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    Thread: APR Presents: North American TT RS 2.5 TFSI ECU Upgrade!

    1. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-12-2012 10:14 AM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by tdi-bart View Post
      hahaha

      Oh my lord!
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      03-12-2012 06:43 PM #37
      I've been on vacation, so I haven't been able to comment much.

      No one else questioned the price, so I guess it must be fair. But, I'm not sure how APR sets their pricing. Most people would figure that if you buy a piece of software (that can't be transferred), the cost should be the same regardless of what car it goes in. But APR has flashes that range from $600 to $900 to $1500. The price doesn't seem to be related to the performance gain, but more likely to the demographic of the car owner. Hmmm.

      Anyway, how certain is the "program switching"? That never came to fruition on the TTS, and I'm surprised it is somehow easier on the RS. Also, is that included in the price of the flash?
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      03-12-2012 07:15 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by DrDomm View Post
      I've been on vacation, so I haven't been able to comment much.

      No one else questioned the price, so I guess it must be fair. But, I'm not sure how APR sets their pricing. Most people would figure that if you buy a piece of software (that can't be transferred), the cost should be the same regardless of what car it goes in. But APR has flashes that range from $600 to $900 to $1500. The price doesn't seem to be related to the performance gain, but more likely to the demographic of the car owner. Hmmm.

      Anyway, how certain is the "program switching"? That never came to fruition on the TTS, and I'm surprised it is somehow easier on the RS. Also, is that included in the price of the flash?
      As a separate datapoint, I had a Cobb reflash on my Subaru STI. It uses a stand-alone programmer that programs over the OBD port and locks the reflash to your car. You can uninstall the reflash at any time, and then the programmer can be used to reflash a different car (so it has a resale value).

      I bought that Cobb reflash kit new for $650, and sold it 3 years later for $400. Cost of ownership: $250, or just 38% of the purchase price (neglecting the time value of money).

      If I buy an APR reflash for my TT-RS, the cost of ownership is $900, period. Quite a difference!

      Personally, I think the reflash cost of $900 is reasonable given the limited market *IF* I could resell it if I were to ever get rid of the car. The fact that the license isn't transferrable is a huge negative.

      The APR reflash would have the same cost of ownership of $900 if it instead cost $2500, but you could resell it later for $1600.

      Maybe (if the immobilizer and coding details could be worked out), fellow TT-RS owners could trade ECUs as a way to get around the inability to transfer the license? Certainly not ideal, but a possible work-around if APR doesn't want to help.
      Last edited by Marty; 03-12-2012 at 07:18 PM.
      2012 TT-RS in Suzuka Gray

    4. 03-12-2012 07:42 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by Marty View Post
      As a separate datapoint, I had a Cobb reflash on my Subaru STI. It uses a stand-alone programmer that programs over the OBD port and locks the reflash to your car. You can uninstall the reflash at any time, and then the programmer can be used to reflash a different car (so it has a resale value).

      I bought that Cobb reflash kit new for $650, and sold it 3 years later for $400. Cost of ownership: $250, or just 38% of the purchase price (neglecting the time value of money).

      If I buy an APR reflash for my TT-RS, the cost of ownership is $900, period. Quite a difference!

      Personally, I think the reflash cost of $900 is reasonable given the limited market *IF* I could resell it if I were to ever get rid of the car. The fact that the license isn't transferrable is a huge negative.

      The APR reflash would have the same cost of ownership of $900 if it instead cost $2500, but you could resell it later for $1600.

      Maybe (if the immobilizer and coding details could be worked out), fellow TT-RS owners could trade ECUs as a way to get around the inability to transfer the license? Certainly not ideal, but a possible work-around if APR doesn't want to help.


      I think the fact that you have to send in the ECU for the modification makes it more difficult to make this transferable. What if they have to make a physical change to the ECU circuitry? It might not be as simple as reloading the ROMs. With something like the Cobb access port I can see why it would be transferable because you've basically bought a license for the software that can be uninstalled and reinstalled.

    5. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-12-2012 07:56 PM #40
      The cost is directly related to r&d and volume.

      A GTI is easy and sells billions. Cheap.
      A ttrs requires new tuning tools and no one has this car. A little more expensive.
      An s4 is nearly impossible to crack and not many have this car. Expensive.
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    6. Member LongviewTx's Avatar
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      03-12-2012 08:03 PM #41
      for the record, I deem the price very fair for the performence gained and the expertise required to accomplish the feat.

      Can't wait for the dealers to be ready, I'll be in the parking lot the next morning when they arrive to work.
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      03-12-2012 09:00 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      The cost is directly related to r&d and volume.

      A GTI is easy and sells billions. Cheap.
      A ttrs requires new tuning tools and no one has this car. A little more expensive.
      An s4 is nearly impossible to crack and not many have this car. Expensive.
      Curious: what makes the S4 so difficult to crack compared to other Audis? Just a newer ECU with newer encryption methods?

      Quote Originally Posted by JohnLZ7W View Post
      I think the fact that you have to send in the ECU for the modification makes it more difficult to make this transferable. What if they have to make a physical change to the ECU circuitry? It might not be as simple as reloading the ROMs. With something like the Cobb access port I can see why it would be transferable because you've basically bought a license for the software that can be uninstalled and reinstalled.
      I can definitely see the challenges with the APR allowing license transfers. But it would be nice if you and your friend could drive down to the local APR dealer, bring your ECUs, and get the reflash swapped for a modest transfer fee. Disagree?
      2012 TT-RS in Suzuka Gray

    8. 03-12-2012 09:24 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by Marty View Post
      I can definitely see the challenges with the APR allowing license transfers. But it would be nice if you and your friend could drive down to the local APR dealer, bring your ECUs, and get the reflash swapped for a modest transfer fee. Disagree?
      Meh... it's pretty rare that I buy anything with resale in mind. I had the mk1 for 10yrs and 150k miles. I knew I wouldn't get anything for it when I sold it and it didn't bother me at all. If I was to chip the RS I think $900 is a fair price for what I'm getting so I don't care that I can't resell it later and amortize the cost down to $450 or whatever.

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      03-12-2012 09:40 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      The cost is directly related to r&d and volume.

      A GTI is easy and sells billions. Cheap.
      A ttrs requires new tuning tools and no one has this car. A little more expensive.
      An s4 is nearly impossible to crack and not many have this car. Expensive.
      How about the 2.0t guys... Why are we so left out

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      03-13-2012 12:07 AM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by JohnLZ7W View Post
      Meh... it's pretty rare that I buy anything with resale in mind. I had the mk1 for 10yrs and 150k miles. I knew I wouldn't get anything for it when I sold it and it didn't bother me at all. If I was to chip the RS I think $900 is a fair price for what I'm getting so I don't care that I can't resell it later and amortize the cost down to $450 or whatever.
      Fair enough.

      Now, where are those stage 3 details?
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    11. 03-13-2012 12:23 AM #46
      Hmm good question. The build threads on the UK forum have been quiet lately

    12. 03-13-2012 08:04 AM #47
      LOL @ Thread.

      "Wheres out tune bro?"
      "Damnit I'd buy this right now if you guys had it!!"

      Fast Forward:

      "Well, why does it cost xxx?"
      "Why can't I give it to a friend?"
      "Why can't APR make it like xxx"


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      03-13-2012 08:26 AM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      The cost is directly related to r&d and volume.

      A GTI is easy and sells billions. Cheap.
      A ttrs requires new tuning tools and no one has this car. A little more expensive.
      An s4 is nearly impossible to crack and not many have this car. Expensive.

      I wondered why the S4 was so expensive...strange.

      So the other part of my question was about the "program switching" option. When that is available, is it included in the $899 price?
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      03-13-2012 11:41 AM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by DrDomm View Post
      I wondered why the S4 was so expensive...strange.
      From another post:

      R&D was light years more expensive and lengthy on the S4 than the TTRS.

      The S4 uses a new ECU type: Continental Simos 8.
      The TT RS uses a "new" old ECU type: Bosch MED9 with Tuning Protection.

      We've worked with Bosch for over a decade. The TT RS uses an older operating system that was updated with new encryption. Getting in was and making new tools for this ECU was much easier and less expensive than the S4, however it was still difficult and required creating new tools to do so.

      The S4 uses Simos 8 which is new and went uncracked by anyone in the world long before and after APR came on the scene with software. It was far more complex and expensive. It's still an unknown for many.

      Long story short, it was simply way more expensive and complex to crack and tune the B8 S4 and our pricing reflects that.


      So the other part of my question was about the "program switching" option. When that is available, is it included in the $899 price?
      If you buy the software before program switching is available, all of the features and programs that will fit onto the ECU will be given to you for free, otherwise if you purchase the ECU after program switching is available, they will cost extra.
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      03-13-2012 12:26 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by joneze93tsi View Post
      LOL @ Thread.

      "Wheres out tune bro?"
      "Damnit I'd buy this right now if you guys had it!!"

      Fast Forward:

      "Well, why does it cost xxx?"
      "Why can't I give it to a friend?"
      "Why can't APR make it like xxx"

      Exactly my thought!

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      03-13-2012 01:19 PM #51
      of course happens when I´m on vacation


      Will wait patiently for the 91 octane graphs.... dont get my car till May anyway.

      Hard to find 93 up here in chilly Alberta, Canada
      Last edited by YYC Dubber; 03-13-2012 at 01:46 PM.

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      03-13-2012 02:18 PM #52
      In layman's terms, why is the new installation hardware needed for the TT-RS? It looks like a simple board with connectors that simply hook up to the ECU once pulled from the car. How is this different from using the OBD port? Has Audi/Bosch somehow limited what info can be sent through the OBD port and wiring? What kind of info can the dealer read/update from the OBD port, or do they too need to remove it for updates? Not doubting, just curious what exactly made this change necessary.
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    18. 03-13-2012 02:52 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by YYC Dubber View Post
      of course happens when I´m on vacation


      Will wait patiently for the 91 octane graphs.... dont get my car till May anyway.

      Hard to find 93 up here in chilly Alberta, Canada
      Why does it matter what the 91 octane graphs are? All of the tuners will probably lose about the same percent performance going from 93 to 91.

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      03-13-2012 03:41 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by mtbscoTT View Post
      In layman's terms, why is the new installation hardware needed for the TT-RS?
      The new ECU has 1024 bit encryption, which even supercomputers cannot crack.

      It looks like a simple board with connectors that simply hook up to the ECU once pulled from the car. How is this different from using the OBD port?
      By connecting directly to the ECU, there are ways around the encryption.

      Has Audi/Bosch somehow limited what info can be sent through the OBD port and wiring?
      You can send the same info back and forth through the port as you always could, except the ECU will not allow new programming unless the ECU is presented with a 1028 bit key that's specific to the exact combination of bits within the ECU, which completely changes every time you change a bit. It's RAS 1024 bit encryption if you want to check it out on the googlnets.

      What kind of info can the dealer read/update from the OBD port, or do they too need to remove it for updates? Not doubting, just curious what exactly made this change necessary.
      The dealership can flash the ECU because the file they get from audi already has the RAS key generated for the exact file they are flashing. We could look at this RAS key all we want, but it doesn't matter because if you change 1 bit on the ECU, the key needs to be totally recalculated. It's also not as simple as comparing two or three ECU's in an attempt to reverse engineer how the key was generated. You simply would need to know the master key in order to do that.
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      03-13-2012 04:31 PM #55
      Thanks for the explanation. I also spoke to someone at one of your local dealers this afternoon and he explained it to me in even more elementary terms that I could understand. He told me he had driven your test car and can't wait to do an install locally.
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      03-13-2012 04:46 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      If you buy the software before program switching is available, all of the features and programs that will fit onto the ECU will be given to you for free, otherwise if you purchase the ECU after program switching is available, they will cost extra.
      So if I send you my ECU before program switching is available, I can then send it back or take it to a dealer to update it to have program switching when it's available for free?

      But if I wait til it's available, I have to pay extra for it? I'm not sure that makes sense to me...other than enticing people to get the base software, even if program switching never is available.

      I have 2 issues. I think the software is worth the cost with program switching...just to go back to stock for dealer visits. I'd go install it right now if both were available at a reputable dealer nearby. That's not the case. My closest dealer is 2.5 hours away. I'm interested in shipping my ECU, but not til the 3rd week in April when I'm away from my RS...but I'm assuming by then the shipping option will be gone.

      This is slightly more complicated than I'd like. I'd be happy if APR committed to including program switching to stock in the price permanently, and if they kept the option of shipping them your ECU if there is no dealer within 60 miles.

      BTW, can I assume that the program is not able to be overwritten at the dealer? Again, when flashing is so tedious (no local APR dealer and no flash tool) it makes this important.

      Also, I was always under the impression that APR made different files for different octanes? It sounds like that is not the case.
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    22. 03-13-2012 05:35 PM #57
      switching to stock mode i doubt is going to go unnoticed, i think you would have to flash original soft back on, go read whats going on with the S4's right now on audizine....

      arin can you comment how much higher boost has been increased, 1-2 psi? etc and would it be a problem for high elevation places, such as 4000ft

    23. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-13-2012 06:39 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by DrDomm View Post
      So if I send you my ECU before program switching is available, I can then send it back or take it to a dealer to update it to have program switching when it's available for free?
      Yes sir!

      But if I wait til it's available, I have to pay extra for it?
      Correct!

      I'm not sure that makes sense to me...other than enticing people to get the base software, even if program switching never is available.
      You can look at it any way you want, but this is exactly what we did for the Audi A3 2.0 TSI, Audi A4 2.0 TFSI VL and Audi S4 3.0 TFSI.

      I have 2 issues. I think the software is worth the cost with program switching...just to go back to stock for dealer visits. I'd go install it right now if both were available at a reputable dealer nearby. That's not the case. My closest dealer is 2.5 hours away. I'm interested in shipping my ECU, but not til the 3rd week in April when I'm away from my RS...but I'm assuming by then the shipping option will be gone.
      You can always ship the ECU. We'll never take away this option. Some people simply do not have a local APR dealer, so shipping will always be possible.

      This is slightly more complicated than I'd like. I'd be happy if APR committed to including program switching to stock in the price permanently, and if they kept the option of shipping them your ECU if there is no dealer within 60 miles.
      We don't have any plans for that but as I mentioned, shipping directly to APR is always an option.

      BTW, can I assume that the program is not able to be overwritten at the dealer? Again, when flashing is so tedious (no local APR dealer and no flash tool) it makes this important.
      The dealer can flash over the ECU if they have an update and usually you should allow them to do so. As far as I understand, they can't do this update without your permission, so if you really want, you can tell them no. Typically, you'll want the update, and we'll provide you with an update of our software that includes the updates they've made. The good thing is it seems they don't have many updates these days. The MK6 GTI's been around for years now and they're not updating those ECU's as far as I know.

      Also, I was always under the impression that APR made different files for different octanes? It sounds like that is not the case.
      We do offer different files for different octanes. We have files for the following:

      91 (R+M)/2
      93 (R+M)/2
      100 (R+M)/2
      95 RON
      98 RON
      104 RON




      Quote Originally Posted by tdi-bart View Post
      arin can you comment how much higher boost has been increased, 1-2 psi? etc and would it be a problem for high elevation places, such as 4000ft
      Boost is not a set number as the ECU is it's based on engine load and load is based on calculated mass airflow and mass airflow will change at different altitudes and ambient conditions. The ECU's also smart enough to not burn up the turbos at high altitude nor do we max out the turbos, especially on a stage 1 ECU upgrade. I'll see if I can gather some information from engineering to figure out approximately how much more boost pressure one will see, just keep in mind, it's not a set number so it will never be identical.
      Last edited by Arin@APR; 03-13-2012 at 06:43 PM.
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      03-13-2012 06:41 PM #59
      Wow. Finally.

      If I still had mine, I'd be knocking on the door at Goodspeed once they got the ability to flash the ECU there.

      Should be an awesome upgrade!

    25. 03-13-2012 06:54 PM #60
      The price is great.

      The results are great.

      And without a doubt...the service and support will be great.



      If I would be willing to pay $600 for a GTI tune....then $1500 for the TTRS would be justifiable. Biggest plus being that it is a trustworthy tune.
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      03-13-2012 06:56 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by 8J35R9 View Post
      The price is great.

      The results are great.

      And without a doubt...the service and support will be great.



      If I would be willing to pay $600 for a GTI tune....then $1500 for the TTRS would be justifiable. Biggest plus being that it is a trustworthy tune.
      It's actually only $899, but I'm willing to make an exception and raise the price if that's what you want!
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    27. 03-13-2012 07:17 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      It's actually only $899, but I'm willing to make an exception and raise the price if that's what you want!
      Well heck, then I'll take two. Would that double the amplitude of those curves on your graphy thing?

      I did see the price. Just not a evry good rwiter.
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    28. 03-13-2012 07:21 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post


      Boost is not a set number as the ECU is it's based on engine load and load is based on calculated mass airflow and mass airflow will change at different altitudes and ambient conditions. The ECU's also smart enough to not burn up the turbos at high altitude nor do we max out the turbos, especially on a stage 1 ECU upgrade. I'll see if I can gather some information from engineering to figure out approximately how much more boost pressure one will see, just keep in mind, it's not a set number so it will never be identical.
      yes as i understand the ecu is programmed to make a certain load, so boost will vary based on altitude, higher altitudes it will need more boost the make the same amount of load/power than lower altitudes... but i assume the increase in boost for stage1 is the same no matter what altitude you are at, but if you are saying at higher altitudes its not being maxed thats all i wanted to know really, 4000ft isnt that high yet, but 8000-10000ft hmmm

      http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ai...ure-d_462.html

      if i am reading that chart correctly, it means the turbo has to make 2 psi more boost at 4000ft than sea level, 10k ft would be 4.5 extra psi

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      03-14-2012 02:02 AM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by gogogadget View Post
      How about the 2.0t guys... Why are we so left out
      You seem to answer all the questions relating to the 2.5 tune, please PM or reply... Patiently waiting

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      03-14-2012 02:41 AM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      The dealer can flash over the ECU if they have an update and usually you should allow them to do so. As far as I understand, they can't do this update without your permission, so if you really want, you can tell them no. Typically, you'll want the update, and we'll provide you with an update of our software that includes the updates they've made. The good thing is it seems they don't have many updates these days. The MK6 GTI's been around for years now and they're not updating those ECU's as far as I know.
      Let me see if I understand this: if the TT has an APR reflash, and there is a software update that the dealer would like to apply and we say okay, then the dealer can reflash the car with the Audi update (overwriting the APR reflash) with no issues?

      And assuming that happens, then to get the APR reflash back, we'd have to go to an APR dealer and remove the ECU again (or remove it and mail it to APR headquarters), who would then have to reflash it again (assuming APR had the new file and had created an updated reflash based on it)?

      Is APR willing to do the latter (reflashing ECUs that have been over-written by the dealer)?

      And on a similar note...

      Can APR dealers reflash completely back to stock over the OBD port if APR reflash is present (a subsequent reflash back to the APR file would need another ECU removal I assume)? And if so, would they be willing to reflash the car back to the APR file again at a later date for just the labor cost?
      Last edited by Marty; 03-14-2012 at 02:43 AM.
      2012 TT-RS in Suzuka Gray

    31. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-14-2012 11:49 AM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by gogogadget View Post
      You seem to answer all the questions relating to the 2.5 tune, please PM or reply... Patiently waiting
      I have specific TT 2.0L tune threads. We need a car in house to finalize marketing material before I can launch the software.
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    32. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-14-2012 11:56 AM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Marty View Post
      Let me see if I understand this: if the TT has an APR reflash, and there is a software update that the dealer would like to apply and we say okay, then the dealer can reflash the car with the Audi update (overwriting the APR reflash) with no issues?
      Correct

      And assuming that happens, then to get the APR reflash back, we'd have to go to an APR dealer and remove the ECU again (or remove it and mail it to APR headquarters), who would then have to reflash it again (assuming APR had the new file and had created an updated reflash based on it)?
      Correct

      Is APR willing to do the latter (reflashing ECUs that have been over-written by the dealer)?
      Yes

      And on a similar note...

      Can APR dealers reflash completely back to stock over the OBD port if APR reflash is present
      Yes

      (a subsequent reflash back to the APR file would need another ECU removal I assume)?
      Correct

      And if so, would they be willing to reflash the car back to the APR file again at a later date for just the labor cost?
      Yes.

      Once you buy software, all updates, reflashes and typically all stages that don't change the turbo are also free.

      You don't need to show any proof of ownership to get a reflash... We just know.... even if the ECU was completely replaced.

      It's up to the dealer on labor charges. We don't charge labor nor do we get a cut of any dealers charging labor.
      GoAPR.com | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Instagram
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      Address: APR LLC, 4800 US HWY 280 West, Opelika, AL 36801

    33. Member
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      03-22-2012 09:16 AM #68
      So has anyone here done this yet? Lots of folks said they had money burning a hole in their pocket but haven't heard anyone's impressions yet.
      My local dealer told me late last week they now have the new tuning hardware "station" but will not have the TT-RS specific adaptors for "several months" still. They have offered to R and R the ECU at their shop and send to APR, going to check today to see how much that would add to the cost.
      Houston, TX
      2012 Porsche Carrera 991

    34. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      03-22-2012 09:59 AM #69
      I know quite a few people have the software already, especially overseas.

      034 Motorsport recently had a dyno day and Evan@APR told me he was able to take a few people out in 034's TT RS with APR 91 octane software.
      GoAPR.com | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Instagram
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    35. Member michalborz's Avatar
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      03-22-2012 11:21 AM #70
      Me and my wife will be on a road trip and we will be driving through AL on abobout. April 11 dose APR welcomes walk in servic and can we get a tour of this state of the art facility

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