And when the above is plumbed and done, I plan on running a 68MM then starting my eaton 16V CIS-E motor build, and/or boosting my vanagon WBX
Thanks captain obvious.
Which is why I am moving the components so that false air (dumped air) is not measured.
I think I know a bit of the theory, and my aim is to develop the system that has not been done rather than buy to build.
No need to point out the issue, I have been dealing with it for several weeks, and I anticipated this from reading books from Probst and Bell on bosch and Fixed displacement chargers. There is a way around it, and now I have to fabricate the solution.
Don't get me wrong.... Trying to do sh!t that people say can't be done is fun. Everbody said that you couldn't build an ABA based 20/20 without custom pistons. I proved them wrong and built one with a stock ABA bottom end. But CIS-E?????? decent parts are tough to come by anymore, some stuff you CAN'T get new, VW systems were never meant for FI.... It just doesn't make sense to me to put so much effort into it when cheap readily available alternatives that work better are out there.
92 Corrado OBD2 ABA Powered by MS3Pro
M & L EFI Performance
I'm not disagreeing. I like doing things a that have not been tried, not because of a "re-invent the wheel" mentality, but more a "look at what could be done" viewpoint.
I have a ton of CIS(-E) parts, I have accumulated over time. Interestingly the system is not all that complex and pretty reliable, it was plagued though with people that messed with it when it was not needed and gave them "Tinkeritus"
Funny with this build is no one has said it cannot be done, the majority have said either cool or don't do it. If it blows up or reaches it's design limits, I can always buy and build what everyone else does. That though, was never my end intention. If I go MS or Digi, then I wil be doing what everyone else does, and selling this project short.
There is a time for convention, and there is a time for innovation and doing it becasue no one has.
Anyone have any experience mouting the T/B just beyond the charger outlet?
I am moving mine from the intake manifold about 2.5' back just ahead of the intercooler.
Wondered if that might induce a lag like on a turbo setup due to a larger cavity drawing vaccuum.
This is all being done to move the dump pipe before the FPR and since its a corrado T/B it is integrated into one unit.
I am considering a vaccuum acuated BOV and a VR6 T/B but I wanted to try this first, due to reading that a single T/B might affect idle quality.
The Corrado T/B is cumbersome to mount just floating over the radiator fan, but I will make it work.
Once I continue the mockup I will post some pictures.
Been making some progress while I have it torn down. Either waiting for Filler to cure or Welds to cool.
My re-route and 2.5" I/C piping is almost done, though not that pretty.
I am looking forward to some significant tuning gains and some nice Tornado/Mars Red pop.
Got some more piping mounted and T/B in place. Everything is starting to fit and come together.
It's all 2.5" piping and T-Bar clamps so I should not have any leaks or losses due to the OEM corrado plumbing.
I have yet to graft a home made RSR to the T/B but I have the materials and have to just layout the cone in sheetmetal and do some welding. I am hoping to fininsh the plumbing this weekend and fire it up, but will have to do some wiring tidying and extensions but that is not nearly as challenging as the plumbing and FPR and T/B relocating.
I should change this thread to, the project no one cares to reply to..
Either because there is no interest, it is not believed do-able, or it has never been done and is not c onsidered mainstream.
Here is the progress for this weekend.
I finished fabricating all the plumbing. All the silver was done TIG and in garage.
I have to make an air filter mount and hump interface, lengthen two fuel lines, extend three connectors, and I am ready to fire this up by the weekend.
Home made RSR
T/B close up and dump pipe
Overall System plumbed and F/I lines routed
Clearer Near finished pic
Everything is done except for lengthening the ISV, TPS, and T/B connector and the Crankcase to G60 breather.
I extended the connectors and made a block off plate and Crankcase breather to charger.
It started right up.
BUT, I need to make an aluminum version of the "snake head".
Apparently it does not work at 30 in of vaccuum.
I suspected this would be the case.
More fabricating tonight, hoping it is the last of it for this conversion.
Last edited by nbvwfan; 10-12-2012 at 02:04 PM.
Just talked thermodynamics and Fluid Dynamics with a fellow engineer.
I think a new "cobra head" will resolve the rough running and lean/rich A/F.
The formula to base this on is P1V1=P2V2.
So the force of the sensor plate will measure the force of the pressurized air stream even if its occupying the same volume while flowing through the FPR.
Replaced the snakehead and the lower intercooler rubber transition with aluminum. Clearance is tighter than I like. The car starts and runs and I see boost as the FPR rises up and down relative to pressure. It surges though and then stalls once off the gas. A/F is better responding as I had hoped (FPR after G60), but the location of the T/B so far upstream of the intake manifold induces a pressure wave that the FPR cannot readily respond to.
I am going to have to relocate the T/B back to the intake manifold and work out a pre FPR bypass or dump valve. Will dig through my parts to find a N/A 8V T/B and just pull the corrado version.
Messed around with making steel flares. Did not like 3" so I trimmed it down to 2". Still too much flare so I may trim it to 1". If it still looks to flared I will just ditch the idea.
Pictures if anyone is watching or cares... I thought there would be more interest in an outside the box build.
Been debating what I can do to get the A/F and idle resolved.
Last night I went back to the Corrado T/B at manifold and got it to start, run, and idle fine, but A/F is way rich at ~9.5:1 pretty much all the time.
I took out the DPR and did a reverse power tune (~1 turn CCW) and it only leaned it out ~1 point. Idle screw is CCW to stop, still too rich.
I am waiting on a BOV that I can run pre intercooler, thus eliminating the excess air going through the metering head. I am hoping this fixes things. If not I can alway run the BOV as a bypass return or plumb the T/B dump back to the G60. But that would probably put me right back to where I was when I started; a 12.5:1 A/F at idle and a lean spot, then ~12:1 at WOT. I am thinking about the DPR and if one off an Audi or Volvo turbo might have more +/- Mah bandwidth. But this is all speculaltion on technology that is about 15 years beyond the realm of performance tuning enthusiasts.
I could always go standalone, but I am not there yet.
More after the weekend.
Last edited by nbvwfan; 10-12-2012 at 02:06 PM.
I got a couple BOV's in and threw them both on last night. One was junk, but after my Ebay bucks it was only $8 so it was fun hoping. The other cost a bit more and is an alternate for the 1.8T diaphram BOV that goes bad.
Plumbed in it worked but I had to crank it all the way loose to get it venting at idle.
It is loud and it seems to not have the flow to vent to ~10-15in of vaccuum, but a ~1 PSI positive load on the G Lader might not be too taxing.
I plan on refining the setup some tonight.
I threw a 8V T/B on and managed to clock the throttle cable to ~120 dgrees from stock so I can run the cable without binding. Once I have my 2.5" to 3" reducer hooked up I should have more to work with.
Considering throwing on my spare DPR's to batch run and see if I have one with more +/-mah bandwidth to affect A/F tuning. I plan to also look at the counterweight and see if the alignment screw also can shift the CG of the sensor plate
Sealing the aluminum snakehead and getting organized and methodical is the plan along with all this over the weekend.
If I get frustrated, maybe I will step back and make some steel flares while I think of next steps.
No one commented, but should I fabricate some ~1.5 flares all around and ditch/sell the plastic flares?
I was hoping for comments on the look. I plan on 25mm spacers and eventually some wider rims, but I want the power to justify it first.
if you could find a larger diameter air meter, it should help to lean it out at idle. mercedes, maybe? the angle on the sides of the cone of the air meter (where the meter plate lifts into) have a lot to do with the fuel curve.
to reinforce your decision... my cis-e jetta is more powerful than any digifant car i've had.
Last edited by player2; 10-12-2012 at 11:26 PM.
if we had some ham, we could have some ham and cheese sandwiches if we had some cheese.
there's also this--> http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/...FULful_pg4.htm
might be useless, but still kinda neat
if we had some ham, we could have some ham and cheese sandwiches if we had some cheese.
Thanks for the reply.
And I agree the shape of the FPR cone has a dramatic impact on off idle A/F.
I toyed with throwing a Rabbit GTI (CIS basic) on as a test, but then I would lose lambda and the DPR.
I almost bought a Mercedes downdraft unit, but I decided not to due to the cost and alread being about halfway through the fuel relocating work.
I made some significant progress this weekend and got at idle A/F to a tunable state. I can tweak the DPR and mixture screw anywhere from 15:1 down to 12:1. My off idle response is a bit choppy and WOT is lean, but I think that has most to do with clogged injectors (AGAIN ).
I bought 8 brass Mercedes injectors and will be trying them out.
Throwing on Basic injectors, tended to richen it up too much at idle, probably from lower crack open pressure from softer pintle springs.
I will post some pictures and a more structured update later on.
But I think CIS has more potential than Digi, primarily due to higher system fuel pressure overall.
I was just looking at my bosch handbook, Digi ~35 PSI, CIS ~70 PSI. Marry that to a flow meter that can deliver more volume through ~190cc/min injectors @3bar and you end up with more power. I agree with you. Interestingly, I read in this book CIS was a parallel platform when DIGI was out on the market. I am certain Bosch went DIGI in the end due to lower cost of total parts and servicing. Happy but disappointing compromise from an engineering standpoint..
I made up a post charger, pre-FPR dump pipe and fitted both BOV's.
Next was a tweak of the DPR and I found an oring for the vanagon waterpump that fit the groove of the FPR flowmeter flange. I managed to wedge my intake hood over that.
It started up after a few tries and ran as I had hope. Throttle response is very quick, it stumbes at mid to WOT, but I think that is due to clogged injector pintles.
I shifted gear and decided to finish the body work and prep it for sealer.Below are pic's from teh weekend.
have you considered swapping from CIS-E to CIS-L so you can use the volvo 240turbo fuel dizzy?
the VW units are limited to 160hp or so..
the FUEL DIZZY is the restriction, not the injectors or the pump or lines or anything else..
the actual fuel distributor is the restriction..
Volvo units are good for 220hp or so.. (ive been told)
in my setup, im using an Audi 5000 turbo WUR, a Volvo 240T fuel dizzy, and the rest is stock VW..
I guess I am not at ~220HP yet. My primary reason for the FPR F/I relocation was due to poor economy, not lack of fuel dilivery.
And I am trying to utlize CIS-E. If I went CIS basic things would be simpler and I could go 240 Dizzy and WUR. But I still did not find anyone that did this in a supercharged application. Further, the G60 is unique in that it pumps at low RPM like a twin screw (fixed displacement), but has some qualities of a roots (elevated boost with RPM increase). Problem is Roots like the T/B ahead of the charger. VW designed it after and recirculation after the fact as well. This was a compromise in economy, noise, and lifecycle. Ideally they should have run hard pipe throughout with the T/B ahead of the G Lader and a recirculation valve to span the gap for excess boost return but this would have changed the layout and cost of the design and they chose otherwise. It would have been cool to see it continued and improved and added to other platforms (vanagon), but sadly they turned a corner and dropped it.
Started wet sanding.
Started at the worst orange peel on the car. 1500, then 2000, then 2500.
Then compound (gently) with my DA, and then Wolfgang swirl remover.
Also started the hood.
I realized I need to go easier on the sanding pressure. I also need to get my compound then polish process sorted out. But it was late and I wanted to see how it would improve and how much the bugs and nibs would still show after blocking it.
I think it should make the 6 of 10 clear to about an 8 of 10 final finish. I can always respray the clear.
I have enjoyed telling the kids "no, its not still wet". They have enjoyed seeing shiny red on the 26 year old car that has been in garage for almost two years.
Managed to get a little more done in spite of the storm that blew through and knocked out power.
Wired/Plumbed in the Hobb Switch to WOT. Dressed, wrapped and tucked all the wires in the bay. Routed the injector lines and clocked the FPR. Started it up again and have some tuning to try to do. Still have a stumble at half to WOT. Need to feed in a 5V 20Mah signal to the DPR to get it corrected.
Sanded the hood and roof with Trizact 3000 grit. Experimented with compounds until I found one that seemed to work well enough. Muguires 105 is a little to agressive, so I finished with 205 and a soft foam pad on my polisher. did some hand sanding in the fender and door, still in process.
See the pictures and comment if you like.
Hood and roof partial compounded with 205
most Rabbit GTIs had CIS-Lambda, FWIW..
ive said it before, and ill say it again..
why are you against running CIS-Lambda out of a volvo 240 turbo, and an audi 5k turbo warm up regulator?
it would be a CIS fuel system BUILT FOR BOOSTED APPS..
and why are you blowing thru your fuel dizzy, rather than drawing thru it?
and why do you have the boost return valve AFTER the sensor plate? any ime your diverter/bov opens, it makes the metering plate lift, and the fuel dizzy to go pig rich..
I have the Fuel meter in a blow through setup becasue I tried the draw through already.
I know I could use CIS-Lambda, or a Basic setup, but then I would have to swap ECU's and loose out on all the stock components and it would not work with a fixed displacement cherger setup. That is where this is different than a boost on turbo setup.
I have dropped the corrao T/B and gone 8V T/B with dump via two BOVs pre Fuel Meter , it does not run pig rich anymore. Now I need WOT enrichment. And I cannot just plumb in a WUR as the return and FPR are different than on the 240 or 5000 CIS-L or Basic setup.
That is why I am still doing it this way.
My goal is to use my Hobb switch run to a 12V to 5V converter to send a 20Mah signal to the DPR.
That will act just like the lambda valve/WUR on the callaway microfueler kits that were done for basic turbo's
Once I can get WOT/Boost enrichment on the stock injectors, I am putting on some miles and dropping in a 68MM pully.
Further, I have read in several texts that the CIS-E (silver) metering heads flow more than the CIS Basic (black) units. And altering the DPR to switch on demand instead of affecting system pressure down stream via the Lambda valve and WUR in my initial view was a more primitive apprach that was done before the upper/lower chamber DPR modulation.
I wired up an simple circuit last night. 4 AA batteries (6V, ~15Mah) with a pushbutton plumbed to the test ports on my DPR harness. Witht he car running I had A/F bouncing ~14:1, cracking the throttle I would see it drop momentarily to ~12:1 then surge to ~15:1. Witht he wired in switch and hitting the button, the A/F dropped immediately to ~10:1 and stayed under 11:1 all the way WOT to redline.
I have sucessfully figured a way to patch in load enrichment to CIS-E and the DPR. I made this into an "OR" circuit to hook to a pushbutton and the Hobbs switch and will have a two color LED to indicate when the switch is closed ont the hobbs. When this is reliable I plan on swapping the battery pack for a MAP sensor, but the one I bought was ebay junk.
i skimmed thru this thread at work, but have u checked what the DPR value is using the test harness? and also have you tried "TUNING" the DPR itself?? not the 3mm allen for airflow plate height, the actual DPR itself...it will greatly improve fueling uptop
Thanks for the reply.
And Yes, I found the DIY on power tuning the DPR.
I gathered all of my DPRs in case I messed my current one up.
I have taken mine out about 50 times now and tweaked it CW and CCW to alter the A/F curve, all while reving and watching my wideband output.
I tuned it to bounce at 5Mah and tuned it to bounce rich (0+mah) and tried leaning at the mixture crew.
It has all be a lot of multi-component fiddling as each has an impact on the other (DPR,TPS, and Mixture screw). I have ended up with an external signal to overide the ECU signal when I have known boost. It works but I think I have clogged injectors due to ethenol wax sediment build in the injector pintle screens. I plan on getting a set of new injectors to rule out the components and see if I can dial in a better fuel curve.
As it sat Sunday
No picture updates.
Worked on the miss and stumble.
Went in circles, but I think I found the issue. My fuel meter is not supplying equal volume of fuel, I have three ports flowing 625-650 ml in 3 minutes at full bore and one port flowing 550ml, this is outside of the standard deviation of the 10% per injector volume tests.
I had thought it was the injetors, it is not, good thing is, out of 12, I have about 10 known good injectors. Bad thing is I will have to split the fuel meter apart and find the one slit that has ethanol crud build up.
Not happy about that but at least I have detirmined the cause of the inconsistent A/F ratio.
More updates later.
Sanding/refinishing quantum snowflakes, toss up between going Alpine white for the relief pattern or Tornado red. Anybody have an opinion on painting this color scheme instead the OEM (carbonite) black?
More and more circles.
Pulled the inectors again volume tested, and tweaked the fuel distributor individual ports to flow the injectors to ~8% SD and ~10% variance.
Thought that would solve it all. It did not, I continue have pretty heavy overfueling. Messed more with the signal to the DPR, that only made it richer, got as low as 8.5:1 Probed the wiring more and found the O2 wire I tucked was not sending the ECU any variable voltage. Fixed that, and it still overfuels ~11:1.
Pulled the DPR about 5 times adjusting it to leaner. Tried a DPR from a 09A. Bought a 3 bAR MAP sensor, wired it in like my Hobbs circuit and 100ma signal, thinking it would smooth out the stumble, it seems to, but the Fuel distributor is just not designed to move relative to volume under boost.
Maybe another day will uncover something I have not tried.
about ready to pull it all out and buy a lugtronic. Not what I wanted to end up doing, but I beleive I am pretty close to saying CIS-E cannot run supercharged. Not drawthrough, not blowthru, not hybrid.
More efforts to troubleshoot and tune out the off idle stumble under load.
It is better but not right.
In case anyone cares to know, I found some ways to adjust the meter of the fuel distributor.
The DPR can be adjusted to effect upper and lower chamber flow. And while the fuel distributor individual ports can be backed out (to richen), after opening one of my spare distributors up I found that they equalize each other by cross ports, so this tune is probably moot except to adjust/calibrate out a bad line or partially clogged plunger slit.
For the DPR, I found after 12 iterations starting with 1/2 turn from bottoming out, I got mine to run ~12:1 at WOT under boost and only leaning to about 13:1 at as high as 10 PSI. I have left it there for now. I set the plunger to meter distance to 19mm according to the tip in the VW watercooled performance handbook (good book BTW). This helped an off idle enrichment condition.
I pulled some injectors from my quantum Syncro and soaked them overnight in MEK. I spray tested them and installed them with air shrouds and ran the airshroud feed line just after the intercooler. I had to adjust the idle air screw to get it to not race, but the air shrouds seemed to help.
I pulled these injectors and volume tested them to rule out a low flowing port or injector. All were better than I have had since last post. At full bore fuel pressure, I measure 640cc,630cc,625cc, and 630cc in 3 minutes. This seems to rule the fuel distributor delivery, volume flow rate, and spray pattern as cause of the issue.
I pulled the distributor which was new a month ago, all the contacts were carboned. I thought I had found the issue. After cleaning I took it out, still no significant change.
I am pretty stumped. I am tired of trying to eliminate this issue. I thought I could wire in a MAP signal, but I cannot seem to find a tap that it would be useful. I tried tandeming it to the DPR, then TPS, then CTS. For the first and thrid it worked but did not eliminate the stumble. I am beginning to think maybe the Hall signal is partly to blame.
Pulled the distributor and the red wire was retreating into the inside rotor assembly. It cracked when I was pulling it out so I am JB welding and looking for a new one to swap in later this week.
Anyone know if I can wire in a MAP signal into the ECU to effect the A/F and DPR maps, or am I just pioneering something no one has tried nor cares about.
Got a new Distributor and put it in, though it was from MPGAUTO.com and I had to index it 90 degrees before I got the car running. It did not improve anything, in fact, the shaft was bent, and on my test drive I had to turn around due to distributor timing walk. I could hardly believe it, but in about a 1/4 mile it would go from advanced to full retard and would bog to a crawl.
I pulled it, asked for and RMA, and learned my lesson. My old one went back in and works just fine.
Sunday, after I had pulled my QSW fuel distributor I started fabricating another air plenum to make the system draw through once again.
Hated the idea of it having to go pretty much back to where I was in September, but I have exhausted the iterations of a blow through design. I have determined the FD cannot reliably measure volume while under negative to positive pressure changes, it seems the pressure head causes spikes in the metering from sensor plate flutter. I will be sticking with the things that worked though, Dual BOV's and MK2 T/B.
I know, everyone will chime in now and say I told you so, but I can say to them, I showed you so..
Pics of the plenum and FD
Last edited by nbvwfan; 12-03-2012 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Adding pictures
Did some more work last night on the draw thru airbox.
Cutout the window for the quantum FD and line drilled for the bolt pattern. Welded in some bosses to mount it. Mocked up fitting and will be much more room to work with than the last setup.
Toying with the arrangement for the air filter. I am planning on tucking it inside the fender and frame rail area. It will be a good cold air setup, only drawback will be filter cleaning will require removing the fender liner.
Was thinking (second guessing) on the way to work today. I have my stock ECU plumbed to the intake manifold. Contemplating if my off idle stumble is due to K Jet not knowing what to do with boost, or actually if it goes to retard when above Atmospheric (14.6PSI). This might be why I could never get it revving right at mid to WOT, and it rarely went to redline on WOT. The engine ignition was/is getting lost and firing way late. I plan on trying a one way vacuum adapter (the little blue ones) plumbed such that the ECU will only see full vacuum to atmospheric pressure.
Maybe that will fix my blow thru issues.
Here are a couple pic's from last nights effort.
And one of the snowflakes I am trying to restore.
Last edited by nbvwfan; 12-04-2012 at 11:11 AM.
Thanks to Nothing Leaves Stock for the tips and the Haltech Fuel Management hookup.
Looking forward to finally getting this thing running right.
Look for updates on the continued fabrication and progress this weekend when I plumb in the 5 Cylinder Fuel Distributor.