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    Thread: G60 CIS-E Is it possible?

    1. Member
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      G60 on CIS-E and a bunch of other VW's
      09-06-2012 01:22 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Prof315 View Post
      $1200 for MS?????? Even a fully prebuilt and custom configured MS3/3X with harnesses and a wideband 02 is less than that. An MS1 V3.0 kit, harness and wideband is about $500 and it will make more power and better economy than CIS-E on a forced induction motor. Don't misunderstand me CIS is a pretty cool system but it's OLD and outdated. The only time I still use it is on SCCA road racing cars where class rules require stock fuel management.
      Not ,
      I'm not well informed enough to scifer what MS system I should use. The lack of package configuartions makes it challenging to know what you need.
      I have looked at it and had incorrectly assumed that tuning of CIS-E would be less than the time/money of wiring in a standalone. I also had emissions I was concerned with.
      Frankly I like CIS, and wanted to explore it's possibilities (Like the Callaway kits did). Seeing I have not found anyone to say what CIS-E has pushed on supercharging, I challenge the notion that it is inferior to standalone. Show me Apples to Oranges, I know. If I wanted the most power with the least amount of work, I would pay someone for it, and this seems to be the case of some on the vortex. With enough time maybe I will end up being one of those outfits, that support the buy vs built industry, but one cannot buy the experience.
      Thanks for caring to share

    2. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      09-06-2012 02:21 PM #27
      I'd have to go do some serious digging for the dyno sheets but if you want an example here you go:

      SCCA H Production 1980 Scirroco 1.6L 8V, 11.5 to1, BIG custom camshaft, carefully ported and flowbenched head, CIS with an Aeromotive 2 port pressure regulator in place of the warm up regulator so we could "tune" the fuel curve, 13.0 AFR at WOT. Our best pulls made 129 whp and 115 wtq. In a typical 40 minute race we used 6 gallons of 110 octane leaded race fuel.

      Same car same motor on MS2 using 24lb/hr injectors and waste spark ignition. Best dyno pulls (on the same dyno) were 135whp and 118 wtq but AVERAGE hp and torque were up 12hp an 15 ftlbs respectively while fuel economy improved to 4.5 gallons of the same 110 in a 40 minute race. And oh yeah lap times dropped 2-3 seconds.

      Being able to tune and optimize fueling and timing across the entire operating range of an engine will always result in more power and better economy and it simply can not be done with CIS.
      Last edited by Prof315; 09-06-2012 at 02:25 PM.
      The Professor
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      09-06-2012 03:57 PM #28
      6hp and 3Lb is a good bump but considering the margins it does not prove
      "and it simply can not be done with CIS"
      And that was N/A.
      I am not trying to dispute your knowledge, my point is I believe CIS (Basic, Lambda, and -E) were very capable setups.

      My goal is to match or Better Digi I with CIS-E built to the proper configuring of the current system.
      I am after the same basic numbers that a stock corrado had and then go from there, end goal 200HP and 200 FtLbs at the crank.
      I am sure that if I went with MS or Lugtronic my numbers and driveability would be much improved, but I would be ditching all the parts and time I spent learning to tune and modify CIS-E.
      So far, with my setup being a pull charge system (FPR ahead of the charger) I am pretty sure I am getting ~140WHP and ~24MPG @5-8 PSI, not bad, but not great either.

    4. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      09-07-2012 08:57 AM #29
      You missed the main point. While it is possible with just about ANY type of fuel control system ( carbs, CIS, EFI) to get the most PEAK hp and tq out of a motor we saw a significant increase in AVERAGE hp and tq and that's what matters in the end as proved by our much improved lap times and fuel economy.

      And as far as the motor being N/A vs FI, being able to precicely tune the whole fuel and timing curves becomes even more important with FI.
      Last edited by Prof315; 09-07-2012 at 09:02 AM.
      The Professor
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      09-07-2012 10:03 AM #30
      I did not miss the point, I am viewing it from a different angle.
      I agree that standalone or "updating" will improve performance and economy, but I did not want to spend the time or money on going that route. There was a lot of engineering that went into CIS-E and I wanted to detirmine how much I could exploit it.
      I beleive I have proven the concept, and now will pursue optimizing by relocating items. this from reading Corky Bell's books and seeing some shortcomings of a draw through CIS-E setup.
      Once it is done, I may infact go with Lugtronic for my 16V build. I like the simplicity of waste spark and electronic fueling on F/I. It would not take a lot of add ons, just the standalone ECU, a wideband, fuel rail, MAF, TPS, CPS, Coilpack ect, and it certainly would remove a lot of the 80's CIS-E clutter.

    6. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      09-07-2012 10:27 AM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by nbvwfan View Post
      I did not miss the point, I am viewing it from a different angle.
      I agree that standalone or "updating" will improve performance and economy, but I did not want to spend the time or money on going that route. There was a lot of engineering that went into CIS-E and I wanted to detirmine how much I could exploit it.
      I beleive I have proven the concept, and now will pursue optimizing by relocating items. this from reading Corky Bell's books and seeing some shortcomings of a draw through CIS-E setup.
      Once it is done, I may infact go with Lugtronic for my 16V build. I like the simplicity of waste spark and electronic fueling on F/I. It would not take a lot of add ons, just the standalone ECU, a wideband, fuel rail, MAF, TPS, CPS, Coilpack ect, and it certainly would remove a lot of the 80's CIS-E clutter.
      Just one question.... the fuel curve on a CIS system is based largely on the size of the orifice in the fuel distributor. That and the pressure applied against the air door which determines how quickly you reach the max amout of fuel delivered. FI motors need LOTS more fuel than NA so how are you going to get there with a system designed for an NA motor?
      The Professor
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      09-07-2012 10:39 AM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by Prof315 View Post
      Just one question.... the fuel curve on a CIS system is based largely on the size of the orifice in the fuel distributor. That and the pressure applied against the air door which determines how quickly you reach the max amout of fuel delivered. FI motors need LOTS more fuel than NA so how are you going to get there with a system designed for an NA motor?
      The operating margin of a 1.8 Metering head is capable of delivering more fuel than a 1.8 8V N/A would ever need. Every good design incorporates a factor of (safety). The metering head is capable of delivering within the margins of mild/modestF/I. Additionally, and as I read in Probst book on Bosch systems, CIS-E uses the DPR which decreases/increases upper and lower chamber pressure, thus allowing more sensor plate lift, higher fuel pressure at the orifice, delivering more fuel. Coupled with a MFU, or even a stock FPR tied to MAP, you get more than suitable fuel management.
      CIS Basic and CIS Lambda used the WUR and Frequency valve, but at the core is a metering head that has an amplitude of lift and fuel delivery that is within safe limits. Even in my pull through setup that lifts the sensor too much, I have seen A/F as low as 9:1 from the stock FPR.
      The answer is not always, put bigger __'s on it. Sometimes, its tune it for the application.

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      09-07-2012 10:40 AM #33
      And I have been driving it like this for several weeks, I am actually trying to get less fuel at idle and mid throttle.

    9. Member ALLGORIMSHOW's Avatar
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      09-12-2012 01:22 PM #34
      I like the way you think nbvwfan.
      FUITCK

      Quote Originally Posted by DAN16VG60 View Post
      Give. Me youre phone number. Him from. Montréal. Daniel. Hi havé question

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      09-14-2012 09:16 AM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by ALLGORIMSHOW View Post
      I like the way you think nbvwfan.
      Thanks for the
      I have been chipping away at the F/I relocation components.
      I have an airbox delete almost finished to put the FPR after the intercooler. My TIG welding is pretty rough but I have been watching and reading up on techniques (weldingtipsandtricks.com) and practicing these and it has greatly improved.
      Last night I roughed a T/B exit plenum which will allow me to move it just after the G60 with the dump pipe exiting to atmosphere. Plan on deleting the silencer and boost return pipe. This should clean up the bay as well.
      I am hoping to have this pretty close by end of the weekend. But I have to pickup my sons recently bought 83 GTI which we will be starting soon.
      He will eventually end up with a G Lader, but he wil have to get some seat time before I help him boost his first car.

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      09-14-2012 09:19 AM #36
      And when the above is plumbed and done, I plan on running a 68MM then starting my eaton 16V CIS-E motor build, and/or boosting my vanagon WBX

    12. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      09-14-2012 09:23 AM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by nbvwfan View Post
      And I have been driving it like this for several weeks, I am actually trying to get less fuel at idle and mid throttle.
      Exactly.... the mechanical fuel curve built into the fuel distributor is not optimized for FI
      The Professor
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      09-14-2012 09:36 AM #38
      Thanks captain obvious.
      Which is why I am moving the components so that false air (dumped air) is not measured.
      I think I know a bit of the theory, and my aim is to develop the system that has not been done rather than buy to build.
      No need to point out the issue, I have been dealing with it for several weeks, and I anticipated this from reading books from Probst and Bell on bosch and Fixed displacement chargers. There is a way around it, and now I have to fabricate the solution.

    14. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      09-14-2012 11:11 AM #39
      Don't get me wrong.... Trying to do sh!t that people say can't be done is fun. Everbody said that you couldn't build an ABA based 20/20 without custom pistons. I proved them wrong and built one with a stock ABA bottom end. But CIS-E?????? decent parts are tough to come by anymore, some stuff you CAN'T get new, VW systems were never meant for FI.... It just doesn't make sense to me to put so much effort into it when cheap readily available alternatives that work better are out there.
      The Professor
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      09-14-2012 02:19 PM #40
      I'm not disagreeing. I like doing things a that have not been tried, not because of a "re-invent the wheel" mentality, but more a "look at what could be done" viewpoint.
      I have a ton of CIS(-E) parts, I have accumulated over time. Interestingly the system is not all that complex and pretty reliable, it was plagued though with people that messed with it when it was not needed and gave them "Tinkeritus"
      Funny with this build is no one has said it cannot be done, the majority have said either cool or don't do it. If it blows up or reaches it's design limits, I can always buy and build what everyone else does. That though, was never my end intention. If I go MS or Digi, then I wil be doing what everyone else does, and selling this project short.
      There is a time for convention, and there is a time for innovation and doing it becasue no one has.

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      09-19-2012 09:33 AM #41
      Anyone have any experience mouting the T/B just beyond the charger outlet?
      I am moving mine from the intake manifold about 2.5' back just ahead of the intercooler.
      Wondered if that might induce a lag like on a turbo setup due to a larger cavity drawing vaccuum.
      This is all being done to move the dump pipe before the FPR and since its a corrado T/B it is integrated into one unit.
      I am considering a vaccuum acuated BOV and a VR6 T/B but I wanted to try this first, due to reading that a single T/B might affect idle quality.
      The Corrado T/B is cumbersome to mount just floating over the radiator fan, but I will make it work.
      Once I continue the mockup I will post some pictures.

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      09-26-2012 11:54 AM #42
      Been making some progress while I have it torn down. Either waiting for Filler to cure or Welds to cool.
      My re-route and 2.5" I/C piping is almost done, though not that pretty.
      I am looking forward to some significant tuning gains and some nice Tornado/Mars Red pop.





      http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/...-57-32_891.jpg












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      09-28-2012 09:33 AM #43
      Got some more piping mounted and T/B in place. Everything is starting to fit and come together.
      It's all 2.5" piping and T-Bar clamps so I should not have any leaks or losses due to the OEM corrado plumbing.
      I have yet to graft a home made RSR to the T/B but I have the materials and have to just layout the cone in sheetmetal and do some welding. I am hoping to fininsh the plumbing this weekend and fire it up, but will have to do some wiring tidying and extensions but that is not nearly as challenging as the plumbing and FPR and T/B relocating.




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      10-01-2012 01:55 PM #44

      I should change this thread to, the project no one cares to reply to..
      Either because there is no interest, it is not believed do-able, or it has never been done and is not c onsidered mainstream.
      Anyway,
      Here is the progress for this weekend.
      I finished fabricating all the plumbing. All the silver was done TIG and in garage.
      I have to make an air filter mount and hump interface, lengthen two fuel lines, extend three connectors, and I am ready to fire this up by the weekend.

      Enjoy.

      Home made RSR





      T/B close up and dump pipe



      Overall System plumbed and F/I lines routed



      Clearer Near finished pic




      ????

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      10-04-2012 04:41 PM #45
      10-03-2012 Updates
      Everything is done except for lengthening the ISV, TPS, and T/B connector and the Crankcase to G60 breather.












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      10-05-2012 09:39 AM #46
      I extended the connectors and made a block off plate and Crankcase breather to charger.
      It started right up.
      BUT, I need to make an aluminum version of the "snake head".
      Apparently it does not work at 30 in of vaccuum.
      I suspected this would be the case.
      More fabricating tonight, hoping it is the last of it for this conversion.
      Last edited by nbvwfan; 10-12-2012 at 02:04 PM.

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      10-05-2012 03:16 PM #47
      Just talked thermodynamics and Fluid Dynamics with a fellow engineer.
      I think a new "cobra head" will resolve the rough running and lean/rich A/F.

      The formula to base this on is P1V1=P2V2.
      So the force of the sensor plate will measure the force of the pressurized air stream even if its occupying the same volume while flowing through the FPR.

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      10-08-2012 09:29 AM #48
      Replaced the snakehead and the lower intercooler rubber transition with aluminum. Clearance is tighter than I like. The car starts and runs and I see boost as the FPR rises up and down relative to pressure. It surges though and then stalls once off the gas. A/F is better responding as I had hoped (FPR after G60), but the location of the T/B so far upstream of the intake manifold induces a pressure wave that the FPR cannot readily respond to.
      I am going to have to relocate the T/B back to the intake manifold and work out a pre FPR bypass or dump valve. Will dig through my parts to find a N/A 8V T/B and just pull the corrado version.

      Messed around with making steel flares. Did not like 3" so I trimmed it down to 2". Still too much flare so I may trim it to 1". If it still looks to flared I will just ditch the idea.
      Pictures if anyone is watching or cares... I thought there would be more interest in an outside the box build.







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      10-10-2012 10:08 AM #49
      Been debating what I can do to get the A/F and idle resolved.
      Last night I went back to the Corrado T/B at manifold and got it to start, run, and idle fine, but A/F is way rich at ~9.5:1 pretty much all the time.
      I took out the DPR and did a reverse power tune (~1 turn CCW) and it only leaned it out ~1 point. Idle screw is CCW to stop, still too rich.
      I am waiting on a BOV that I can run pre intercooler, thus eliminating the excess air going through the metering head. I am hoping this fixes things. If not I can alway run the BOV as a bypass return or plumb the T/B dump back to the G60. But that would probably put me right back to where I was when I started; a 12.5:1 A/F at idle and a lean spot, then ~12:1 at WOT. I am thinking about the DPR and if one off an Audi or Volvo turbo might have more +/- Mah bandwidth. But this is all speculaltion on technology that is about 15 years beyond the realm of performance tuning enthusiasts.
      I could always go standalone, but I am not there yet.
      More after the weekend.
      Last edited by nbvwfan; 10-12-2012 at 02:06 PM.

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      10-12-2012 02:02 PM #50
      I got a couple BOV's in and threw them both on last night. One was junk, but after my Ebay bucks it was only $8 so it was fun hoping. The other cost a bit more and is an alternate for the 1.8T diaphram BOV that goes bad.
      Plumbed in it worked but I had to crank it all the way loose to get it venting at idle.
      It is loud and it seems to not have the flow to vent to ~10-15in of vaccuum, but a ~1 PSI positive load on the G Lader might not be too taxing.
      I plan on refining the setup some tonight.
      I threw a 8V T/B on and managed to clock the throttle cable to ~120 dgrees from stock so I can run the cable without binding. Once I have my 2.5" to 3" reducer hooked up I should have more to work with.
      Considering throwing on my spare DPR's to batch run and see if I have one with more +/-mah bandwidth to affect A/F tuning. I plan to also look at the counterweight and see if the alignment screw also can shift the CG of the sensor plate
      Sealing the aluminum snakehead and getting organized and methodical is the plan along with all this over the weekend.
      If I get frustrated, maybe I will step back and make some steel flares while I think of next steps.
      No one commented, but should I fabricate some ~1.5 flares all around and ditch/sell the plastic flares?
      I was hoping for comments on the look. I plan on 25mm spacers and eventually some wider rims, but I want the power to justify it first.

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