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    Thread: APR Presents: North American TT RS 2.5 TFSI ECU Upgrade!

    1. Member
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      03-13-2012 01:19 PM #51
      of course happens when I´m on vacation


      Will wait patiently for the 91 octane graphs.... dont get my car till May anyway.

      Hard to find 93 up here in chilly Alberta, Canada
      Last edited by YYC Dubber; 03-13-2012 at 01:46 PM.

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      03-13-2012 02:18 PM #52
      In layman's terms, why is the new installation hardware needed for the TT-RS? It looks like a simple board with connectors that simply hook up to the ECU once pulled from the car. How is this different from using the OBD port? Has Audi/Bosch somehow limited what info can be sent through the OBD port and wiring? What kind of info can the dealer read/update from the OBD port, or do they too need to remove it for updates? Not doubting, just curious what exactly made this change necessary.
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    3. 03-13-2012 02:52 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by YYC Dubber View Post
      of course happens when I´m on vacation


      Will wait patiently for the 91 octane graphs.... dont get my car till May anyway.

      Hard to find 93 up here in chilly Alberta, Canada
      Why does it matter what the 91 octane graphs are? All of the tuners will probably lose about the same percent performance going from 93 to 91.

    4. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-13-2012 03:41 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by mtbscoTT View Post
      In layman's terms, why is the new installation hardware needed for the TT-RS?
      The new ECU has 1024 bit encryption, which even supercomputers cannot crack.

      It looks like a simple board with connectors that simply hook up to the ECU once pulled from the car. How is this different from using the OBD port?
      By connecting directly to the ECU, there are ways around the encryption.

      Has Audi/Bosch somehow limited what info can be sent through the OBD port and wiring?
      You can send the same info back and forth through the port as you always could, except the ECU will not allow new programming unless the ECU is presented with a 1028 bit key that's specific to the exact combination of bits within the ECU, which completely changes every time you change a bit. It's RAS 1024 bit encryption if you want to check it out on the googlnets.

      What kind of info can the dealer read/update from the OBD port, or do they too need to remove it for updates? Not doubting, just curious what exactly made this change necessary.
      The dealership can flash the ECU because the file they get from audi already has the RAS key generated for the exact file they are flashing. We could look at this RAS key all we want, but it doesn't matter because if you change 1 bit on the ECU, the key needs to be totally recalculated. It's also not as simple as comparing two or three ECU's in an attempt to reverse engineer how the key was generated. You simply would need to know the master key in order to do that.
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      03-13-2012 04:31 PM #55
      Thanks for the explanation. I also spoke to someone at one of your local dealers this afternoon and he explained it to me in even more elementary terms that I could understand. He told me he had driven your test car and can't wait to do an install locally.
      Houston, TX
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      03-13-2012 04:46 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      If you buy the software before program switching is available, all of the features and programs that will fit onto the ECU will be given to you for free, otherwise if you purchase the ECU after program switching is available, they will cost extra.
      So if I send you my ECU before program switching is available, I can then send it back or take it to a dealer to update it to have program switching when it's available for free?

      But if I wait til it's available, I have to pay extra for it? I'm not sure that makes sense to me...other than enticing people to get the base software, even if program switching never is available.

      I have 2 issues. I think the software is worth the cost with program switching...just to go back to stock for dealer visits. I'd go install it right now if both were available at a reputable dealer nearby. That's not the case. My closest dealer is 2.5 hours away. I'm interested in shipping my ECU, but not til the 3rd week in April when I'm away from my RS...but I'm assuming by then the shipping option will be gone.

      This is slightly more complicated than I'd like. I'd be happy if APR committed to including program switching to stock in the price permanently, and if they kept the option of shipping them your ECU if there is no dealer within 60 miles.

      BTW, can I assume that the program is not able to be overwritten at the dealer? Again, when flashing is so tedious (no local APR dealer and no flash tool) it makes this important.

      Also, I was always under the impression that APR made different files for different octanes? It sounds like that is not the case.
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    7. 03-13-2012 05:35 PM #57
      switching to stock mode i doubt is going to go unnoticed, i think you would have to flash original soft back on, go read whats going on with the S4's right now on audizine....

      arin can you comment how much higher boost has been increased, 1-2 psi? etc and would it be a problem for high elevation places, such as 4000ft

    8. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-13-2012 06:39 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by DrDomm View Post
      So if I send you my ECU before program switching is available, I can then send it back or take it to a dealer to update it to have program switching when it's available for free?
      Yes sir!

      But if I wait til it's available, I have to pay extra for it?
      Correct!

      I'm not sure that makes sense to me...other than enticing people to get the base software, even if program switching never is available.
      You can look at it any way you want, but this is exactly what we did for the Audi A3 2.0 TSI, Audi A4 2.0 TFSI VL and Audi S4 3.0 TFSI.

      I have 2 issues. I think the software is worth the cost with program switching...just to go back to stock for dealer visits. I'd go install it right now if both were available at a reputable dealer nearby. That's not the case. My closest dealer is 2.5 hours away. I'm interested in shipping my ECU, but not til the 3rd week in April when I'm away from my RS...but I'm assuming by then the shipping option will be gone.
      You can always ship the ECU. We'll never take away this option. Some people simply do not have a local APR dealer, so shipping will always be possible.

      This is slightly more complicated than I'd like. I'd be happy if APR committed to including program switching to stock in the price permanently, and if they kept the option of shipping them your ECU if there is no dealer within 60 miles.
      We don't have any plans for that but as I mentioned, shipping directly to APR is always an option.

      BTW, can I assume that the program is not able to be overwritten at the dealer? Again, when flashing is so tedious (no local APR dealer and no flash tool) it makes this important.
      The dealer can flash over the ECU if they have an update and usually you should allow them to do so. As far as I understand, they can't do this update without your permission, so if you really want, you can tell them no. Typically, you'll want the update, and we'll provide you with an update of our software that includes the updates they've made. The good thing is it seems they don't have many updates these days. The MK6 GTI's been around for years now and they're not updating those ECU's as far as I know.

      Also, I was always under the impression that APR made different files for different octanes? It sounds like that is not the case.
      We do offer different files for different octanes. We have files for the following:

      91 (R+M)/2
      93 (R+M)/2
      100 (R+M)/2
      95 RON
      98 RON
      104 RON




      Quote Originally Posted by tdi-bart View Post
      arin can you comment how much higher boost has been increased, 1-2 psi? etc and would it be a problem for high elevation places, such as 4000ft
      Boost is not a set number as the ECU is it's based on engine load and load is based on calculated mass airflow and mass airflow will change at different altitudes and ambient conditions. The ECU's also smart enough to not burn up the turbos at high altitude nor do we max out the turbos, especially on a stage 1 ECU upgrade. I'll see if I can gather some information from engineering to figure out approximately how much more boost pressure one will see, just keep in mind, it's not a set number so it will never be identical.
      Last edited by Arin@APR; 03-13-2012 at 06:43 PM.
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      03-13-2012 06:41 PM #59
      Wow. Finally.

      If I still had mine, I'd be knocking on the door at Goodspeed once they got the ability to flash the ECU there.

      Should be an awesome upgrade!

    10. 03-13-2012 06:54 PM #60
      The price is great.

      The results are great.

      And without a doubt...the service and support will be great.



      If I would be willing to pay $600 for a GTI tune....then $1500 for the TTRS would be justifiable. Biggest plus being that it is a trustworthy tune.
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    11. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-13-2012 06:56 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by 8J35R9 View Post
      The price is great.

      The results are great.

      And without a doubt...the service and support will be great.



      If I would be willing to pay $600 for a GTI tune....then $1500 for the TTRS would be justifiable. Biggest plus being that it is a trustworthy tune.
      It's actually only $899, but I'm willing to make an exception and raise the price if that's what you want!
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    12. 03-13-2012 07:17 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      It's actually only $899, but I'm willing to make an exception and raise the price if that's what you want!
      Well heck, then I'll take two. Would that double the amplitude of those curves on your graphy thing?

      I did see the price. Just not a evry good rwiter.
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    13. 03-13-2012 07:21 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post


      Boost is not a set number as the ECU is it's based on engine load and load is based on calculated mass airflow and mass airflow will change at different altitudes and ambient conditions. The ECU's also smart enough to not burn up the turbos at high altitude nor do we max out the turbos, especially on a stage 1 ECU upgrade. I'll see if I can gather some information from engineering to figure out approximately how much more boost pressure one will see, just keep in mind, it's not a set number so it will never be identical.
      yes as i understand the ecu is programmed to make a certain load, so boost will vary based on altitude, higher altitudes it will need more boost the make the same amount of load/power than lower altitudes... but i assume the increase in boost for stage1 is the same no matter what altitude you are at, but if you are saying at higher altitudes its not being maxed thats all i wanted to know really, 4000ft isnt that high yet, but 8000-10000ft hmmm

      http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ai...ure-d_462.html

      if i am reading that chart correctly, it means the turbo has to make 2 psi more boost at 4000ft than sea level, 10k ft would be 4.5 extra psi

    14. Member gogogadget's Avatar
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      03-14-2012 02:02 AM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by gogogadget View Post
      How about the 2.0t guys... Why are we so left out
      You seem to answer all the questions relating to the 2.5 tune, please PM or reply... Patiently waiting

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      03-14-2012 02:41 AM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      The dealer can flash over the ECU if they have an update and usually you should allow them to do so. As far as I understand, they can't do this update without your permission, so if you really want, you can tell them no. Typically, you'll want the update, and we'll provide you with an update of our software that includes the updates they've made. The good thing is it seems they don't have many updates these days. The MK6 GTI's been around for years now and they're not updating those ECU's as far as I know.
      Let me see if I understand this: if the TT has an APR reflash, and there is a software update that the dealer would like to apply and we say okay, then the dealer can reflash the car with the Audi update (overwriting the APR reflash) with no issues?

      And assuming that happens, then to get the APR reflash back, we'd have to go to an APR dealer and remove the ECU again (or remove it and mail it to APR headquarters), who would then have to reflash it again (assuming APR had the new file and had created an updated reflash based on it)?

      Is APR willing to do the latter (reflashing ECUs that have been over-written by the dealer)?

      And on a similar note...

      Can APR dealers reflash completely back to stock over the OBD port if APR reflash is present (a subsequent reflash back to the APR file would need another ECU removal I assume)? And if so, would they be willing to reflash the car back to the APR file again at a later date for just the labor cost?
      Last edited by Marty; 03-14-2012 at 02:43 AM.

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      03-14-2012 11:49 AM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by gogogadget View Post
      You seem to answer all the questions relating to the 2.5 tune, please PM or reply... Patiently waiting
      I have specific TT 2.0L tune threads. We need a car in house to finalize marketing material before I can launch the software.
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      03-14-2012 11:56 AM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Marty View Post
      Let me see if I understand this: if the TT has an APR reflash, and there is a software update that the dealer would like to apply and we say okay, then the dealer can reflash the car with the Audi update (overwriting the APR reflash) with no issues?
      Correct

      And assuming that happens, then to get the APR reflash back, we'd have to go to an APR dealer and remove the ECU again (or remove it and mail it to APR headquarters), who would then have to reflash it again (assuming APR had the new file and had created an updated reflash based on it)?
      Correct

      Is APR willing to do the latter (reflashing ECUs that have been over-written by the dealer)?
      Yes

      And on a similar note...

      Can APR dealers reflash completely back to stock over the OBD port if APR reflash is present
      Yes

      (a subsequent reflash back to the APR file would need another ECU removal I assume)?
      Correct

      And if so, would they be willing to reflash the car back to the APR file again at a later date for just the labor cost?
      Yes.

      Once you buy software, all updates, reflashes and typically all stages that don't change the turbo are also free.

      You don't need to show any proof of ownership to get a reflash... We just know.... even if the ECU was completely replaced.

      It's up to the dealer on labor charges. We don't charge labor nor do we get a cut of any dealers charging labor.
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      03-22-2012 09:16 AM #68
      So has anyone here done this yet? Lots of folks said they had money burning a hole in their pocket but haven't heard anyone's impressions yet.
      My local dealer told me late last week they now have the new tuning hardware "station" but will not have the TT-RS specific adaptors for "several months" still. They have offered to R and R the ECU at their shop and send to APR, going to check today to see how much that would add to the cost.
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      03-22-2012 09:59 AM #69
      I know quite a few people have the software already, especially overseas.

      034 Motorsport recently had a dyno day and Evan@APR told me he was able to take a few people out in 034's TT RS with APR 91 octane software.
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      03-22-2012 11:21 AM #70
      Me and my wife will be on a road trip and we will be driving through AL on abobout. April 11 dose APR welcomes walk in servic and can we get a tour of this state of the art facility

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      03-22-2012 11:31 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by michalborz View Post
      Me and my wife will be on a road trip and we will be driving through AL on abobout. April 11 dose APR welcomes walk in servic and can we get a tour of this state of the art facility
      Why yes we do! Just stop on in!
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      03-22-2012 01:53 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by mtbscoTT View Post

      My local dealer told me late last week they now have the new tuning hardware "station" but will not have the TT-RS specific adaptors for "several months" still.
      Anxious for the reflash but not going to remove the ECU due to method reqired, will just have to wait. BUT, Arin, is "several months" mas accurate?
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      03-22-2012 02:03 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by LongviewTx View Post
      Anxious for the reflash but not going to remove the ECU due to method reqired, will just have to wait. BUT, Arin, is "several months" mas accurate?
      What method? Grinding a slot on the screw head to remove it? That is a bit of a nuisance. Otherwise, I think the removal looks pretty straight forward. It does look a little time consuming though. I wonder if APR dealers are going to charge extra for this "service", or if they view it as "included in the price".
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      03-22-2012 02:42 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by LongviewTx View Post
      Anxious for the reflash but not going to remove the ECU due to method reqired, will just have to wait. BUT, Arin, is "several months" mas accurate?
      The ECU removal method isn't going to change. Or are you referring to the reflash method before the custom harnesses exist? (is it a solder method or something?)

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      03-22-2012 02:47 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by DrDomm View Post
      I wonder if APR dealers are going to charge extra for this "service", or if they view it as "included in the price".
      I asked the local dealer for a quote and was told $899 for the software, 1 hour labor @ $105 for ECU R and R, plus tax, plus shipping to and from APR HQ. That's $1086 plus whatever the shipping is. A quick quote from UPS for insured overnight delivery back and forth is about $174! Yikes. At $1260 it will become perhaps the world's most expensive Stage I flash. I would really like to try it out but to be honest I'm balking at the cost.
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