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    Thread: Project Air Charge Cooling " a different approach "

    1. 03-22-2012 11:10 PM #1
      First thread as a member, yay!

      I have been wanting to work on my IAT charge cooling for a while now. There are many ways to do it, all with different results (no, the usual "get a FMIC" won't cut for me). My goal, as usual, is to get the best possible setup for my application. No cutting corners, no compromise, just straight up business. I went back and forth with what design would work best and finally decided on something I think would complement the rest of the setup.

      Before I dive into it, just to bring those not familiar with my car up to speed, I have an 01 225Q roadster. Stock turbo, manifolds and internals with the exception of drop-in IEs. Full 3" straight turbo back and Velocity stacked intake (downpipe and intake courtesy of my sponsor and kick ass company 42 Draft Designs). I run 33 psi boost tapering to about 25 psi on E85 ethanol and water injection on 630cc injectors. Tuning tweaks are done with Unisetting over a generic GIAC flash.

      The goal for this project is to bring IAT down as much as possible while removing as much restrictions and pressure drop from the system.

      Part 1) Intake manifold

      To get to the level of water injection I needed, the basic single or dual nozzle wouldn't be enough. I already had a single directly ported nozzle (aiming at supplying the problematic first cylinder runner that usually starve for juice). I decided to go full direct port water injection. As the name suggests, each cylinder will get equal amount/distribution of water through a nozzle plumbed and dedicated to each runner.

      Ports aiming at each runner ( didn't want to port the runner to avoid spraying at a wall )










      Nozzles plumbed





      I also decided while I'm at it to delete the annoying vacuum ports under the manifold and side ported it





      Final product





      Part 2) Heat Exchange

      I ran dual SMIC for a while, then experimented with great results deletion of one of the SMIC (gained 3 psi from boost onset to redline where a 3 psi gain is awesome on a chocking small frame turbo). Please don't attempt this if you have a 225, I did it because I have an elaborate water injection system to back it up.

      Now it's finally time for air-to-water intercooling! I thought long and hard about what core to use and what design. The barrel types are nice for fitment but trails in terms of performance over the square tanks. I also didn't want a core that doesn't have the inlet/outlet facing each other (straight through is the name of the game whenever pressure drop is important). I decided to go with a 550 cfm rectangular unit rated at 0.1 psi pressure drop. I feel that it would be ideal for the space available in the TT's engine bay without major surgery. The short route plumbing is also pretty sweet and with water injection to back this up, I feel that it would be an ideal setup for lowering IAT close to or even sub-ambient, without hurting pressure from turbo to manifold. The rest of the setup would consist of a side mounted radiator and a trunk mounted water/ice box. The TT 3.2 auxiliary radiator is the choice for now and maybe something aftermarket later if it is struggling to keep the water cool (I will have decent volume). I haven't decided on what pump to run and is open for suggestions. Now some pictures!





      Core





      Lower support bracket fabricated and core mounted






      Pipe mock up







      Part 3) Pre-turbo injection

      The process of injecting before the turbo has its specific advantages when done properly. On a turbo that is running past its efficiency range, like my poor K04, a wet compression will reduce adiabatic loss and bring the compression closer to an isothermal compression. What that does, without turning this into a thermodynamics class, is shift the compressor map to the right and giving you the effect of a bigger compressor by a certain percentage.

      We have been going through design ideas in the 1.8t technical forums since we are dealing with an extremely small turbo inlet that leaves limited room for mounting nozzles without creating substantial airflow restrictions. I want to spray as close as possible to the compressor blade but with 2 miniature jets that will guarantee instant atomization and keep volume high. I will be fabricating a nozzle mount next week and continue to update the thread.


      A few ideas below but I want to reduce flow restriction over these designs to a minimum.
      Please feel free to discuss, critique and give inputs as long as they are intelligent ones (this forums in desperate need for intelligent and technical discussions )







      Last edited by Marcus_Aurelius; 03-23-2012 at 09:51 AM.

    2. Member Tempes_TT's Avatar
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      03-22-2012 11:46 PM #2
      Subscribed.
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      03-23-2012 03:31 AM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      First thread as a member, yay!


      The goal for this project is to bring IAT down as much as possible while removing as much restrictions and pressure drop from the system.

      Part 1) Intake manifold

      To get to the level of water injection I needed, the basic single or dual nozzle wouldn't be enough. I already had a single directly ported nozzle (aiming at supplying the problematic first cylinder runner that usually starve for juice). I decided to go full direct port water injection. As the name suggests, each cylinder will get equal amount/distribution of water through a nozzle plumbed and dedicated to each runner.

      Ports aiming at each runner ( didn't want to port the runner to avoid spraying at a wall )










      Nozzles plumbed





      I also decided while I'm at it to delete the annoying vacuum ports under the manifold and side ported it





      Final product





      Part 2) Heat Exchange

      I ran dual SMIC for a while, then experimented with great results deletion of one of the SMIC (gained 3 psi from boost onset to redline where a 3 psi gain is awesome on a chocking small frame turbo). Please don't attempt this if you have a 225, I did it because I have an elaborate water injection system to back it up.

      Now it's finally time for air-to-water intercooling! I thought long and hard about what core to use and what design. The barrel types are nice for fitment but trails in terms of performance over the square tanks. I also didn't want a core that doesn't have the inlet/outlet facing each other (straight through is the name of the game whenever pressure drop is important). I decided to go with a 550 cfm rectangular unit rated at 0.1 psi pressure drop. I feel that it would be ideal for the space available in the TT's engine bay without major surgery. The short route plumbing is also pretty sweet and with water injection to back this up, I feel that it would be an ideal setup for lowering IAT close to or even sub-ambient, without hurting pressure from turbo to manifold. The rest of the setup would consist of a side mounted radiator and a trunk mounted water/ice box. The TT 3.2 auxiliary radiator is the choice for now and maybe something aftermarket later if it is struggling to keep the water cool (I will have decent volume). I haven't decided on what pump to run and is open for suggestions. Now some pictures!





      Core





      Lower support bracket fabricated and core mounted






      Pipe mock up







      Part 3) Pre-turbo injection

      The process of injecting before the turbo has its specific advantages when done properly. On a turbo that is running past its efficiency range, like my poor K04, a wet compression will reduce adiabatic loss and bring the compression closer to an isothermal compression. What that does, without turning this into a chemistry class, is shift the compressor map to the right and giving you the effect of a bigger compressor by a certain percentage.

      We have been going through design ideas in the 1.8t technical forums since we are dealing with an extremely small turbo inlet that leaves limited room for mounting nozzles without creating substantial airflow restrictions. I want to spray as close as possible to the compressor blade but with 2 miniature jets that will guarantee instant atomization and keep volume high. I will be fabricating a nozzle mount next week and continue to update the thread.


      A few ideas below but I want to reduce flow restriction over these designs to a minimum.
      Please feel free to discuss, critique and give inputs as long as they are intelligent ones (this forums in desperate need for intelligent and technical discussions )








      Salute

      I"ll share my thoughts with u dear TT'er and start by saying : thank you for sharing this amazing experience of yours , documenting your progress which much approval and admiration from all who follows and keep sub'ing ur info'rich threads .

      Now enough drama and lets focus on that goal of yours which i share too (living in sever hot dusty climate)

      1- Intake manifold :

      Amazing idea four "inj-to-runner" method is direct approach,my question:

      What's ur average MAP-MAF-AFR/water-in-air saturation? in a sense of with the amount of Pre-watered-pressurized-air entering the chamber of the manifold with 4 tiny inj's misting !?

      *Airflow in relation with the direction of four water inj.'s with air entering the runners drawing!
      *idea :Venturi-runners


      2- Heat exhange :

      I'm putting together AWIC system and considering the exact same idea for cylinder-like cooler replacing our oem intercoolerpipe support arm keeping the OEM+ look & proving some room for the engine to breath.

      my question is this : if we could provide the proper info' on where to place each water inj. with its proper jet size in relation to the system demands would allow us to ditch the A2A/A2W IC ?
      save us the weight of intercooler housing to a water-tank for water inj. system !

      Pre/Post turbo water injection cooling system is capability to pull this off ?

      * i know this has been discussed alot but clear pro's2con's pointers will sum it up.

      42 Draft Designs

      UB the the first to cross the line

      hope u gave those pictures a second go
      Last edited by ModsTTand; 03-23-2012 at 03:33 AM.
      Reading>posting .

    4. 03-23-2012 06:55 AM #4
      Lookin good brotha

    5. Member ttwsm's Avatar
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      03-23-2012 06:55 AM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post

      We have been going through design ideas in the 1.8t technical forums
      The Vortex 1.8T technical forums? Cannot find - am probably being dumb with my searches - who started the thread/threads in question? I would love to hear peoples ideas on this.

      At the risk of throwing something out there that has already been covered in the other thread(s), it worries me to have the nozzle so close to, and pointed at, the turbo inlet. It is definitely not good to have any droplets strike a spinning turbo. If anything goes wrong and you do not have complete evaporation before entry, it's trouble. I know at our plants at work that have MVR evaporators, we go to great lengths to prevent any mist from reaching the fans. The technology unfortunately doesn't apply at all to this application.

      Droplets striking the blades of the fan will cause premature wear, and do it surprisingly quickly. This is never uniform, so the fan becomes unbalanced and then the vibration kills it. I wonder if swiveling the nozzle orientation 180 degrees, to discharge into the oncoming air from the same location, would give you some extra safety margin.

      Again, please provide a link to the discussion thread(s) on the 1.8T technical forum!

      EDIT: Found it.
      Last edited by ttwsm; 03-23-2012 at 07:12 AM.

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      03-23-2012 08:30 AM #6
      First, have you considered rotating the throttle body so that the throttle flap faces the back of the plenum (opposite the runners)? This would help combat the starving of cyl #4. Second, that hump in the middle of the intake mani plenum is nasty, I don't remember that being that bad on the passenger side throttle manifold. Are you still interested in the SEM manifold? Also, posted in that 3.2 aux rad thread, but should have gone here, I thought you were going with no heat exchanger? Lastly, you said adiabatic, isothermal, and chemistry. Those are thermodynamics terms. Go Marcusmaximillian Go!

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      03-23-2012 09:06 AM #7
      i think TTWSM brings up a good point. this is something the Miss Geico Turbine Extreme boat has to deal with. Obviously there are some differences between the k04 and the 2-T55 turbines, but went water reaches the blades it destroys them in no time flat. Obviously it may not be immediate failure or close to like the boat but I would agree that over time you might begin to notice some symptoms.

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      03-23-2012 10:22 AM #8
      how much water can you pump in there?
      4 nozzles in the intake manifold and another in the turbo intake?

      i would never inject into the turbo intake.
      you will really shorten the turbo life.

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      03-23-2012 10:34 AM #9
      Agreed, straight meth into the turbo inlet would be better for turbo life.

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      03-23-2012 10:43 AM #10
      With injector streams perpendicular the main cross-flow, won't the spray pattern be distorted by the velocity of the cross-flow? IE, #4 injector pattern may well be hitting the wall between runner #4 and #3, or even being diverted into #3 almost entirely.

      I see #4 nozzle appears to point a little upstream of the #4 runner, so maybe you have thought of this already. Would seem to be a hard thing to get right without visualizing it on a flow bench, and even then it would be right for only a range of flow rates.

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      03-23-2012 10:56 AM #11
      Like this!


    12. 03-23-2012 10:58 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by ModsTTand View Post
      Salute

      1- Intake manifold :

      Amazing idea four "inj-to-runner" method is direct approach,my question:

      What's ur average MAP-MAF-AFR/water-in-air saturation? in a sense of with the amount of Pre-watered-pressurized-air entering the chamber of the manifold with 4 tiny inj's misting !?

      *Airflow in relation with the direction of four water inj.'s with air entering the runners drawing!
      *idea :Venturi-runners
      Saturation, I'm honestly not sure! In the manifold, I'm injecting with 4 custom 30cc/min that's 0.5 gal/Hr per nozzle for a total of 120cc/min or 2 gal/Hr which is nothing. When you consider that my fuel injectors are 630cc/ min (386cc/min is stock) and that people use 5 gal/hour single nozzle in the same displacement engine, you realize that it can't be bad (relative).

      As far as the ventury idea, it's would theoretically work great but very hard to implement on the factory manifold due to the odd runner shape.


      Quote Originally Posted by ModsTTand View Post

      2- Heat exhange :

      I'm putting together AWIC system and considering the exact same idea for cylinder-like cooler replacing our oem intercoolerpipe support arm keeping the OEM+ look & proving some room for the engine to breath.

      my question is this : if we could provide the proper info' on where to place each water inj. with its proper jet size in relation to the system demands would allow us to ditch the A2A/A2W IC ?
      save us the weight of intercooler housing to a water-tank for water inj. system !

      Pre/Post turbo water injection cooling system is capability to pull this off ?
      I can provide recommendations to where to place nozzles and volume required to reach specific gains. However, relying on water injection only would bring many problems that would make it impractical on a car that sees any kind of street duty.

      1) You would need to carry a lot of fluid to supply the engine in extended use.

      2) you would run poorly when not injecting (low load, part throttle, and shifting would see extremely high IAT).

      3) Even with it's efficiency reduced by pre-turbo injection, an intercooler still accounts for a big percentage of overall charge cooling. You would have to spray a lot of volume to make up for it and that's when you run into air saturation.

      In conclusion, IMO a percentage of the charge cooling would need to come intercooling of some sort to make it practical and efficient ( I'd say 20-30% ).

    13. 03-23-2012 11:39 AM #13
      Great to see all the inputs and feedback. I haven't seen a good discussion on this board with all of you "old timers" involved in a long time !


      Pre-turbo injection seems to be the subject of debate and prove to be somewhat controversial. I would lay my plan and attack some of the concerns.

      First of all pre-turbo injection has been done successfully many times before, it also has failed in many attempts because of the following:

      1) improper jet selection for the pump pressure. Not having near instant atomization is a sure way of creating long term blade erosion.

      2) not enough pump pressure

      3) improper nozzle position ( especially with the constraints of an enclosed intake track ).

      My plan

      -High pressure, I am starting with 250 psi just to test and plan to upgrade shortly to an 800 psi pump.

      -Custom made fine nozzle without the extra wide cone spray. I specifically wanted something small ( smaller than the typical 1 gal/Hr nozzle ) but that does not spray too wide.

      -Spray 1-3" away from the blade to avoid fluid pooling on the TIP walls and being vacuumed down by the turbo.

      My custom made 35cc nozzles with narrow cone spray that I had to wait 7 weeks for






      What to avoid





      A couple ways to do it right ( with the right pressure and nozzle sizes ) besides what Adam posted





      Last edited by Marcus_Aurelius; 03-26-2012 at 01:20 PM.

    14. 03-23-2012 11:43 AM #14
      This awesome video shows what's going on with pre- turbo injection and why injecting right at the turbo's mouths important


      http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F51xymg33-w

    15. 03-23-2012 11:57 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by zak2006 View Post
      i think TTWSM brings up a good point. this is something the Miss Geico Turbine Extreme boat has to deal with. Obviously there are some differences between the k04 and the 2-T55 turbines, but went water reaches the blades it destroys them in no time flat. Obviously it may not be immediate failure or close to like the boat but I would agree that over time you might begin to notice some symptoms.
      I understand the concern but there are steps that can be taken to minimize this to the point of becoming negligible. I have had direct correspondence with someone that did pre-turbo injection with a setup that was not even as methodical as what I'm attempting. In the long run (3 years) he did see minimal signs of erosion but after a compressor side rebuilt he interestingly did not measure any horsepower improvement on the dyno. In other words, minimal blade erosion does not have as much bearing on performance as commonly assumed.

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      03-23-2012 11:57 AM #16
      chrome isn't liking mobile link, have title I can search?

      i guess i stand corrected, didn't think about it on this level. Never heard of it before hence my reference to the Miss Geico boat but that is just salt water hitting blades not atomized. a quick search brought up atomization for humidifiers and those were talking about 1000-1200psi. will 800psi do it? (i havent the slightest clue)

    17. Member Doooglasss's Avatar
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      03-23-2012 11:59 AM #17
      Looks like I need to bring you those injectors back!

      You gonna be around this weekend?
      -Doug

    18. 03-23-2012 12:10 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by 20v master View Post
      First, have you considered rotating the throttle body so that the throttle flap faces the back of the plenum (opposite the runners)? This would help combat the starving of cyl #4. Second, that hump in the middle of the intake mani plenum is nasty, I don't remember that being that bad on the passenger side throttle manifold. Are you still interested in the SEM manifold? Also, posted in that 3.2 aux rad thread, but should have gone here, I thought you were going with no heat exchanger? Lastly, you said adiabatic, isothermal, and chemistry. Those are thermodynamics terms. Go Marcusmaximillian Go!
      I have tested with all 4 TB positions with no real effect logged back to back. I can always switch it back! Yes the manifold hump is nasty (not as nasty as the restricted tapered entrance of the passenger facing one ). I'm still interested in the SEM but want to iron out the setup before jumping (real reason is using my own money without the accountant/wife lecturing me to death)

      Sorry for the typo, fixed for you

    19. 03-23-2012 12:48 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_M View Post
      With injector streams perpendicular the main cross-flow, won't the spray pattern be distorted by the velocity of the cross-flow? IE, #4 injector pattern may well be hitting the wall between runner #4 and #3, or even being diverted into #3 almost entirely.

      I see #4 nozzle appears to point a little upstream of the #4 runner, so maybe you have thought of this already. Would seem to be a hard thing to get right without visualizing it on a flow bench, and even then it would be right for only a range of flow rates.
      Good eyes Charlie!

      Actually you are right (mainly because we have force induction) the vacuum effect from the cylinder into the runner is way less than the pressure coming from the turbo whenever there is significant throttle angle. What happens is water filled air charge ( say injected at the TB spacer that is now just riding along ) has a hard time making the turn and wants to keep going straight towards the closed end of the plenum. Normally what happens without direct porting is that the first cylinder starve for water/alcohol and each cyl after that gets more juice. With the nozzles placed where I have them, they are still under enough pressure to not get distorted before entering the runners ( it usually takes 4-5 inches to start seeing distortion when injecting with pressure ).

      You are right also by saying that modeling flow would be ideal but it would need to be the same water filled medium to have an accurate simulation of what's going on. From experience playing with this before, pre-TB water-filled charge always indicated that cyl #1 was starving because it would constantly have the highest knock count and timing correction. After direct porting only for the problematic cylinder in a similar fashion that I have now for all four (same location just one nozzle dedicated to the first cyl), the once problematic cylinder became the cylinder with the highest knock threshold. This past experiment is what lead me to full direct porting

    20. 03-23-2012 01:00 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by zak2006 View Post
      chrome isn't liking mobile link, have title I can search?

      i guess i stand corrected, didn't think about it on this level. Never heard of it before hence my reference to the Miss Geico boat but that is just salt water hitting blades not atomized. a quick search brought up atomization for humidifiers and those were talking about 1000-1200psi. will 800psi do it? (i havent the slightest clue)
      I know that 250 psi unrestricted would definitely do it. People have been injecting pre-turbo at only boost pressure. The reason for going to 800 psi is because I like to overthink and overbuild stuff for safety. Another thing to keep in mind is that at 1000+ psi, you have to start rethinking the system as the conventional push fitting on synflex lines won't cut it anymore with their bust limits.

      I will turn my computer on shortly to link the video to you (with iPads and smart phones I rarely find the use for these thing anymore )

    21. 03-23-2012 01:13 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by speed51133! View Post
      how much water can you pump in there?
      4 nozzles in the intake manifold and another in the turbo intake?

      i would never inject into the turbo intake.
      you will really shorten the turbo life.
      Remember there are different size nozzles

      You could keep the same overall target volume by using as many small nozzles as you want with much better results in terms of distribution and atomization (with all else equal).

      You say that you'd never inject pre-turbo because it would significantly reduce turbo life. To me it's sounds like the same box thinking that told me not too long ago that "boosting past 30 psi won't make more power and will kill the stock turbo in a hurry". Close to 3 years later, 320+ whp/400+ wtq and the status quo is still wrong. I'll take my chances in a methodical fashion and if the turbo can only last a racing season before needing a rebuild, it's all worth it to me

    22. Moderator PLAYED TT's Avatar
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      03-23-2012 01:29 PM #22
      I'll be watching this one. Lots of very interesting discussion

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      03-23-2012 02:08 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      What happens is water filled air charge ( say injected at the TB spacer that is now just riding along ) has a hard time making the turn and wants to keep going straight towards the closed end of the plenum.
      Ah, OK. When you wrote "problematic first cylinder runner", I read it as a problem in cylinder #1, and you meant it as a problem with "first cylinder encountered by the flow". Thanks for the explanation.

      Have you thought of a piezoelectric atomizing nozzle for your pre-turbo injector? You could do away with the high pressure pump. I think piezo is not the first choice for atomizing, compared to the simplicity of using compressed air to do the atomizing, but in your case you don't have compressed air available.

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      03-23-2012 02:12 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_M View Post
      but in your case you don't have compressed air available.
      The 30 psi that turbo is making won't do the job?

    25. 03-23-2012 02:14 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by 20v master View Post
      Agreed, straight meth into the turbo inlet would be better for turbo life.
      Better for blade life and lowering air temperature before it's even compressed mainly due to its lower flash point. But remember, I'm looking for that wet compression to extend compression efficiency and my compressor map


      Quote Originally Posted by DougLoBue View Post
      Looks like I need to bring you those injectors back!

      You gonna be around this weekend?
      No rush, I still have the rest of the piping to fab and pre-turbo nozzle holder to take care off!

      Will be around over the weekend !

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      03-23-2012 02:26 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      Better for blade life and lowering air temperature before it's even compressed mainly due to its lower flash point. But remember, I'm looking for that wet compression to extend compression efficiency and my compressor map

      Yeah, I read a little more about it after I posted that and realized you're extending comp. efficiency as the goal. This should work on a K03 as well. I was amazed at how tough my original one was on my GTI. Chipped at 14K miles, MBC it's whole life spiking to 24-25psi, holding 14psi to 7K+, with just a Greddy FMIC. While running open inlet, it ate a Greddy EBC solenoid harness, and sounded funny after that. It had a much different weird whistle from the bent fins. Still boosted fine, and I ran a 13.22@104mph with the turbo like that at 116K miles on it.

    27. 03-23-2012 02:48 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by 20v master View Post
      I was amazed at how tough my original one was on my GTI. Chipped at 14K miles, MBC it's whole life spiking to 24-25psi, holding 14psi to 7K+, with just a Greddy FMIC. While running open inlet, it ate a Greddy EBC solenoid harness, and sounded funny after that. It had a much different weird whistle from the bent fins. Still boosted fine, and I ran a 13.22@104mph with the turbo like that at 116K miles on it.
      Same findings here! The big brother K04-02X is a lot tougher than most gives it credit for. Mine has been boosting 30+ psi for 2.5 racing seasons and there is no out-of-specs shaft play or oil burning. I wish the Mitsubishi turbos I abused in the same fashion handled it that well. I am going to give it a break now by doing this project because the workload will be a lot less. First by removing all the 6-8 dynamic pressure loss I recorded when I had two boost gauges installed, I can ask the turbo to spin/compress less to make the same pressure. Secondly I can increase compression efficiency and gain power from the energy that was wasted from adiabatic loss.

    28. 03-23-2012 06:39 PM #28
      Ooo by the way you have a PM!!

    29. 03-25-2012 04:44 PM #29
      Always pushing the envelope! Love it buddy! Kick some ass this year.

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      03-26-2012 12:54 PM #30
      I might have to give this a shot...Looks good

      I'm a firm believer in cooler temps...

    31. 03-26-2012 01:50 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by spartiati View Post
      Always pushing the envelope! Love it buddy! Kick some ass this year.
      Thanks partner, see you and your beast at the track soon!



      Quote Originally Posted by coachvtt View Post
      I might have to give this a shot...Looks good

      I'm a firm believer in cooler temps...
      Do it! I got all the leg work done so you'll have plenty of tech support!

    32. 03-26-2012 02:24 PM #32
      Max may I ask why you went with the nozzle pointing at the runner as opposed to the nozzle placed underneath the manifold closer to the opening of the actual runner? I would think as the air is getting funneled into the runners it'll just pick up whatever comes out of the nozzle and go right in....

      Also on a side note. I'm dabbling with the pre turbo injection idea. Do you think it would pose any issues from 20-30 minutes straight on the road course.
      Last edited by spartiati; 03-26-2012 at 03:01 PM.

    33. Member RabbitGTDguy's Avatar
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      03-26-2012 07:44 PM #33
      Very interested in seeing how all this turns out man! Looks great! All about the details

      Joe

    34. 03-26-2012 08:10 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by spartiati View Post
      Max may I ask why you went with the nozzle pointing at the runner as opposed to the nozzle placed underneath the manifold closer to the opening of the actual runner? I would think as the air is getting funneled into the runners it'll just pick up whatever comes out of the nozzle and go right in ...
      I have it this way for a couple of reasons but the main one being that anywhere else has the nozzles too close to a wall (which would inevitably result in water pooling on the wall facing the nozzle).

      Another good spot would have been in the runners at a steep angle (injector like) but I wouldn't risk compromising fuel atomization by having water jets right behind the injectors!


      Quote Originally Posted by spartiati View Post
      Also on a side note. I'm dabbling with the pre turbo injection idea. Do you think it would pose any issues from 20-30 minutes straight on the road course.
      As long as you have properly sized and positioned nozzles, I don't see why it would pose any problem. The rally cars use straight port H20 injection just like mine and run in extreme conditions for extended time (think 45-50 psi on OEM turbos rated at 19 psi with a restrictor plate, anti-lag and running at maximum timing for full hour+ long sessions. The small privateer teams only do turbo refresh once per season). So it can work for a long time if done properly!

    35. Member RabbitGTDguy's Avatar
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      03-26-2012 08:37 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      As long as you have properly sized and positioned nozzles, I don't see why it would pose any problem. The rally cars use straight port H20 injection just like mine and run in extreme conditions for extended time (think 45-50 psi on OEM turbos rated at 19 psi with a restrictor plate, anti-lag and running at maximum timing for full hour+ long sessions. The small privateer teams only do turbo refresh once per season). So it can work for a long time if done properly!
      This is quite amazing and has my attention for refinements to my system as well. We kicked this around and talked about it last year when I was setting mine up as well..

      Makes me want to step that one nozzle up.

      I can also say that I ran a AWIC setup on the last mTDI rabbit I had. Utilized the VR5 aux radiator and it worked quite nicely for the exchanger setup. Very sweet.

      Had a old HAMM's brewing aluminum mini- keg for my res. in the trunk as well. Pretty sweet looking...still have it if you wanted to use it in your setup! Here were a few pics...






      Joe
      Last edited by RabbitGTDguy; 03-26-2012 at 08:42 PM.

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