Electronic Stability Control - How to turn off/disable?

[BsickPassat]

my MK4 GTI never had any braking when ESP kicked in.

the 01 GTI listed in your profile did not have ESP

just EDL/ASR

ESP was not offered until 2003

[Dawg90]

You guys have no idea what you're dealing with, especially at highway speeds where fast transients are encountered. The current PQ36, with its high rear wheel rates is extremely prone to sudden snap oversteer without ESC intervention. I don't care if your on public roads or on a track, if you don't have the "fast hands" skills to manage sudden snap oversteer, I guarantee that people will get hurt.

So what? What's next, non-defeatable computer controlled steering, so we never hurt ourselves? What is this, the nanny state? Seriously, if BMW can sell 500 hp rear drive cars with defeatable ESC, I think VW can too.

[<Platypus=]

I may never track the car though I'd like to and wouldn't turn it off if I do. As far as driving on the road I get to enjoy some spirited mountain drives but wouldn't need/want to turn it off. But damn if a grown ass man wants to hoon his car in a snow covered parking lot, I don't think it signals the end of civilized society. It doesn't matter how sophisticated the car is, people have been sliding there cars around since cars were invented. The bugger is that it's defeat able in other markets.

[BlazinVR]

the 01 GTI listed in your profile did not have ESP

just EDL/ASR

ESP was not offered until 2003

yep, ASR. it's been a while since i've been in the GTI, but ASR was perfect. i didn't have any stupid automatic braking to interfere with my driving.

I may never track the car though I'd like to and wouldn't turn it off if I do. As far as driving on the road I get to enjoy some spirited mountain drives but wouldn't need/want to turn it off. But damn if a grown ass man wants to hoon his car in a snow covered parking lot, I don't think it signals the end of civilized society. It doesn't matter how sophisticated the car is, people have been sliding there cars around since cars were invented. The bugger is that it's defeat able in other markets.

i couldn't have said it any better

[Arin@APR]

Please, ...this ego-driven, group-think rubbish, again and again and again has got to stop, and be replaced with some critical thinking.

You guys have no idea what you're dealing with, especially at highway speeds where fast transients are encountered. The current PQ36, with its high rear wheel rates is extremely prone to sudden snap oversteer without ESC intervention. I don't care if your on public roads or on a track, if you don't have the "fast hands" skills to manage sudden snap oversteer, I guarantee that people will get hurt. The point I've made time and again that the vast majority of drivers are incapable of driving as well as they think they can is no fantasy. The NHTSA and Euro NCAP has reams of research and data the proves this.

It's also disappointing that the justification for a full defeat seem to be hooliganism, which seems to be 180 degrees from the intended, more mature target demographic for the Golf R. I can't help but smell some 18-somethings still living with their parents using the anonymity afforded them by the internet.

Also, the notion that a chassis on which its yaw moments are electronically restricted is slower is rubbish as well. At high speeds, the lack of ESC on these chassis does not result in faster lap times, it results in a chassis that is extremely unforgiving and abrupt as its limits are approached, and the result is a DNF or crash. I've been there.



^^^^^What an utter, potentially disingenuous statement. I'm sure the internal comm at APR is not so bad as to have Arin out of the loop on this ...given the fact that the APR Koni Challenge ST cars all run a full ESC disable due to the high speed load transfer incompatibility of the production program with their slicks and their super high wheel rates. Why not just release what was done for the race cars to the public, Arin?

Here's something else for APR or anyone else to ponder from a liability point of view, and that's the "do not harm" aspect of FMVSS 126 which now prohibits any aftermarket parts mfrs. from offering parts that alter the chassis dynamics significantly to compromise the OEM ESC calibration.

It's time to stop being critical of something one does not understand and letting short-sighted entitlement and instant gratification define auto enthusiasm nowadays.

I'd suggest you follow your own advice.

ESP completely interferes with the owners ability to properly drive the vehicle they purchased on the track. I don't care about hooliganism. I care about the customers who use their car for all it's worth, and those are who we cater too.

After reading so many of your posts I have a feeling that at one point you maybe worked on an ESP program for an OEM? If so, get over it. No one's interested in your long winded rants.

[smd3]

So, how about APR steps in to help us out?

[Arin@APR]

So, how about APR steps in to help us out?

I don't want to offend TechEd

[GenMan]

Ed needs to join the Prius forums.

[droopy1592]

I don't want to offend TechEd

Too late lol

[DaLeadBull]

I don't want to offend TechEd

All of TechEd's posts have a very preachy type of tone. He strongly believes in what he believes.

Anyway, if you guys can give us the option to completely disable ESP essentially making the ESP in the R a two stage ESP, that would be great. If you can make it a part of the stage 1 chip tuning package, even better!

[Dutchmastr9]

i appreciate tech ed providing certain input but get off your high horse dude. You can do whatever you want with YOUR car, but dont tell me what to do with MY car. kthxbye. I would like to have the option to turn off esp completely if i choose

[12vdubber]

yep, ASR. it's been a while since i've been in the GTI, but ASR was perfect. i didn't have any stupid automatic braking to interfere with my driving.

pretty sure anti-slip regulation was 100% controlled with your brakes... but it was also 100% able to be turned off.


I have noticed my brakes squeak already. I'm starting to wonder if they are worn to the point of replacement b/c of this. We have brake wear sensors though, right?

[Jaydogg64]

So what? What's next, non-defeatable computer controlled steering, so we never hurt ourselves? What is this, the nanny state? Seriously, if BMW can sell 500 hp rear drive cars with defeatable ESC, I think VW can too.

defeatable- mabey , dangerous- i dont think so . The bugger really is that it is a 2 stage system in europe and can be turned off. people feel jipped. i hardly think vw would pull this feature in N.A. just because they think we are less responsible drivers. there has got to be more to this story! ....P.S. everyone's opinion is wanted and welcome but no corporate interests or gold trophy bragging ego's allowed, just debate's ,answer's and VW loving ! peace Jaydogg !

[BsickPassat]

pretty sure anti-slip regulation was 100% controlled with your brakes... but it was also 100% able to be turned off.


I have noticed my brakes squeak already. I'm starting to wonder if they are worn to the point of replacement b/c of this. We have brake wear sensors though, right?

ASR is a fuel cut
EDL is brake based, only up to 25 mph

[tzwizard]

Spicy thread.... I like it!

[BlazinVR]

I'd suggest you follow your own advice.

ESP completely interferes with the owners ability to properly drive the vehicle they purchased on the track. I don't care about hooliganism. I care about the customers who use their car for all it's worth, and those are who we cater too.

After reading so many of your posts I have a feeling that at one point you maybe worked on an ESP program for an OEM? If so, get over it. No one's interested in your long winded rants.

if you guys do find a way to remove ESP, you should make it so that there are two stages of shutting ESP off. hit the 'ESP OFF' button once, and it should remove automatic braking. hit the 'ESP OFF' button TWICE, and it completely turns ESP off. now THAT would be tits.

Ed needs to join the Prius forums.

this

pretty sure anti-slip regulation was 100% controlled with your brakes... but it was also 100% able to be turned off.


I have noticed my brakes squeak already. I'm starting to wonder if they are worn to the point of replacement b/c of this. We have brake wear sensors though, right?

na, i've pushed the GTI hard enough times to notice that there wasn't any braking involved. with the golf r, you can feel the brakes pulsating (if you take a turn hard enough and hold it).

[TechEd]

I'd suggest you follow your own advice.

ESP completely interferes with the owners ability to properly drive the vehicle they purchased on the track. I don't care about hooliganism. I care about the customers who use their car for all it's worth, and those are who we cater too.

After reading so many of your posts I have a feeling that at one point you maybe worked on an ESP program for an OEM? If so, get over it. No one's interested in your long winded rants.

Aside from the fact that this thread should have been locked due to repetitive, searchable content elsewhere....

If you’re serious, I totally overestimated your integrity as a rep for APR. Knowing what you know (and I know you know it...), not only are you disingenuous to begin with, with this tirade it’s obvious you’re playing and pandering to a captive audience with a thinly-veiled marketing schtick, and doing so while avoiding the tough answer we all want. This is an audience you’ve helped create, so it’s obvious you’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. The first reason you’d do well to cut this self-righteous act is because you know APR takes advantage of a demographic that includes people who are critical of things they don’t understand, that crave short-sighted entitlement and instant gratification.

Your rationale fails immediately because it’s purposely oversimplified, and ignores the fact that the vast majority of enthusiast drivers in the US and Canada are incapable of driving as well as they think they can, on track and off. Translation: The vast majority of drivers are incapable of “getting the most out of their cars” because they lack fundamental high performance driving skills. I have proof, as does the SCCA, NHTSA and EuroNCAP. It also ignores the fact that intermediate, smooth, more seasoned HPDE and autocross drivers on a good ESP tire are able to achieve considerable yaw angles (for trail braking rotation and lap time optimization) without ever experiencing a full-on ESC cross brake event. Heck, the same applies to a smooth driver on the street/highway regardless of tire because FMVSS 126 allows for ESC calibration peaks to be plotted exactly at and slightly beyond the chassis tractive limits (speed and rate dependent, of course), not before them. Lastly, it also ignores the fact that ESC intervention at very high track speeds with everything from ham-fisted newbie to an aggressive intermediate veteran can prevent expensive body damage and lame excuses to the insurance co. And don’t give us the tired, hook-and-sinker line about the need to disable ESC on race cars on slicks, with massive wheel rates, driven by highly-skilled pros as being the same reason to disable on cars used by HPDE amateurs. It’s because of the fundamental driving errors of newbies, and out of context comments by the likes of intermediate skilled enthu mag drivers and seasoned race drivers like Tiff Needell etc. that ESC has become a crutch for unskilled drivers and the target of the pitchforks and torches brigade.

So, what is the answer, Arin? If ESP (proper FMVSS 126 nomenclature is ESC) completely interferes with an owner’s ability to “get the most out of their cars” on track, then please explain why you have not released what was done to the APR race cars for street use? Maybe it has something to do with the relationships you’ve nurtured with Marcel, Clark and VWAG being very serious from a liability aspect, and that any lawyer can argue against risky waiver schemes because they never fully relieve one from co-respondent status in a suit when someone gets hurt? And as an aftermarket house the complexities of “Do not harm” in FMVSS 126 must be considered.

Also explain why it’s possible for me to set equal lap times at Waterford Hills with a 2009 Jetta on 245/17 Kumho XS (with the old high bias ESC off) and a beam axle/drum brake 2011 Jetta on the same tires with non-defeatable ESC? On laps with the 2009, no ASR or ESC events whatsoever were logged on my DiagRa. With the 2011, the key to setting equal lap times was that initial ASR and ESC events actually helped me adapt my driving to set a class winning time. While the current Bosch and Conti-Teves systems are indeed capable of doing what no human is capable with a conventional set of automotive controls (steering, brake, throttle), like apply and modulate each separate ABS circuit with different pressures, ESC was never a factor during my best runs because I did not let it be a factor. Everyone is capable of achieving the same results as my last run at Waterford Hills, and I’ve taken pride in being able to instruct amateurs that have desired to do so, as well as advise them on appropriate car prep that assists them in achieving competitive, even class-winning no ESC event laps/runs.

If you’d taken the time to apply critical thinking while reading my long posts, you’d realize that if I’m against anything, I’m against the polarization that exists on this topic. My goals were to provide insights into seeing things in the proper context, and how broad and variable the grey area is on this incredibly complex, extremely capable and adaptable system that actually serves as a skill development tool. As I’ve said before, everyone’s results with ESC will be different, dependent exclusively on tires and skills, and I’ve provided the proof why this is so with this post and this post . Okay, granted they're long reads, but nothing important worth sharing was ever covered in one 15 word paragraph. It's not my fault that this method of communicating is averse to the facetweet generation. I allow no generalizations in my narratives because that’s not the reality that you and others claim. I do this as an engineer because that’s the world all engineers live in and have to deal with. All I want to do is to offer a real world view beyond the typical vacuum-formed haze that surrounds the polarized perceptions of many enthusiasts. For many, a better understanding of the wide range of pros and cons helps them to appreciate how good cars like the Golf R and GTI actually are, as long as they drop all their crutches and baggage and choose to not disassociate themselves from the performance potential of their cars. To say that no one cares about these insights is amusing at best, given the notes of appreciation I get via IM.

That I know ASR and ESC code like your boffins know Bosch ECM code is irrelevant in light of FMVSS 126. I’ve witnessed that the criticism of ESC effects is excessive Kool-Aid consumption by inexperienced drivers who form their perceptions in a vacuum, and a huge crutch that inhibits inexperienced drivers from knuckling down and learning performance driving fundamentals. Unfortunately, there’s the whole living vicariously through the opinions and perceptions of others and misplaced context that prevents this.

Come clean and admit that I'm not the enemy, and that this is more complicated for everyone involved, ...you, the company and your demographic than is feasible from a business perspective, and that it’s risky for you to release the race car program for street use because of all the reasons I’ve stated above, and more.

Finally, in light of trying to nurture existing and acquire new relationships with OEMs, be careful with the attitude you portray online in response to a pragmatic and well-reasoned narrative. Important people might be watching.

[Jaydogg64]

so the FMVSS 126 provision law is the reason N.A. cars do not have the ability to disable ? to save us from ourselves ? and i guesse complete idiots on the road, alot of those. indeed this would,could and sounds fun but at the expence of saftey, you can kinda see where vw is coming from on this. plus who knows what makes or breaks decisions about these kind of things. reasons could be as far fetched as incentives$$$$$ for car company's to make their car's safer on the road. =cheaper import tariffs ,it's a crazy world out there. fact is law is the law , if a tuner cant release a possible tune for this because of law then let's let be , the R's are here now so take em and live with what the government regulates what we can drive , or become president and change it . peace Jaydogg!

[Dutchmastr9]

TechEd it seems youve been spending too much time at the beach. please take a shower so you can get that sand out of your vagina. Not everything is about lap times, do you not like having fun?

[Heinrich]

You guys should all knock it off with the adolescent and puerile personal attacks, which undermine the quality of the forum and the exchange of ideas.

[volksgti06]

I'm not going to read that post, too much

[droopy1592]

Aside from the fact that this thread should have been locked due to repetitive, searchable content elsewhere....

If you’re serious, I totally overestimated your integrity as a rep for APR. Knowing what you know (and I know you know it...), not only are you disingenuous to begin with, with this tirade it’s obvious you’re playing and pandering to a captive audience with a thinly-veiled marketing schtick, and doing so while avoiding the tough answer we all want. This is an audience you’ve helped create, so it’s obvious you’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. The first reason you’d do well to cut this self-righteous act is because you know APR takes advantage of a demographic that includes people who are critical of things they don’t understand, that crave short-sighted entitlement and instant gratification.

Your rationale fails immediately because it’s purposely oversimplified, and ignores the fact that the vast majority of enthusiast drivers in the US and Canada are incapable of driving as well as they think they can, on track and off. Translation: The vast majority of drivers are incapable of “getting the most out of their cars” because they lack fundamental high performance driving skills. I have proof, as does the SCCA, NHTSA and EuroNCAP. It also ignores the fact that intermediate, smooth, more seasoned HPDE and autocross drivers on a good ESP tire are able to achieve considerable yaw angles (for trail braking rotation and lap time optimization) without ever experiencing a full-on ESC cross brake event. Heck, the same applies to a smooth driver on the street/highway regardless of tire because FMVSS 126 allows for ESC calibration peaks to be plotted exactly at and slightly beyond the chassis tractive limits (speed and rate dependent, of course), not before them. Lastly, it also ignores the fact that ESC intervention at very high track speeds with everything from ham-fisted newbie to an aggressive intermediate veteran can prevent expensive body damage and lame excuses to the insurance co. And don’t give us the tired, hook-and-sinker line about the need to disable ESC on race cars on slicks, with massive wheel rates, driven by highly-skilled pros as being the same reason to disable on cars used by HPDE amateurs. It’s because of the fundamental driving errors of newbies, and out of context comments by the likes of intermediate skilled enthu mag drivers and seasoned race drivers like Tiff Needell etc. that ESC has become a crutch for unskilled drivers and the target of the pitchforks and torches brigade.

So, what is the answer, Arin? If ESP (proper FMVSS 126 nomenclature is ESC) completely interferes with an owner’s ability to “get the most out of their cars” on track, then please explain why you have not released what was done to the APR race cars for street use? Maybe it has something to do with the relationships you’ve nurtured with Marcel, Clark and VWAG being very serious from a liability aspect, and that any lawyer can argue against risky waiver schemes because they never fully relieve one from co-respondent status in a suit when someone gets hurt? And as an aftermarket house the complexities of “Do not harm” in FMVSS 126 must be considered.

Also explain why it’s possible for me to set equal lap times at Waterford Hills with a 2010 Jetta on 245/17 Kumho XS (with the old high bias ESC off) and a beam axle/drum brake 2011 Jetta on the same tires with non-defeatable ESC? On laps with the 2010, no ASR or ESC events whatsoever were logged on my DiagRa. With the 2011, the key to setting equal lap times was that initial ASR and ESC events actually helped me adapt my driving to set a class winning time. While the current Bosch and Conti-Teves systems are indeed capable of doing what no human is capable with a conventional set of automotive controls (steering, brake, throttle), like apply and modulate each separate ABS circuit with different pressures, ESC was never a factor during my best runs because I did not let it be a factor. Everyone is capable of achieving the same results as my last run at Waterford Hills, and I’ve taken pride in being able to instruct amateurs that have desired to do so, as well as advise them on appropriate car prep that assists them in achieving competitive, even class-winning no ESC event laps/runs.

If you’d taken the time to apply critical thinking while reading my long posts, you’d realize that if I’m against anything, I’m against the polarization that exists on this topic. My goals were to provide insights into seeing things in the proper context, and how broad and variable the grey area is on this incredibly complex, extremely capable and adaptable system that actually serves as a skill development tool. As I’ve said before, everyone’s results with ESC will be different, dependent exclusively on tires and skills, and I’ve provided the proof why this is so with this post and this post . Okay, granted they're long reads, but nothing important worth sharing was ever covered in one 15 word paragraph. It's not my fault that this method of communicating is averse to the facetweet generation. I allow no generalizations in my narratives because that’s not the reality that you and others claim. I do this as an engineer because that’s the world all engineers live in and have to deal with. All I want to do is to offer a real world view beyond the typical vacuum-formed haze that surrounds the polarized perceptions of many enthusiasts. For many, a better understanding of the wide range of pros and cons helps them to appreciate how good cars like the Golf R and GTI actually are, as long as they drop all their crutches and baggage and choose to not disassociate themselves from the performance potential of their cars. To say that no one cares about these insights is amusing at best, given the notes of appreciation I get via IM.

That I know ASR and ESC code like your boffins know Bosch code is irrelevant in light of FMVSS 126. I’ve witnessed that the criticism of ESC effects is excessive Kool-Aid consumption by inexperienced drivers who form their perceptions in a vacuum, and a huge crutch that inhibits inexperienced drivers from knuckling down and learning performance driving fundamentals. Unfortunately, there’s the whole living vicariously through the opinions and perceptions of others and misplaced context that prevents this.

Come clean and admit that I'm not the enemy, and that this is more complicated for everyone involved, ...you, the company and your demographic than is feasible from a business perspective, and that it’s risky for you to release the race car program for street use because of all the reasons I’ve stated above, and more.

Finally, in light of trying to nurture existing and acquire new relationships with OEMs, be careful with the attitude you portray online in response to a pragmatic and well-reasoned narrative. Important people might be watching.

Even with all of that said, and I'm sure many of us understand your point, many of us would like the OPTION/CHOICE to disable it. This is true whether it be snow, track, or whatever. Short sited entitlement and/or instant gratification has nothing to do with it. As a seasoned go-kart and motorcycle racer, I do have an understanding some set up dynamics and the risks of modifications, but at the same time some of us want to get down and dirty in snow cover lot or try our hand with a lack of interference at the track. While your knowledge and advice is appreciated by many, your view of the way things SHOULD be done can come off as elitist and almost political. Don't assume all of us are idiots and will immediate snap oversteer ourselves into oblivion.

[BsickPassat]

nothing in the standard says that ESP.... (since that term came out first, prior to the mandate) cannot be turned off temporarily.

it allows that option. but vw has been screwing people over on the ESP ever since they started using the mk60 controller, which includes his 2010 jetta, Which defeats his track times argument....

if I ever get back into rallycross, it won't be in a newer VW

[jjbravo1]

Please !
I'm still allowed in America to homebuild and register a blown hemi roadster kitcar without any safety nannies. Allow me the ability to disable a system that is not required for all cars but built for the masses whom the TechEd has decided to look down on.
Thank you.

[kw59]

I don't agree with tech ed's "opinion" for a second. Using his experience is nothing more than an appeal to authority logical fallacy. And along those lines of experience check out the ax school instructor bios where I got my training . One of the first things they said was to turn off the car nannies. http://www.soloprodrivingschool.com/staff

FWIW in my current performance car you'll immediately notice the nannies and they will slow you down in ax if you have ax experience. Thankfully I can turn them completely off.

[goforit2007]

I've been going to the track since 1999. I learned how to drive on a RWD car without any aids and drum brakes (yes, I'm dating myself)

I hated ABS when it 1st came out (still do actually) because I learned how to properly modulate brakes to stop (but I guess that is just me).

I hate the whole traction control/ESP thing even more. I prefer to have it all disabled.

These crutches just allow bad drivers to be lazy and no one has to really learn how to drive a car any more.

I've lost count of how many times I am just laughing at the Porsche driver's at the track with their rear brakes engaging from their PSM (Please Save Me) and then later hearing them bitch about how they wore down their rear brake pads down to metal in 1 track day.


If it was an option to buy the car without the stupid aids, I would have bought it that way. If it was an option to disable it via VagCom, that would be my 1st mod.


If APR can disable it, I'm in line to buy it!

That is all!

[DaLeadBull]

TechEd I've been one of your big supporters on the suspension discussions but I don't quite agree with you here.

We are only asking for the OPTION to completely disable the ESP/ESC. Those 'noobie" drivers can still have the ESP partially on if they choose to.

I also don't understand your liability point of view, other manufactures offer cars with fully defeatable ESP, so why can't VW? I understand VW is a fairly conservative company, but on an R model they should offer it imo.

Lastly, driving for enthusiasts is about fun right? Then why do you look down upon so called "hooliganism" as long as its done in a controlled setting or in a safe manner?

Once again, TechEd your posts are most welcome and I love reading them so don't take this personal.

[tmoe]

To me it looks like a cover your legal butt issue with VWoA, I'd vote for a button that really turns it off or at least the european two stage off. Maybe someone can integrate that code into the next ecu update, where we sign a legal waiver that we take responsibility for our actions.

Arin?

[CarbonR]

I don't agree with tech ed's "opinion" for a second. Using his experience is nothing more than an appeal to authority logical fallacy. And along those lines of experience check out the ax school instructor bios where I got my training . One of the first things they said was to turn off the car nannies. http://www.soloprodrivingschool.com/staff

FWIW in my current performance car you'll immediately notice the nannies and they will slow you down in ax if you have ax experience. Thankfully I can turn them completely off.

There is a HUGE difference between what's responsible at an AX school vs a carefully-run HPDE track event. The consequences of flubbing an AX corner? A couple of dead cones. The consequences of screwing up an 80 mph corner are rather more significant. Tire walls come to mind. Which is why you'll find TechEd is spot on correct about formal driving schools not encouraging (or allowing) newbies to turn off electronic assistants, until the driver has demonstrated competency and "graduated" to solo status.

There is also a HUGE difference between earlier generations of electronic aids and what's found on better sport-oriented cars today. My 2001 Lexus IS300 basically just shuts down the engine at the least sign of wheel spin. It is truly not possible to drive it in a spirited fashion without disengaging the nanny. My 2012 Golf R is another thing entirely. I have not yet had it on the track, but I can assure you that on public roads the only way I can force the nanny to intervene is to emulate ham-handed novice bumbling that in no way would result in a fast time, AX or track.

I've said this before on this forum: listen to the car. If you carefully attend to what you're doing when ESC comes on, and learn to avoid this happening, you'll be faster as well as safer.

[CarbonR]

I hated ABS when it 1st came out (still do actually) because I learned how to properly modulate brakes to stop (but I guess that is just me).

I don't understand why you would hate ABS. Drivers who know how to threshold brake can still use the technique on any car with ABS, and obtain shorter stopping distances than possible with the electronics, when conditions allow. But conditions don't always allow. The most skilled pro in the world can't modulate braking left to right. If my tires were on dissimilar surfaces, and I were staring right into that baby carriage in the crosswalk, I would be happy to have ABS.

[webcrawlr]

While I respect you opinion TechEd I do think you are missing the point, which isn't to say there is no value to ESC. Clearly there is and I think it's a fantastic idea. However, I bought an "R", a car that's supposed to be an enthusiasts car. A car that is supposed to represent the pinnacle of VW performance. Why, when others around the world get two stage systems, would you ship the R with a single stage to the US? We are given the choice to defeat ESC with other brands in the US and with VW abroad. What gives?

The protecting us from ourselves argument is silly to me. The government already has more control than they should IMO. The last thing I need them telling me to do is not oversteer on a closed course.

Others, this could be a productive thread so let's keep it civil. Attack the issue not the person.

[jjbravo1]

While I respect you opinion TechEd I do think you are missing the point, which isn't to say there is no value to ESC. Clearly there is and I think it's a fantastic idea. However, I bought an "R", a car that's supposed to be an enthusiasts car. A car that is supposed to represent the pinnacle of VW performance. Why, when others around the world get two stage systems, would you ship the R with a single stage to the US? We are given the choice to defeat ESC with other brands in the US and with VW abroad. What gives?

The protecting us from ourselves argument is silly to me. The government already has more control than they should IMO. The last thing I need them telling me to do is not oversteer on a closed course.

Others, this could be a productive thread so let's keep it civil. Attack the issue not the person.

^ This...

Otherwise, lets just have Cal Tech students bury a wire in the racetrack and have the computers of the car follow the signal safely varying and restricting our inputs for us. After all, THEY know what's best...

[surefooted]

There is a HUGE difference between what's responsible at an AX school vs a carefully-run HPDE track event. The consequences of flubbing an AX corner? A couple of dead cones. The consequences of screwing up an 80 mph corner are rather more significant. Tire walls come to mind. Which is why you'll find TechEd is spot on correct about formal driving schools not encouraging (or allowing) newbies to turn off electronic assistants, until the driver has demonstrated competency and "graduated" to solo status.

Using your exact scenario, I think the problem most people have with TechEd's comments is that not everyone is a newbie (once again, your scenario). Some people HAVE "graduated to solo status."

While I understand TechEd's point and the fact that it does apply to 99% of all drivers (yes, most people aren't as skilled as they believe, even during track days). However, there are still the 1% that can drive the isht out a car and would like to fully defeat all aids. Why do you not address those people TechEd? How would you pacify them in your scenario? Or is it a F them for the greater good?

[goforit2007]

I don't understand why you would hate ABS. Drivers who know how to threshold brake can still use the technique on any car with ABS, and obtain shorter stopping distances than possible with the electronics, when conditions allow. But conditions don't always allow. The most skilled pro in the world can't modulate braking left to right. If my tires were on dissimilar surfaces, and I were staring right into that baby carriage in the crosswalk, I would be happy to have ABS.

Some manufacturer's have really crappy ABS that engages long before it should. There is a reason that many have what is known as 'race' ABS that engages at a different point. Although I never had an issue with ABS (never felt it engage) on my former 2004 R32 at the track, I lost track at how often and how easy the NISSAN or Infiniti ABS was to engage at any time too quickly for no good reason (anyone who has ever tried to drive an Infiniti G20 with ABS at a track would understand). I don't flat spot tires on the Infiniti either so it isn't a matter of not knowing how to threshold brake in the case of piss-poor factory ABS. Winter with ABS on that car was horrid as well as many can attest (just engages too quickly and easily) which is why it has been completely removed from our g20 and many with street G20 Infiniti's pull the fuse to be able to drive in winter without massively increased stopping distances. The bottom line is I can stop faster and shorter distance in winter or on the track without ABS on the Infiniti G20 because I do know how to threshold brake!

I've gotten used to NOT having ABS at the track actually due to it not being allowed in Spec Miata and not having it in the 1990 Mustang we track or even the Sentra or Infiniti G20 we all track.


I would just rather NOT have it so I'd be perfectly happy with a disable all button!

[xalfa]

Some guys they just give up living
And start dying little by little, piece by piece,
Some guys come home from work and wash up,
And go racin' in the street.

It seems that TechEd may have reached the age where he has given up living. I'm not there yet. For me, living still requires occasional opposite-lock, @ss-out, tire-squealing hooniganism. The video below speaks eloquently to the pure joy of said activity.