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    Thread: Kinetic Stage 1 open dump Wideband AFR results

    1. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      03-22-2012 07:15 PM #1
      Got Atwood 1.33 for the tune 30#, open dump, precision t3/t4 2.5 dp 3 inch MBS out. Removed the SAI and 2ndary 02 sensor -- 6 psi non intercooled.

      afr's are in the 10's at wot 10 is the lowest it goes, it will say 10 or in the mid 10's, feels like its slow at wot compared to part throttle where its up around 12ish. I know its an old tune... Just want to see if there is anything I can do besides getting a new 02 sensor that might correct some of this.

      The only code is for the emissions junk, which i know the chip will write out. I also have the SAI solenoid removed as well, not sure if that hurts.

      I need the check valve that goes to the evap system, so its left open/disconnected. I also should get a check valve to the break booster.

      Happy to be boosting, now to dial it in.
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    2. Member DubmyRUCA's Avatar
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      03-23-2012 08:46 AM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by Corrado****** View Post
      afr's are in the 10's at wot 10 is the lowest it goes, it will say 10 or in the mid 10's, feels like its slow at wot compared to part throttle where its up around 12ish. I know its an old tune... Just want to see if there is anything I can do besides getting a new 02 sensor that might correct some of this.
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...th-C2-software
      This worked for him^ I'm running OBDI and preventing the throttle from hitting WOT didn't help my setup from running super rich up top.


      Quote Originally Posted by Corrado****** View Post
      I need the check valve that goes to the evap system, so its left open/disconnected. I also should get a check valve to the break booster.

      Happy to be boosting, now to dial it in.
      Should be a stock check valve on the brake booster but yea you do need a check valve if you are keeping evap.

    3. 03-26-2012 02:42 AM #3
      If the software was designed to 'write out" the code for your "emissions junk", then you wouldn't have a code, so you either didn't delete something properly that the chip is designed to ignore, or you deleted something that the chip is expecting to utilize.

      What is/are the codes?

      I know some of the c2 versions need to see that sai solenoid or a resistor to simulate it.
      I doubt a new o2 sensor will help anything for long if the root cause of a dead o2 sensor is something else causing fouling and failure of the sensor.

      Functional check valves should be correctly positioned wherever necessary.

      Take care of any other mickey-mouse sh:+ that you have going on there, get the car set up properly, reset the ecu, and try again.
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    4. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      03-27-2012 11:17 PM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by 'dubber View Post
      If the software was designed to 'write out" the code for your "emissions junk", then you wouldn't have a code, so you either didn't delete something properly that the chip is designed to ignore, or you deleted something that the chip is expecting to utilize.

      What is/are the codes?

      I know some of the c2 versions need to see that sai solenoid or a resistor to simulate it.
      I doubt a new o2 sensor will help anything for long if the root cause of a dead o2 sensor is something else causing fouling and failure of the sensor.

      Functional check valves should be correctly positioned wherever necessary.

      Take care of any other mickey-mouse sh:+ that you have going on there, get the car set up properly, reset the ecu, and try again.

      My current chip does not write them out. I am not sure how to put the solenoid back in there with the head plugged? (just plug it into the electrical connection with nothing hooked up?) others have had this rich at wot condition so it's prolly just the old tune. I would buy a new one for stage 1 but for what it's worth I'm just gonna buy the stage 2 UM to get through emissions unless I can find a used newer stage one UM chil floating around.

      My 2.9 JE IE ARP rebuilt block should be ready by may... Gotta fab up the intercooler and get some green tops, should be ship shape by summer.

      My o2 functions fine I think, no codes. I have 4 codes, SAI mal, SAI something or other... And 2 for secondary o2 (post cat) its unplugged and removed because 3 inch test pipe.
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    5. 03-28-2012 09:44 AM #5
      Ok well you can ignore the *post cat* o2 code in terms of fueling. That will not affect fueling. The sai code will, however. I think you can fool the obd2 ecu with a resistor or leaving the solenoid plugged in, but search that some more to be exactly sure.
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    6. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 04:48 PM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by 'dubber View Post
      Ok well you can ignore the *post cat* o2 code in terms of fueling. That will not affect fueling. The sai code will, however. I think you can fool the obd2 ecu with a resistor or leaving the solenoid plugged in, but search that some more to be exactly sure.
      Sounds good thanks
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    7. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 10:08 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by DubmyRUCA View Post
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...th-C2-software
      This worked for him^ I'm running OBDI and preventing the throttle from hitting WOT didn't help my setup from running super rich up top.




      Should be a stock check valve on the brake booster but yea you do need a check valve if you are keeping evap.

      So this setup just runs super rich up top? UM was telling me I need to use a stock mafs housing on there stage 1 chip instead of the c2 95mm mafs that comes along with the kinetic kit. Stage 1 and 2 together for just the tune is 700? I mind as well just buy a stand alone... But I wanna keep it somewhat factory...

      So buying the new updated chip with clear all this up? Doubt I'll fork over the 300 for stage 1 I may just go right to 2 and still keep the boost down to 6 psi until I'm ready to crank it up.
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    8. 03-28-2012 10:53 PM #8
      You are most likely running rich due to the sai code, which is most likely affecting the fuel trims or not allowing the car to trim at all, if its stuck in a pre-programmed fuel table in relation to the code being thrown.
      You might have other issues as well.

      Well I'm going standalone soon, but I have mostly throttle response issues and closer to lean up top vs. rich. I'm using a c2 obd1 36lb coilpack chip which tends to be a lot more cranky than obd2 chips..

      I don't know about all of that throttle position trickery, if they're keeping it in closed loop by avoiding wot, I would think it's just a band-aid for whatever is preventing the car from running properly in open loop such as problems with spark, airflow, fuel delivery, vac leaks, etc, and they are getting the ecu to keep tweaking the mix. I guess that will work for a while but the ecu fuel trims will eventually get slewed anyway due to constantly correcting, and I would imagine that they are preventing the most amount of air from being sucked into the engine due to the throttle plate not being opened fully...
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    9. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 08:13 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by 'dubber View Post
      You are most likely running rich due to the sai code, which is most likely affecting the fuel trims or not allowing the car to trim at all, if its stuck in a pre-programmed fuel table in relation to the code being thrown.
      You might have other issues as well.

      Well I'm going standalone soon, but I have mostly throttle response issues and closer to lean up top vs. rich. I'm using a c2 obd1 36lb coilpack chip which tends to be a lot more cranky than obd2 chips..

      I don't know about all of that throttle position trickery, if they're keeping it in closed loop by avoiding wot, I would think it's just a band-aid for whatever is preventing the car from running properly in open loop such as problems with spark, airflow, fuel delivery, vac leaks, etc, and they are getting the ecu to keep tweaking the mix. I guess that will work for a while but the ecu fuel trims will eventually get slewed anyway due to constantly correcting, and I would imagine that they are preventing the most amount of air from being sucked into the engine due to the throttle plate not being opened fully...
      ill plug the solenoid back in, but it should still throw a SAI related code. It's probably just the tune since its older and it being so rich up top seems to be common. Unless someone is rolling on a 2006 c2 chip (non stacked) or atwood (thats what mine says) and they are not getting the rich condition at wot. The others that have had this did not say if they had there emissions stuff, so I assume they do. Just need a new tune pretty much I guess, or my 02 is tired. I'll try and work around the SAI and do some more research to tweak it to see if any changes get made.

      I wanna double check for slight exhaust leaks... at first it was plausible for me that it was the open dump since this only opens up at WOT as well.
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    10. 03-29-2012 09:33 AM #10
      THe chip does not use the o2 input at high loads like WOT so an open dump probably won't matter there, an exhaust leak in most cases won't affect the afr since you're just leaking it, not changing the mix of whats leaking.

      But if you're throwing a code, the adaptive fuel trims might be locked out and your're running on a preprogrammed "safe" map.... scan it again with vagcom and check to see if the fuel trims are adapting at all or simply stuck at "1" ...if they're stuck you're running a preset map and you'll probably have to get rid of the sai code before it will start to run normally.
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    11. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 10:41 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by 'dubber View Post
      THe chip does not use the o2 input at high loads like WOT so an open dump probably won't matter there, an exhaust leak in most cases won't affect the afr since you're just leaking it, not changing the mix of whats leaking.

      But if you're throwing a code, the adaptive fuel trims might be locked out and your're running on a preprogrammed "safe" map.... scan it again with vagcom and check to see if the fuel trims are adapting at all or simply stuck at "1" ...if they're stuck you're running a preset map and you'll probably have to get rid of the sai code before it will start to run normally.
      i dont have a vag com, but i do have a specific hand held for VAG. What Measure Block is the fuel trim? I've seen the one where the a/f is measured in percentage or something.
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    12. 03-29-2012 11:07 AM #12
      Well i'm not sure for obd2 which blocks or how many.
      I look at 7 or 8.....I'm able to see active o2 input and also stft and ltft trims, and open loop is always at 1 in the trim display.
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    13. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 11:09 AM #13
      ok ill have to check that out, its over heating i think because of a thermo stat stuck shut... i gotta replace the housing, but a bolt got stripped out so i gotta break it and get the bolt out with a grips, replace with another housing I have.
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    14. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 04:03 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by 'dubber View Post
      Well i'm not sure for obd2 which blocks or how many.
      I look at 7 or 8.....I'm able to see active o2 input and also stft and ltft trims, and open loop is always at 1 in the trim display.
      7 or 8 didn't do anything for me. Active 02 input comes off as a percentage if I recall correctly not a whole number.

      7 shows coolant temp and i think mafs....

      8 was showing something different

      9 was showing something about part throttle/full throttle and some other stuff related to that.

      I know its a percent because if its + or - 3% that shows if your 02 is reading correctly.

      I think its just the tune if obd-1 guys are putting throttle stops for wot ... Anyone else with a stage 1 non intercooled older chip run into this? The SAI could be right though. I have the solenoid, what do i do just plug the electrical part in and leave the vac lines open?

      the vac lines on the solenoid
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    15. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 06:57 PM #15


      Is this the thing that needs to be plugged back in? I may have broken the electrical connector removing the engine a while ago. Do the vac lines have to be hooked up? The hole for the combi is plugged with a freeze plug.

      I have two for sale and a SAI pump Let me know haha
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    16. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 06:59 PM #16
      hopefully i can find someone upgrading to stage 2 i can buy there stage 1 UM chip, heard they are better than c2. I dont want to knock c2 but they don't even answer the phone half the time, if they reflash once you buy there chip for the difference of say stage 1 to 2 i may be swayed. Stand alones are looking more economical at this point for the money these chip tuners want through the stages for off the shelf tunes

      oh cuz everyone loves pictures

      a shady kid sold me a motor with a spun rod bearing, love it. i just kept driving on it to get it back and forth.

      its off topic and happened a month or so ago, just never posted them up, thought some of you might get a chuckle. I since now have a 67K mile longblock from a reputable salvage yard. She loves the boost so far so good at 6 lbs.

      just want to get the AFR's settled out. A stand alone would be great so I can actually hook up the wideband to the ecu to see what it sees.

      The Motronic uses narrowband correct?
      Last edited by CorradoFuhrer; 03-29-2012 at 07:04 PM.
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    17. 04-02-2012 02:56 AM #17
      mk4+ ecu uses wideband everything before mk4 uses narrow. also, just plug in the solenoid to the electrical connector. you dont need the vac lines plugged in. the ecu just checks to see the solenoid is plugged in to the electrical connector. if the solenoid is not plugged in your car goes rich because the ecu is overcompensating because it is not getting input from the o2's or controlling them. it is just assigining a vlaue instead of a constant adjustment that is determined from the 02. plug in the solenoid and your ecu will allow the o2 adjustment to occur and you should be way better on target to the A/F youre supposed to have, 12.5 or whatever it is....
      Quote Originally Posted by BlueVR View Post

      yes i am still into Vag...

    18. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      04-02-2012 10:24 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by hubbell View Post
      mk4+ ecu uses wideband everything before mk4 uses narrow. also, just plug in the solenoid to the electrical connector. you dont need the vac lines plugged in. the ecu just checks to see the solenoid is plugged in to the electrical connector. if the solenoid is not plugged in your car goes rich because the ecu is overcompensating because it is not getting input from the o2's or controlling them. it is just assigining a vlaue instead of a constant adjustment that is determined from the 02. plug in the solenoid and your ecu will allow the o2 adjustment to occur and you should be way better on target to the A/F youre supposed to have, 12.5 or whatever it is....
      Yes this did work. I have Atwood version 1.33 in my car right now. It's seems great, but i'm reading that the newer current stuff under him UM is worth the price tag. I also would like to write out the emissions stuff altogether to get my CEL turned off.

      My only gripe is that I would like to be in the stage II area so I dont have to buy stage 1 then buy stage 2 like a few months down the line. Can I run the stage II with the green tops and just keep it at 6 psi?

      I mean to buy 1 and 2 (I guess you get two chips right I can resell the other one if i'm lucky) is around 700+ dollars. I can start getting into stand alones with support (not doing MS again). I can also use my wideband to show the stand alone 02 for more accurate tuning (or have UM do a custom tune on the dyno).

      The car is pretty good, i've just been babying it because its my DD. Definitely woke it up with the solenoid plugged back in.

      I'm building a 2.9 block as we speak JE (9:1) + IE + ARP, hoping to max out the Precision t3/t4 I have, which will probably require the stand alone or UM stage III + injectors + fuel pump.

      Stage II would be cool for now until I get the other motor in (with spacer or w/o with boost dialed down).


      That's where i'm at. For some reason there stage 1 uses a stock maf housing, i already got that 95mm job on there. Just need no CEL like asap so the chip whatever stage might be my only option.
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    19. Member V-dubbulyuh's Avatar
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      04-02-2012 10:41 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Corrado****** View Post
      Can I run the stage II with the green tops and just keep it at 6 psi?
      Yes Sir.


      BTW, those pics with the carnage are sexy.
      "OP sounds like a MKIV guy"

    20. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      04-02-2012 07:01 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by V-dubbulyuh View Post
      Yes Sir.


      BTW, those pics with the carnage are sexy.
      yea thats what happends when someone sells you a motor with a spun rod bearing, and you just keep driving it... oh well.

      anyways, that might be what I will do since everyone is swearing by UM>C2 in my searches.

      However, C2 will only charge you for the remainder of the price for a reflash, where as UM you have to buy the chip at face value you every time. damn it.

      My chip doesn't say c2 it says atwood on it though, but it was apart of a kinetic kit which I thought were all done by C2? (I know the history of both companies).

      Maybe I can wait to get to a show and get a discounted price or even a dynotune file. I was hoping to find a used one from someone who's upgrading.

      at 700 thats stand alone numbers... i always felt cool with a laptop plugged in driving around.
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    21. 04-08-2012 10:20 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by 'dubber View Post

      But if you're throwing a code, the adaptive fuel trims might be locked out and your're running on a preprogrammed "safe" map.... scan it again with vagcom and check to see if the fuel trims are adapting at all or simply stuck at "1" ...if they're stuck you're running a preset map and you'll probably have to get rid of the sai code before it will start to run normally.
      this IS what happens when you do not have the SAI valve plugged in

    22. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 01:52 AM #22
      its plugged in and new c2 chip is out fn standing
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    23. Member MRosier's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 12:39 PM #23
      so you got the new 30# chip and still had to have the solenoid plugged in?

    24. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 06:30 PM #24
      i never unplugged it? i dont know?
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    25. 04-09-2012 08:42 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by 4SaleCabrio View Post
      this IS what happens when you do not have the SAI valve plugged in
      Ok, well not on MY car, which is why I said MIGHT. =/
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    26. Member CorradoFuhrer's Avatar
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      04-12-2012 04:48 PM #26
      I seem to be pushing more than 6 lbs when I hammer on it, I may have a small vac leak near the booster. The AFR's are safe, as well as the engine temp. I am going to get a boost controller at some point (cheapo ebay one for now) what are the warning signs that I am getting too high? I know I can't go above 10 (even intercooled) for being non intercooled... What do I watch out for when raising it a tad'?
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