Honda Tries to Figure out how to Remove Teh Suck

[compy222]

Why can't Honda start making 5 cylinder engines that rev to 8k producing say about 240-250hp?

because they already did it with a four cylinder engine?

[Jettavr666]

i dont think its the style that is hondas problem.

the problem is high revving small displacement motors are just not the future.

i know ... i know ... hard to hear, but its the truth.

There is a multitude of problems, and this is just one, but it does speak wonders. Honda has refused to update engines with DI, or forced induction. While they are not always perfect, small displacement turbo motors are generally better at meeting fuel economy demands than larger displacement NA engines.

Honda always used to be the company about great durable engineering, with decent but not knockout designs. People stayed with honda because they worked. The problem is now that other car makers have got VERY close to the level of honda durability that people love so much. Some redesigns like the 2012 civic just blow. The 2006 civic was dramatically different and fresh, and it worked. The 2012? not so much, not when there are cars like the Cruze, Elantra, and Focus.

[Dave Zero]

I am way late to the party, but I still want to register disagreement that's probably been voiced already.

The slide started in 1996 when the released a new Civic generation with rear drum brakes and dropped the multilink suspensions. I complained to friends Honda was becoming Ford (the Ford of 1996, that is - wear beancounters rule), and the article agrees 15 years later.

what?

96-00 was basically the 95 with refinements. Stronger suspension pieces, larger wheels, 1.6L instead of 1.5L.

It was basically a EG turned up to 11. It's double wishbone all around until 2001 then it went struts in the front.

Older Civics used beam rear axle.

[C4 A6]

because they already did it with a four cylinder engine?

Don't mind Klim, he's just an Audi TT fanboy that things the I5 is the greatest thing ever produced.

[Dave Zero]

The 2001 Civic was the first with a strut front suspension instead of the double wishbone. The rear suspension on North American Civics has always, and continues to be, multilink.

No they had rear double wishbones, but they just looked a little different than normal.

here's a picture.

http://www.hondanews.eu/img/directne...s/image010.jpg

[Professor Gascan]

There is a multitude of problems, and this is just one, but it does speak wonders. Honda has refused to update engines with DI, or forced induction. While they are not always perfect, small displacement turbo motors are generally better at meeting fuel economy demands than larger displacement NA engines.

Sure, in the EPA test loop. While I hesitate to call magazine tests "real world," Honda/Acura vehicles equipped with the SOHC 3.5 V6 and 5-speed auto have produced fuel economy numbers on par with vehicles equipped with DI, Turbo, and 7+8 speed autos, while being as fast or faster than a lot of them.

[Professor Gascan]

No they had rear double wishbones, but they just looked a little different than normal.

here's a picture.

http://www.hondanews.eu/img/directne...s/image010.jpg

They looked a little different because it was. It's a multi-link trailing arm more than a double wishbone.

[turbo_nine]

Don't mind Klim, he's just an Audi TT fanboy that things the I5 is the greatest thing ever produced.

Honda did put an I5 in the Vigor and old TL. It wasn't awesome, but it probably sounded interesting.

[Cooley]

While I hesitate to call magazine tests "real world," Honda/Acura vehicles equipped with the SOHC 3.5 V6 and 5-speed auto have produced fuel economy numbers on par with vehicles equipped with DI, Turbo, and 7+8 speed autos, while being as fast or faster than a lot of them.

To me this is the problem - the good enough disease - what if Honda would use DI, turbos, more ratios in their gearboxes. How much better could they be if Honda actually tried to be the best instead of being good enough?

[Dave Zero]

They looked a little different because it was. It's a multi-link trailing arm more than a double wishbone.

That was my impression when I got down and looked at the back of my 96 Civic. It has one big trailing arm, and upper arm, then another one to maintain the geometry. If you look at it though, the connecting points are parrallel, hence the designation.

Trailing arms tend to have some angle to protect the geometry. Suspension geometry is right up there with rocket science as far as I'm concerned. If an expert classifies it as double wishbone, I'm going to go ahead and go with what they say.

[Professor Gascan]

To me this is the problem - the good enough disease - what if Honda would use DI, turbos, more ratios in their gearboxes. How much better could they be if Honda actually tried to be the best instead of being good enough?

You can debate it either way you see fit: maybe Honda has understood that while these technologies look good on paper, the extra cost and complexity don't line up with the real world benefit yet.

Honda is very rarely a company on the bleeding edge of technology with their public offerings; they've always been about making the absolute most with existing technology, and innovating where they need to.

[compy222]

You can debate it either way you see fit: maybe Honda has understood that while these technologies look good on paper, the extra cost and complexity don't line up with the real world benefit yet.

Honda is very rarely a company on the bleeding edge of technology with their public offerings; they've always been about making the absolute most with existing technology, and innovating where they need to.

this is also true. however, they need to push something to get out of the funk their in. taking existing set-ups and developing a sportier vehicle might bring folks back the brand. think about what honda looked like in 2000 with the great 99-00 SI, the new s2000, and the NSX... compared to now... which we have an accord coupe and CRZ (snooze-fest).

[Jettavr666]

Sure, in the EPA test loop. While I hesitate to call magazine tests "real world," Honda/Acura vehicles equipped with the SOHC 3.5 V6 and 5-speed auto have produced fuel economy numbers on par with vehicles equipped with DI, Turbo, and 7+8 speed autos, while being as fast or faster than a lot of them.

umm no, they do decent, but they are not that great. My father has had the following acuras since 2000, 2000 rl, 2004 TL six speed, 2007 TL, 2010 TL.

He is not an aggressive driver, and while he will get close to the EPA numbers he never exceeds them.

Additionally look at new cars like the new 3-series. That has an EPA rating of 36 highway and is just as fast as most of hondas 3.5l vehicles

[a2a4raddo]

umm no, they do decent, but they are not that great. My father has had the following acuras since 2000, 2000 rl, 2004 TL six speed, 2007 TL, 2010 TL.

He is not an aggressive driver, and while he will get close to the EPA numbers he never exceeds them.

Additionally look at new cars like the new 3-series. That has an EPA rating of 36 highway and is just as fast as most of hondas 3.5l vehicles

new Tl is rated at 29MPG on the highway with its old tech SOHC V6 & 6-Speed auto transmission. This is better then or on par with the majority of its competitors, most of which have di, weigh less, and have more gears.

That said, the next gen TL will have Di.

[Toaster29]

new Tl is rated at 29MPG on the highway with its old tech SOHC V6 & 6-Speed auto transmission. This is better then or on par with the majority of its competitors, most of which have di, weigh less, and have more gears.

That said, the next gen TL will have Di.

The longer I own my J series, the happier I am with it. With headers this thing is a downright hoot to drive, and has ~285 crank hp. I recently drove 650 miles and averaged 30.1 over the entire trip. Thats with an average speed of around 70-75. The powertrain is dead nuts reliable, fun, cheap to operate, easy to work on, and makes excellent noises. Honda has had no need to really develop a new V6 family until now. It's time for DI, and DOHC.

[Jettavr666]

The longer I own my J series, the happier I am with it. With headers this thing is a downright hoot to drive, and has ~285 crank hp. I recently drove 650 miles and averaged 30.1 over the entire trip. Thats with an average speed of around 70-75. The powertrain is dead nuts reliable, fun, cheap to operate, easy to work on, and makes excellent noises. Honda has had no need to really develop a new V6 family until now. It's time for DI, and DOHC.

dont get me wrong i love the j-series v6's especially in 3.2 and 3.5l versions, that being said, they are long in the tooth at this point.

[Toaster29]

dont get me wrong i love the j-series v6's especially in 3.2 and 3.5l versions, that being said, they are long in the tooth at this point.

No, I completely agree. I was just saying I can see why they have stuck with it for as long as they have. It is time for a complete revamp from the ground up.

[TetsuoShima]

But isn't this quite an exciting time though? You kind of have to embrace the bad times in order to really appreciate the good times. With the Genesis Coupe and FR-S/BRZ I'm pretty sure Honda will jump back onto that ship of making sports/sporty cars that don't have to cost an arm and a leg or have >300hp in order for them to be relevant/fun.

This is a time where I think we'll be as close to the late 80's and 90's as ever. I'm really excited to see what kind of new engines Honda will start to come out with in the next few years, as well as their new and hopefully improved exterior/interior designs.

For some inspiration:

[SSLByron]

The longer I own my J series, the happier I am with it. With headers this thing is a downright hoot to drive, and has ~285 crank hp. I recently drove 650 miles and averaged 30.1 over the entire trip. Thats with an average speed of around 70-75. The powertrain is dead nuts reliable, fun, cheap to operate, easy to work on, and makes excellent noises. Honda has had no need to really develop a new V6 family until now. It's time for DI, and DOHC.

I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit this, but I had no idea the J-Series V6s were all SOHC until just now.

And I'm actually more impressed by them than I was before.

[Klim18]

Don't mind Klim, he's just an Audi TT fanboy that things the I5 is the greatest thing ever produced.

Nahh, not a fanboy just an engineering student. I was just thinking since Honda is really good with high revving 4 cylinder engines, adding another cylinder to their most commonly produced 4 cylinder engines will help Honda keep up (if not exceed) with today's and future standards. I am not sure about how much research and development that would take, but if it's its relatively minimum then why not?

[SSLByron]

Nahh, not a fanboy just an engineering student. I was just thinking since Honda is really good with high revving 4 cylinder engines, adding another cylinder to their most commonly produced 4 cylinder engines will help Honda keep up (if not exceed) with today's and future standards. I am not sure about how much research and development that would take, but if it's its relatively minimum then why not?

Even Volkswagen's bailing on their cheap-as-dirt five-cylinders. It would be foolish for Honda to throw money at a ground-up program like that.

[C4 A6]

Nahh, not a fanboy just an engineering student. I was just thinking since Honda is really good with high revving 4 cylinder engines, adding another cylinder to their most commonly produced 4 cylinder engines will help Honda keep up (if not exceed) with today's and future standards. I am not sure about how much research and development that would take, but if it's its relatively minimum then why not?

They'll have better luck with a high revving I6 than an I5.

[Klim18]

Even Volkswagen's bailing on their cheap-as-dirt five-cylinders. It would be foolish for Honda to throw money at a ground-up program like that.

You can't say it's fullish because you don't know who they would even turn out. It's just something different for the company, and knowing their reputation for building good N/A engines they can probably build a great 5 cylinder engine as well.

[Klim18]

They'll have better luck with a high revving I6 than an I5.

How so?

[50fridge]

You can't say it's fullish because you don't know who they would even turn out. It's just something different for the company, and knowing their reputation for building good N/A engines they can probably build a great 5 cylinder engine as well.

Is much as I like the 2.5 TFSI in the TT RS it would be pointless to develop a new 5 cylinder engine. Honda should work on a high revving 4 cylinder and V6. It would be cool if they did a inline 6 but the V6 would make more sense to develop.

[KahviVW]

Why can't Honda start making 5 cylinder engines that rev to 8k producing say about 240-250hp?

They already tried the I-5 route.

[Klim18]

Is much as I like the 2.5 TFSI in the TT RS it would be pointless to develop a new 5 cylinder engine. Honda should work on a high revving 4 cylinder and V6. It would be cool if they did a inline 6 but the V6 would make more sense to develop.

Honda has been working on the I4 and the V6 engines for many years now, and they are good at it but that's all they really have. Having something new that's build from ground up would be good for the company imo.

[50fridge]

Honda has been working on the I4 and the V6 engines for many years now, and they are good at it but that's all they really have. Having something new that's build from ground up would be good for the company imo.

What is the advantage of doing an I5 when I4's can make so much power now?

[TetsuoShima]

What is the advantage of doing an I5 when I4's can make so much power now?

There was a thread about I5's like a year ago or something and I think the general sentiment was that it's kind of pointless but it makes nice sounds.

Not quite as powerful as a V6 and not as fuel efficient as a 4 cyl. The turbo 4 is killed the 5 cyl, and is on its way to killing the 6 cyl too. But don't worry, we can rely on BMW to use their new fake sound technology to get nice noises.

[Professor Gascan]

How so?

An I6 is naturally balanced, an I5 isn't. I personally quite like them (had a 1992 Vigor GS with a manual,) but to the general public they're perceived as being an oddball. Likewise, there's no inherent benefit; a V6 is better in packaging, makes as much or more power for a given displacement, and is a known quantity to Joe Public.

[Jettavr666]

I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit this, but I had no idea the J-Series V6s were all SOHC until just now.

And I'm actually more impressed by them than I was before.

They are really good engines, but cannot be easily upgraded to things like direct injection. But for an over 10 year old engine design they are remarkably smooth and powerful

[BRealistic]

I find it comical that car companies refuse to admit they have a product problem until they can make a nice press release out of a "we are making changes to fix the problem" statement.

[VdubChaos]

How come we can't get anything like this?

I wouldn't want that either

From one extreme to other

I find it comical that car companies refuse to admit they have a product problem until they can make a nice press release out of a "we are making changes to fix the problem" statement.

Agreed.

If it was up to me. Identify how the problem occurred and who let it occur.

Unfortunately no executive or manager will admit to their own mistake and continue to feed the blandness Honda has been giving us.

[Air and water do mix]

An I6 is naturally balanced, an I5 isn't. I personally quite like them (had a 1992 Vigor GS with a manual,) but to the general public they're perceived as being an oddball. Likewise, there's no inherent benefit; a V6 is better in packaging, makes as much or more power for a given displacement, and is a known quantity to Joe Public.

I don't think a 5 is the way to go, but a V6 is not better in packaging in a transverse application when it comes to crash standards, the firewall and short noses. If there is enough width for the 5, then the 5 is much easier to deal with than a V6. That's a much bigger lump to have to protect the occupants from in a crash and it'd be much easier to get a 5 to submarine under the vehicle(again, if the compartment is wide enough).

[Jamez]

I don't mind Honda being a little behind on bells and whistles, they never were about gadgetry. They used to put the main function of a car (driving) right at the top of their priorities and that's pretty much what they need to do now if they really want to keep their reputation.

Jumping from say a Chevrolet to a Honda 10-20 years ago really was an eye opener. The Honda didn't have anything more than the Chevy in terms of equipment but it did something worth more than any one feature ever could : it drove exceptionally well. The driving position was perfect, the ergonomics irreproachable, the feel and feedback from the controls telepathic in comparison, that 1.6L felt more alive than a 2.2 or even a 3.1 ever could and what's more the car even started everyday and required little maintenance and repairs! Even the styling was reliable as it tented to age very well.

Jump into a Civic these days and you're greeted with an awkward driving position, numb steering, cheap materials and ho-hum driving experience.