be to install a sub-panel in your garage. That way you don't have to worry about overloading existing circuits.

You could run a 60-amp sub-panel with 4-conductor (separate ground and neutral) service cable. You simply replace 2 single space breakers with a 60-watt 2-pole breaker. You can bump that as high as 100-amp if you think you need it. You can free up the two spaced by re-feeding the garage circuits from the new panel.

Unless your house is really huge and you run a bunch of stuff at once a 150-amp service is more than sufficient for most homes. When my generator is running I can run both a/c units, both boilers and the electric hot tub and all the lighting without approaching the 20KW generator's 83-amp per leg capacity.

How big is your home? Is it electric heat? Are your appliances gas or electric?

[ATL_Av8r]

Guess I should have included a little more backstory. I try not to because I tend to tell more than necessary

Currently have a 20-space 150 amp panel that is maxed out with no room to add circuits. There's an 80-amp subpanel that I believe feeds a sunroom addition the previous owner had built sans permit. The subpanel appears to be fed directly via the supply side on the main breaker....yes....the supply. (sorry if my terms are less-than-technical) I figured I needed a new panel as-is, but was unsure whether I should go ahead and install a 200amp panel now, or just get another 150 installed.

Barry, it's 2900sf livable plus 800sf garage....2 gas furnace, 2 A/C units, 1 regular-sized fridge, gas hwh, elec dryer, elec range but wife wants gas (and luckily kitchen is RIGHT above main gas line so that may be swapped someday)

[barry2952]

Guess I should have included a little more backstory. I try not to because I tend to tell more than necessary

Currently have a 20-space 150 amp panel that is maxed out with no room to add circuits. There's an 80-amp subpanel that I believe feeds a sunroom addition the previous owner had built sans permit. The subpanel appears to be fed directly via the supply side on the main breaker....yes....the supply. (sorry if my terms are less-than-technical) I figured I needed a new panel as-is, but was unsure whether I should go ahead and install a 200amp panel now, or just get another 150 installed.

Barry, it's 2900sf livable plus 800sf garage....2 gas furnace, 2 A/C units, 1 regular-sized fridge, gas hwh, elec dryer, elec range but wife wants gas (and luckily kitchen is RIGHT above main gas line so that may be swapped someday)

If you already have a sub-panel that's improperly wired (it may not be if it has its own main breaker) you might want to consider upgrading to a 200-amp service, but it sounds more like you need the spaces and not the amperage. As someone stated, you probably won't go wrong on resale, if that's a consideration.

It's an interesting experiment though, to draw a floor plan for your house showing all of the outlets and lights. Once you know what outlets and lights are on each circuit you may combine some circuits, as long as their VA rating doesn't exceed 80% of the circuit capacity. Technically, you're not supposed to splice inside a service panel. You can pull the two combined circuits out of the panel and combine them with a single feed in a junction box.

[GeoffD]

Currently have a 20-space 150 amp panel that is maxed out with no room to add circuits.

You can always use half height breakers if the panel allows it. I have a small panel in my summer place with several half-height breakers in it.

[Shamrock]

If you already have a sub-panel that's improperly wired (it may not be if it has its own main breaker) you might want to consider upgrading to a 200-amp service, but it sounds more like you need the spaces and not the amperage. As someone stated, you probably won't go wrong on resale, if that's a consideration.

It's an interesting experiment though, to draw a floor plan for your house showing all of the outlets and lights. Once you know what outlets and lights are on each circuit you may combine some circuits, as long as their VA rating doesn't exceed 80% of the circuit capacity. Technically, you're not supposed to splice inside a service panel. You can pull the two combined circuits out of the panel and combine them with a single feed in a junction box.

I am almost positive your allowed to splice in an electrical panel as long as you keep it to a minimum... unless there is a new code you can give me for reference.

[Mk1Racer]

If you already have a sub-panel that's improperly wired (it may not be if it has its own main breaker) you might want to consider upgrading to a 200-amp service, but it sounds more like you need the spaces and not the amperage. As someone stated, you probably won't go wrong on resale, if that's a consideration.

It's an interesting experiment though, to draw a floor plan for your house showing all of the outlets and lights. Once you know what outlets and lights are on each circuit you may combine some circuits, as long as their VA rating doesn't exceed 80% of the circuit capacity. Technically, you're not supposed to splice inside a service panel. You can pull the two combined circuits out of the panel and combine them with a single feed in a junction box.

Barry,

I didn't think you were allowed to split a service feed, and have it going to two separate panels? I thought one had to be a sub-panel of the other, and have the corresponding breaker in the main panel. The way I read the OP's description, the feed for the 80A sub-panel is coming directly off the service, before the main breaker in the 150A panel, rather than through an 80A breaker in the main panel.

OP, what's the price difference between a 150A panel and a 200A panel?

[barry2952]

Actually, I don't know that it's written. Inspectors in our area didn't allow it and they didn't allow doorbell transformers through knockouts in panels, either. I saw no harm in either, but didn't like inspector discretion call-backs. Some cities were tougher than others. Most of us just adjusted to worst case inspectors and did their bidding.

I remember the first journeyman I worked under said that a well-planned job required that there be no reason for panel splices.

You'll have to admit that it does get confusing when poorly marked or unmarked switch legs are run through service panels.

[robr2]

Actually, I don't know that it's written. Inspectors in our area didn't allow it and they didn't allow doorbell transformers through knockouts in panels, either. I saw no harm in either, but didn't like inspector discretion call-backs. Some cities were tougher than others. Most of us just adjusted to worst case inspectors and did their bidding.

Really? So you have to put a metal box into a circuit line and install the transformer?? I realize it's only $2 worth of material and 15 minutes but seems like a hassle.

[barry2952]

Typically they got installed on a j-box for a basement light. No extra material, so why fight?.

[Shamrock]

Yea, I'm pretty sure you allowed to splice in panels like grounding conductors or a branch circuit that got moved and isn't long enough.

That's the way it should be done for a sub panel, come off the main panel with a breaker to your sub panels breaker, there would be no way to turn it off unless you pull the meter?

[barry2952]

Yea, I'm pretty sure you allowed to splice in panels like grounding conductors or a branch circuit that got moved and isn't long enough.

That would be an extension of a single conductor. I don't think any inspector would object.

Here's a response from a master/contractor that I sub stuff to.

Well I have heard that too. Your not supposed to splice in the panel
however, I have never had a violation from doing that. What I'm saying is
splicing two circuits together with a pigtail going to the breaker. That way
you only have one wire on the breaker. Better than two wires on one breaker.
On an existing panel I would do it. On a new installation I would avoid it.
I hope this helped.

Maybe it is just a local thing.

[ATL_Av8r]

Some pics, for reference. Used phone....sorry for quality (or lack thereof). Georgia currently using 2011 NEC with no state-specific amendments

Main panel w/cover removed - the red and black coming out of the top of the main breaker lead to the top left knockout and over to the subpanel.



Close-up of the neutral and ground bus bars. You can see some are doubled- and tripled-up. This is legit?? Also, is it legal to use wirenuts inside the panel?


Sub-panel - I believe this goes to a sunroom addition added in the 90s. If so, it only feeds a rarely-used PTAC, 2 ceiling fans, and 6 duplex outlets of which we only use 1 for a TV and sat box.

[barry2952]

Some pics, for reference. Used phone....sorry for quality (or lack thereof). Georgia currently using 2011 NEC with no state-specific amendments

Main panel w/cover removed - the red and black coming out of the top of the main breaker lead to the top left knockout and over to the subpanel.



Close-up of the neutral and ground bus bars. You can see some are doubled- and tripled-up. This is legit?? Also, is it legal to use wirenuts inside the panel?


Sub-panel - I believe this goes to a sunroom addition added in the 90s. If so, it only feeds a rarely-used PTAC, 2 ceiling fans, and 6 duplex outlets of which we only use 1 for a TV and sat box.

Not legal. Can't double-up under one terminal, anyway. Needs a main. Simple solution. Take two circuits out of main box, insert 100-amp main breaker. Feed new 100-amp sub-panel and move the two circuits to the new panel. A typical 100-amp panel has 10 spaces. You would end up with 4 spares.

They've also combined copper and aluminum under the same termination. Rigged.

Problem solved.

[deucestudios]

That sub panel should technically have separate neutral and ground bus bars too, should be 4 wire to the main, not 3.

[Slayer]

Man, that's some sketchy ass wiring right there