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    Thread: Electronic Stability Control - How to turn off/disable?

    1. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-21-2012 01:06 PM #126
      Quote Originally Posted by Jouko Haapanen View Post
      Just to clarify...By holding the button down a few seconds, do the US vehicles get this display text?

      Neither US nor the early German spec Golf R I have in house does this while holding down the ESP button.
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      03-21-2012 01:06 PM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by Jouko Haapanen View Post
      Just to clarify...By holding the button down a few seconds, do the US vehicles get this display text?

      No but that's the smoking gun a lot of us have been looking for! Thanks for posting that pic.

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      03-21-2012 01:07 PM #128
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      Neither US nor the German spec Golf RI have in house does this while holding down the ESP button.
      Arin, I believe only 2012 models with build dates after May 2011 can disable the ESP.

    4. Member Jouko Haapanen's Avatar
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      03-21-2012 01:16 PM #129
      My car is (obviously) a Canadian spec car. The first truckload came in yesterday, and my car happened to be there. The production date for the car is Feb 7, 2012. I haven't had a chance to try the "ESC off", as the car was promptly dispatched to H2Sport for some extra lovin'.

      As other Canadians start getting their Rs later this week, it will be interesting to see what their findings are...

    5. 03-21-2012 02:00 PM #130
      Quote Originally Posted by Jouko Haapanen View Post
      My car is (obviously) a Canadian spec car. The first truckload came in yesterday, and my car happened to be there. The production date for the car is Feb 7, 2012. I haven't had a chance to try the "ESC off", as the car was promptly dispatched to H2Sport for some extra lovin'.

      As other Canadians start getting their Rs later this week, it will be interesting to see what their findings are...
      thx jouko for posting this... I was hoping that our canadian spec cars will have 2 stage ESP.
      Maybe they considered that we have a lot of snow here, and possible lot of fun with esp off ?

      I'm waiting for mine in few days. Probably same build date or closed to yours.

      whooohoooo

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      03-21-2012 03:02 PM #131
      Quote Originally Posted by speedbump2 View Post
      It does work, and you don't have to touch the brakes, but if you do it will amplify the effect.

      The weight shifts to the front easily because most of the driveline weight is in the front of the car, and most of the engine weight is ahead of the front axle. All you have to do is pop your foot off of the accelerator at speed in a tight turn, and the rear end will swing right around.

      Try it on a tight interstate cloverleaf sometime.

      --Chuck--
      Have you done this in the R, or just the R32?

    7. Member johannes's Avatar
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      03-21-2012 03:51 PM #132
      Quote Originally Posted by Jouko Haapanen View Post
      Just to clarify...By holding the button down a few seconds, do the US vehicles get this display text?

      OK, I find this rather annoying. VW gives our wonderful Northern neighbors the ability to defeat stability control but not us.

      Someone tell me this is VAGCOMable....pretty please

    8. Member droopy1592's Avatar
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      03-21-2012 04:03 PM #133
      Quote Originally Posted by Jouko Haapanen View Post
      Just to clarify...By holding the button down a few seconds, do the US vehicles get this display text?

      I feel cheated.
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    9. Member DaLeadBull's Avatar
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      03-21-2012 04:23 PM #134
      It shouldn't be that hard to copy the software over if APR can get hold of a euro spec Golf R with the 2 stage ESP.

    10. Member Tailwagger's Avatar
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      03-21-2012 07:32 PM #135
      Quote Originally Posted by BsickPassat View Post
      that anecdotal evidence doesn't work, because in the situation you described, all the weight won't shift up front.... you have to hit the brakes to transfer the weight.

      that is a method in loose surface racing to get the rear end to swing around for a tight turn.
      One need not transfer "all" the weight (if you did the car would be sliding on its nose). If you cornering at or near the limits of the tires, a lift at speed is more than enough for the rears to lose grip. People spin all the time on track from such behavior. As others have mentioned, the R is a sort of inverted 911, there's a relatively big lump out on the bumper which with softish springs, motor mounts, etc should amplify the effect. At high speed, recall TE said this was a high speed trait, as presumably the R is not a positive downforce car, if the rear is sufficiently light the effect could easily be further magnified. Who among us knows the DF figures front and rear at say 110? What TE described sound quite reminiscent of the early TT spoiler debacle.

      I have no reason to doubt TE, but for those that do, just head over to WGI, go flat out of 1, as per usual stay flat through 2. You should be at least 110 as you turn in for the esses and go over the hump. Lift to taste. Its uphill, you'll have a fighting chance. Please have some form of video and logging on board so we can amuse ourselves with video and enlighten ourselves with the data traces.

      Having seen the carnage that can occur up in that part of the track, I know I ain't going to try that in an R or any other car with or with out esp. But perhaps someone here wants to sacrifice their R for science. If nothing else, you'll get a lot of youtube hits.
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    11. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-21-2012 07:42 PM #136
      Quote Originally Posted by UncannySkill View Post
      Arin, I believe only 2012 models with build dates after May 2011 can disable the ESP.
      I believe that's what I read too.

      So who has one? If someone has one, shoot me an email and we'll go over a few things....
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      03-21-2012 08:09 PM #137
      Quote Originally Posted by Tailwagger View Post
      One need not transfer "all" the weight (if you did the car would be sliding on its nose). If you cornering at or near the limits of the tires, a lift at speed is more than enough for the rears to lose grip. People spin all the time on track from such behavior. As others have mentioned, the R is a sort of inverted 911, there's a relatively big lump out on the bumper which with softish springs, motor mounts, etc should amplify the effect. At high speed, recall TE said this was a high speed trait, as presumably the R is not a positive downforce car, if the rear is sufficiently light the effect could easily be further magnified. Who among us knows the DF figures front and rear at say 110? What TE described sound quite reminiscent of the early TT spoiler debacle.

      I have no reason to doubt TE, but for those that do, just head over to WGI, go flat out of 1, as per usual stay flat through 2. You should be at least 110 as you turn in for the esses and go over the hump. Lift to taste. Its uphill, you'll have a fighting chance. Please have some form of video and logging on board so we can amuse ourselves with video and enlighten ourselves with the data traces.

      Having seen the carnage that can occur up in that part of the track, I know I ain't going to try that in an R or any other car with or with out esp. But perhaps someone here wants to sacrifice their R for science. If nothing else, you'll get a lot of youtube hits.
      the big lump of engine up front with its forward bias weight distribution.... you get understate more.... add in the haldex system.... still get the understeer primarily. audi S4/5/6/8 and rs.... understeer with the heavily lump forward the axles.....

      rwd cars with heavy lumps up front that plows include C63 AMG and IS-F.....

      getting the rear to swing around quickly is fun though on rallycross.... whether it's left foot braking or ebrake
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      03-21-2012 09:10 PM #138
      Quote Originally Posted by BsickPassat View Post
      the big lump of engine up front with its forward bias weight distribution.... you get understate more.... add in the haldex system.... still get the understeer primarily. audi S4/5/6/8 and rs.... understeer with the heavily lump forward the axles.....

      rwd cars with heavy lumps up front that plows include C63 AMG and IS-F.....

      getting the rear to swing around quickly is fun though on rallycross.... whether it's left foot braking or ebrake
      We're not talking about the initial or general tendency, we're talking about what happens when you've cranked in lock and then lift, i.e how susceptible is this car/setup to lift throttle snap oversteer? According to TE, at high speed, it is. By definition, when understeering there is more steering lock applied than the front tires can respond to. Lifting sends more weight to the front and therefore that end gains grip at the expense of the rear. If, upon lifting, there's sufficient xfer of the grip budget, the fronts now have the power to turn and the rears no longer have the power to resist. Get the car rotating fast enough with insufficient rear traction and without immediate countersteer, the car can snap spin.
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      03-21-2012 09:18 PM #139
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      I believe that's what I read too.

      So who has one? If someone has one, shoot me an email and we'll go over a few things....
      The programming difference its probably in the ABS Pump/Control unit. The best bet to start is to look at the part number of the guys car that can turn off the ESC and then looking at rest of US spec Golf R's. I have a good feeling the part number is different.

    15. 03-21-2012 09:25 PM #140
      What if it were a hidden vag-com bit - anyone call Russ Tech?

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      03-21-2012 09:32 PM #141
      Quote Originally Posted by Tailwagger View Post
      One need not transfer "all" the weight (if you did the car would be sliding on its nose). If you cornering at or near the limits of the tires, a lift at speed is more than enough for the rears to lose grip. People spin all the time on track from such behavior. As others have mentioned, the R is a sort of inverted 911, there's a relatively big lump out on the bumper which with softish springs, motor mounts, etc should amplify the effect. At high speed, recall TE said this was a high speed trait, as presumably the R is not a positive downforce car, if the rear is sufficiently light the effect could easily be further magnified. Who among us knows the DF figures front and rear at say 110? What TE described sound quite reminiscent of the early TT spoiler debacle.

      I have no reason to doubt TE, but for those that do, just head over to WGI, go flat out of 1, as per usual stay flat through 2. You should be at least 110 as you turn in for the esses and go over the hump. Lift to taste. Its uphill, you'll have a fighting chance. Please have some form of video and logging on board so we can amuse ourselves with video and enlighten ourselves with the data traces.

      Having seen the carnage that can occur up in that part of the track, I know I ain't going to try that in an R or any other car with or with out esp. But perhaps someone here wants to sacrifice their R for science. If nothing else, you'll get a lot of youtube hits.
      You can spin any car with clumsy application of throttle while cornering at the limit - and while I can buy that the R32 is prone to this, the R motor is considerably lighter - so unless people have already been taking their R's to the track already and spinning them, what is the claim based on?

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      03-21-2012 10:11 PM #142
      Quote Originally Posted by DaLeadBull View Post
      I also don't understand your liability point of view, other manufactures offer cars with fully defeatable ESP, so why can't VW? I understand VW is a fairly conservative company, but on an R model they should offer it imo.
      That's also what I don't understand. Plenty of companies run either multiple layers of ESC, and finally an off button.

      Quote Originally Posted by DaLeadBull View Post
      Once again, TechEd your posts are most welcome and I love reading them so don't take this personal.
      Agreed. Since I spend a fair amount of time in TCL and OT, it's refreshing to see well constructed posts. Even though I don't agree with everything he says, it's still interesting to read, informative, not the usual dimwitted banter.

      Over the summer I work various events for Lotus, and spend a lot of time in booths talking about them, and other times I get to work track days for prospective owners. A system like the Evora's would be great to have in this application. In an Evora the system can be driven around completely if you're nice and smooth. Clicking the sport button raises the rev limit, sharpens the throttle response, and raises the ESC intervention threshold. To an extent, it'll allow power on oversteer, lift off oversteer, aggressive trail braking, tire howling awful understeer etc. Basically, the only thing that it safety nets is drifting, or totally fubar'ing a corner or transition.

      Finally, you can turn it off if you so desire.

      A system like that would be preferable to me, as in Sport mode, your own driving mistakes will cost you time without triggering ESC intervention, but those big whoopsie moments are harder to encounter. You can get the Evora pretty out of shape in Sport, which makes me feel like I'm not under the watchful eye of someone who hates fun, but I also know if I have a Harry Ham Hands moment my chances of wadding the car are slim.

      Plus, with an off button, you can man handle the car around if you so desire, as let's be honest, non car enthusiast passengers aren't impressed with cornering speed, rather the throw your grip away, slow and brutal driving that can be sinfully fun sometimes.

      I just want the option to do whichever I please.
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      03-23-2012 06:00 PM #143
      http://motoren.wordpress.com/2011/02...-and-scirocco/


      IDK if this has been posted, 5 pages is a lot to go through...

      but apparently we all have a secret semi disable... which last until you tap the brakes before you enter a corner. or if you are skilled enough, you can probably run a whole circuit without touching the brakes just kidding...

      can anyone confirm, or did anyone confirm this? I honestly am not too concern over this but I do wanna know that if it only cuts back in when you seem to be bent out of shape (i.e. turning and braking at the same time while the wheel has an obvious wheel speed difference) or is it like I said, the touching of the brakes before entering the corner will re-engage the system...

      I honestly really hope its the former and not the latter, because i'd imagine it be very hard to constantly try to re-disable it.

      well that and I really hope we at least really have this second stage that is supposively black magic.


      honestly I will probably never disable esp anyway, i only thought about this for a what if type thing. I don't see the disadvantage for daily driving the car with esp on anyway.

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      03-23-2012 06:32 PM #144
      Quote Originally Posted by webcrawlr View Post
      TechEd has expressed concern with pulling anything ABS and what codes you might be setting on other items on the CAN bus you cannot see or do anything about. Food for thought.
      ABS and ECS are one thing, but i really bought into what he had to say about ride height/quality. Now that i have driven the R for more than a month, the suspension is ****. Bump steer is outrageous. Dont listen to TechEd as the "end all, be all" of this car. Just my $0.02.

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      03-23-2012 06:54 PM #145
      Quote Originally Posted by Heinrich View Post
      What if it were a hidden vag-com bit - anyone call Russ Tech?
      Someone in the mk6 forums found some settings (xdl,asr, etc) but nothing that stuck as it was all speed sensitive. Can't find the thread now.
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      03-23-2012 07:11 PM #146
      Quote Originally Posted by Dawg90 View Post
      You can spin any car with clumsy application of throttle while cornering at the limit - and while I can buy that the R32 is prone to this, the R motor is considerably lighter - so unless people have already been taking their R's to the track already and spinning them, what is the claim based on?
      Sure. The question in this case is just how clumsy do you have to be and how light does the rear of this car get at speed. TEd, BTW, who might not have Vettel's resume, but likely its more substantial than most everyone else here, cited personal track experience in this regard. It is true,however, that this is a sample of 1.

      Regardless, far too friggin much is made of this. While I've never felt the need to track my GTI, I have AXed it once or twice and with ESP off, outside of the XSD, nothing was ever noticed, unless I screwed up and came in too hot in the first place. And that, after all, is the purpose of ESP interference. It is for those moments when talent lags bravado. Now being an old school 911 kinda guy, I personally prefer the Darwin solution and so philosophically, I'm certainly in the wish I could fully defeat it camp. But our modern, overly litigious society demands more gentile sanctions, in this case, ESP. As no performance road car available today has fully defeatable electronic aids (can anyone switch off ABS?), I've simply grown to accept this as the current state of affairs. OTOH, as someone who races a car that lacks even the most basic assists like power steering, I do find I find it more than a little amusing that so many view technology like ESP as emasculating while they fully embrace a whole raft of others which allow them to go more quickly than their core talents might actually allow in a more basic car.
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      03-23-2012 10:21 PM #147
      Quote Originally Posted by Tailwagger View Post
      But our modern, overly litigious society demands more gentile sanctions.
      Gentile sanctions?


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      03-24-2012 12:20 AM #148
      Quote Originally Posted by Heinrich View Post
      What if it were a hidden vag-com bit - anyone call Russ Tech?
      I think you mean Ross Tech


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      03-24-2012 07:11 AM #149
      Quote Originally Posted by xalfa View Post
      Gentile sanctions?

      Genteel...
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      03-27-2012 10:14 PM #150
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      Neither US nor the early German spec Golf R I have in house does this while holding down the ESP button.
      Das R's MFD displays this text upon pushing the ESP button. 4 door loaded US spec-took delivery January
      Last edited by veuu; 03-27-2012 at 10:19 PM.

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