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    Thread: Electronic Stability Control - How to turn off/disable?

    1. Member
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      03-12-2012 04:30 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by BRSomm View Post
      If you're arguing that you simply want to be able to hoon around, then the nannies need to be defeatable, but arguing that you're faster without them?
      I'm arguing exactly the opposite. I'm not a racer and could honestly care less about seconds on a 2 minute lap. I've never paid attention to lap times when I have been on the track and mine probably SUCK. But I want to have the option to be fully in control of my car and have my skill, not software, determine how fast I can drive. I also want the option to hang the @ss out when I feel like it because that is a very slow but very fun thing to do.

      If the goal of the engineers was to make even the worst drivers marginally faster around a track then they should have offered DSG only.

      VW: Screw your desire for "involvement" and "enjoyment" and your irrational need for a "third pedal." We know even the best of you will be tenths faster on average around a track with the DSG, and you will be safer while doing so. So that is all you get. Sorry.

    2. 03-12-2012 04:36 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      I have a North American and ROW German Golf R at APR right now and I can confirm that both cars only disable ASR. ESP will not turn off by pressing the button. This even includes holding the button for lengthy periods of time.

      Unless the controllers on the ROW German spec Golf R were messed with, looks like Golf R's all over the world are like this.
      Arin, multiple articles are saying that VW is going to change that or did change that at some point. When was your ROW golf built?

    3. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-12-2012 05:45 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by surefooted View Post
      Arin, multiple articles are saying that VW is going to change that or did change that at some point. When was your ROW golf built?
      I'll check tomorrow but this R's been in the US since before october 2010, so it's not new.
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      03-12-2012 06:29 PM #104
      Seems like the sketchy information available now says hold out for a build date >= 5/12.

    5. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-12-2012 06:34 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by xalfa View Post
      Seems like the sketchy information available now says hold out for a build date >= 5/12.
      I wouldn't believe news articles unless I've tested and confirmed.
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      03-12-2012 07:27 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      I wouldn't believe news articles unless I've tested and confirmed.
      No doubt. Hence the term "sketchy."

    7. 03-12-2012 08:39 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by xalfa View Post
      Seems like the sketchy information available now says hold out for a build date >= 5/12.
      Where did you read that? The autocar article written in early 2011 references May or last year. Autocar is a pretty reputable mag.

    8. Member Tailwagger's Avatar
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      03-12-2012 09:58 PM #108
      Frankly, all this is academic. If its not already true, give it another few years and all cars will have similar technology and it will never be fully defeatable. And if you think engine mods might void your insurance...

      Regardless, as long as the TC can be fully defeated, the fact that you can't hang it out sideways for a few hundred feet is about all you might miss, but to me this is a pretty small compromise for what TE describes as challenging at behavior at high speed. Theres a big difference in talent level managing going sideways at 30 versus a 130. I have a reasonable amount of experience driving a tail happy car quickly, but I'll be honest and say, I really have no desire to experience such behavior on track, let alone the road.

      But I think there's something truly being missed in all this. The art of performance driving is the art of adapting to what you have under you. While it might be fun for an afternoon to fully defeat these things, in the end, if you fancy yourself as any good, you simply are going to need to learn just how to drive around these systems. Take it as a new challenge, mainly as you have to. Even Porsches these days arent fully defeatable, its simply the world in which we live.
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    9. 03-13-2012 12:50 AM #109
      Interesting read and opinions. A stock/near stock MKIV R32, with its relatively flexible chassis, can be driven all day on track without ESP at high speed with little drama (unless one does something really out of the ordinary), but supposedly the MKVI R has a tendency to go into snap over steer if ESP were to be completely disabled. Just a thought, but it seems a bit odd that a decade newer chassis is less stable without the electronic aids keeping things in check. I wonder if this setup is intentional and allows for quicker cornering and faster lap times.

      Will be interesting to see if VW changes some suspension components (stiffer rear bar, ala 1st gen Audi TT, and/or change of spring rates to help neutralize snap over steer ) if/when they allow ESP to be fully defeated.
      Last edited by Back2Dubs; 03-13-2012 at 12:59 AM.

    10. 03-13-2012 06:33 AM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by BRSomm View Post
      A good argument could be made that if you learned to drive without engaging the nannies you'd be faster.

      Tiff felt faster in the Seat but was actually slower.

      If you're arguing that you simply want to be able to hoon around, then the nannies need to be defeatable, but arguing that you're faster without them?
      You are making a presumption that ESP was the reason why the R was faster. Could it not of been the AWD, or a variety of other factors considering they are not the same car?

      Sad to think my ROW R will be arriving at the end of March, so i am probably just going to miss out on the special button
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      03-13-2012 08:22 AM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by englebert View Post
      You are making a presumption that ESP was the reason why the R was faster.
      Bert, you've got the finest out-of-the-box track day car ever built with that Elise of yours. That car is simply the very best way to explore driving dynamics unfettered by electronic assists. Jealous! My situation doesn't allow me to own multiple cars. Hope you're enjoying it.

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      03-13-2012 09:39 AM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by Back2Dubs View Post
      supposedly the MKVI R has a tendency to go into snap over steer if ESP were to be completely disabled.
      Is there any evidence of this other than TechEd's posts?

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      03-13-2012 09:51 AM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by Dawg90 View Post
      Is there any evidence of this other than TechEd's posts?
      I have not been able to diagnose this alleged characteristic while driving on public roads (which limits how far I'm willing to push). As I've posted elsewhere, the only way I've been able to get the ESC to intervene is by deliberately emulating bad driving technique. In other words, the ESC is not overly intrusive. I'll have the R on a track on March 31st, which will be my first opportunity to push the envelope. Based on what I've observed to date, I'm optimistic that good technique will allow me to "drive around" the ESC. Stay tuned.

    14. Member droopy1592's Avatar
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      03-13-2012 12:37 PM #114
      I get under steer with deliberate poor technique. Only snap oversteer I've seen is fwd w/ thick rear sway in this chassis. I get a touch of oversteer w/ abs fuse pulled under full throttle 1st/2nd very acute angle turns and they are easily correctable with mild counter steer. Haven't experienced any issues under high speed turns. But this is 7-8/10ths.
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      03-13-2012 02:12 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by droopy1592 View Post
      I get under steer with deliberate poor technique. Only snap oversteer I've seen is fwd w/ thick rear sway in this chassis. I get a touch of oversteer w/ abs fuse pulled under full throttle 1st/2nd very acute angle turns and they are easily correctable with mild counter steer. Haven't experienced any issues under high speed turns. But this is 7-8/10ths.
      Could be the snap oversteer appears when running R compounds.

    16. Member droopy1592's Avatar
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      03-13-2012 02:53 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by Dawg90 View Post
      Could be the snap oversteer appears when running R compounds.
      Yeah I'm not making any definitive statements as my ambition exceeds my current skill and ability.

      I can do some mean low gear 4 wheel slides though!
      In many ways then this car is like herpes. Great fun catching it but not so much fun living with it every day. - Jeremy Clarkson

    17. Member BlazinVR's Avatar
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      03-20-2012 10:17 PM #117
      Arin - got any news yet?
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      Quote Originally Posted by SaleenEatedUrVDubb View Post
      Hey guys I have a 2.0 but I can't really hear my Turbo. What BoV should I get?

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      03-21-2012 07:23 AM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by Dawg90 View Post
      Is there any evidence of this other than TechEd's posts?
      You want evidence? Okay, enter a corner a little too hot and pull your foot off of the throttle. What happens? All the weight shifts to the front, and the rear *snaps* out. ESP/ESC/whatever-its-called will brake the outside tires to try to bring the car back into line. Without it, you'd have to react very quickly to get the car back in line.

      --Chuck--

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      03-21-2012 07:47 AM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by speedbump2 View Post
      You want evidence? Okay, enter a corner a little too hot and pull your foot off of the throttle. What happens? All the weight shifts to the front, and the rear *snaps* out. ESP/ESC/whatever-its-called will brake the outside tires to try to bring the car back into line. Without it, you'd have to react very quickly to get the car back in line.

      --Chuck--
      that anecdotal evidence doesn't work, because in the situation you described, all the weight won't shift up front.... you have to hit the brakes to transfer the weight.

      that is a method in loose surface racing to get the rear end to swing around for a tight turn.
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      03-21-2012 10:30 AM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by BsickPassat View Post
      that anecdotal evidence doesn't work, because in the situation you described, all the weight won't shift up front.... you have to hit the brakes to transfer the weight...
      It does work, and you don't have to touch the brakes, but if you do it will amplify the effect.

      The weight shifts to the front easily because most of the driveline weight is in the front of the car, and most of the engine weight is ahead of the front axle. All you have to do is pop your foot off of the accelerator at speed in a tight turn, and the rear end will swing right around.

      Try it on a tight interstate cloverleaf sometime.

      --Chuck--

    21. Member johannes's Avatar
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      03-21-2012 10:50 AM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by speedbump2 View Post
      You want evidence? Okay, enter a corner a little too hot and pull your foot off of the throttle. What happens? All the weight shifts to the front, and the rear *snaps* out. ESP/ESC/whatever-its-called will brake the outside tires to try to bring the car back into line. Without it, you'd have to react very quickly to get the car back in line.

      --Chuck--
      Of course, some of us prefer to use this "feature" (oversteer) on certain turns to help set up what we want next more quickly

      (disclaimer: I have seen more people than I'd like to count lose it (particularly on an off camber turn at Grattan Raceway) due to lift-throttle oversteer...

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      03-21-2012 10:56 AM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by johannes View Post
      Of course, some of us prefer to use this "feature" (oversteer) on certain turns to help set up what we want next more quickly ...
      A stiffer rear sway bar was the "Best Bang For The Buck" mod on the '04 R32 because
      it would decrease the effort to get LTO to rotate for a corner.
      But, the other side of that coin is, it made it a little dicey on the street if someone who
      wasn't aware of it was driving (i.e. parking valet, garage mechanic, wife/SO, etc)

      --Chuck--

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      03-21-2012 10:57 AM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by speedbump2 View Post
      It does work, and you don't have to touch the brakes, but if you do it will amplify the effect.

      The weight shifts to the front easily because most of the driveline weight is in the front of the car, and most of the engine weight is ahead of the front axle. All you have to do is pop your foot off of the accelerator at speed in a tight turn, and the rear end will swing right around.

      Try it on a tight interstate cloverleaf sometime.

      --Chuck--
      The rear suspension, as I mentioned earlier is designed to do that... however, it's not a snap oversteer situation like you would see in a car like the Porsche 911.

      I've done that in autocross... never spun out though....
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    24. Member johannes's Avatar
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      03-21-2012 11:39 AM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by speedbump2 View Post
      A stiffer rear sway bar was the "Best Bang For The Buck" mod on the '04 R32 because
      it would decrease the effort to get LTO to rotate for a corner.
      But, the other side of that coin is, it made it a little dicey on the street if someone who
      wasn't aware of it was driving (i.e. parking valet, garage mechanic, wife/SO, etc)

      --Chuck--
      I had one on my MKIV as well I plan on taking the R to the track as well, but I'm just not sure how to proceed with my set-up.
      If I can get the stability control off, easy...245 R888s and Carbotech XP20s. Roll with the OEM suspension for the first day, and proceed to mod it from there based on my preferences...

      Or, live with the ESC on and maybe use 235 0r 245 RE-11s and XP10s. Throw on an alignment with overall grip/stability in mind (although the rears already look pretty toed in). Then drive it (like TechEd wants me too) smooth 'n' fast trying to avoid ESC interventions

      Right now, I think my best bet is to wait for track feedback from the Southern guys who should be out there now

    25. Member Jouko Haapanen's Avatar
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      03-21-2012 01:02 PM #125
      Just to clarify...By holding the button down a few seconds, do the US vehicles get this display text?


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