Pistol-Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

[emmettlodge]

Most notably including, but not limited to the Kel-Tec Sub-2000 and the ridiculously inexpensive Hi-Point 9mm/40/45.

Just found out about these, and want to know more. What are they like?

[GrkPranksta69]

Most notably including, but not limited to the Kel-Tec Sub-2000 and the ridiculously inexpensive Hi-Point 9mm/40/45.

Just found out about these, and want to know more. What are they like?

Sound like they're a lot of fun. Don't forget the Beretta Cx4 Storm. PS; does anyone know how this work to those whom are under 21 since it uses pistol ammo?

[emmettlodge]

Sound like they're a lot of fun. Don't forget the Beretta Cx4 Storm. PS; does anyone know how this work to those whom are under 21 since it uses pistol ammo?

My lumited understanding is that these still qualify as rifles despite the ammo type.

[Señor Peligro]

The Kel-Tec is probably the best middle-of-the-road option between the cheap Hi-Point and pricier Beretta. It's really an awesome little rifle, very light, very maneuverable, and shoots very well (w/ 9mm at least, haven't shot a .40SW example). Lots of fun. Being collapsible is nice for storage as well. FWIW though, using aluminum/steel cased ammo is not recommended for it, and it doesn't keep the bolt open on the last round.

That said, you get what you pay for with the Beretta...great ergonomics, has a crisp trigger, plenty of mounting options (clever little pop-out mounts near the muzzle), and it feels nice & substantial. It's also very accurate, and stays remarkably clean (9mm versions). Bolt stays open after the last shot, and the bolt can be swapped left or right.

Can't go wrong either way. I find the CX4 to be a more of a substantial, useful, complete package for what it offers, but for bang-for-the-buck and magazine options, the Kel-Tec is hard to beat. Hell, you could probably get 2 Sub-2ks for the price of 1 CX4.

No clue about the Hi-Point. Also, another option in between the Sub 2K and CX4 in price is the older Marlin Camp 9 Carbine, which is a more traditional rifle w/ a wood stock & whatnot. They also made one in .45ACP (Camp 45). Nice guns as well, kinda like an upsized model 795.

[Beltfed]

If you're left handed, pass on the Kel-Tec.

[personman]

One nice thing about the Kel Tec - they offer different versions that take either Glock, S&W, Beretta, or Sig magazines.

[foxtrot762]

One issue with the Kel-Tec is that if you're a left handed shooter, like me, you inadvertently drop the magazine when you fire the weapon. The mag release is on the left side right where your hand rests when gripping the weapon so as you squeeze the trigger, the pressure from your hand drops the mag.

[Beltfed]

One issue with the Kel-Tec is that if you're a left handed shooter, like me, you inadvertently drop the magazine when you fire the weapon. The mag release is on the left side right where your hand rests when gripping the weapon so as you squeeze the trigger, the pressure from your hand drops the mag.

The biggest issue being is the gun is straight blow back and throws unburnt powder/and or other debris in the left hand shooter's face.

[TurboWraith]

The only thing I don't like about the Beretta is the price. For the cost of one (new) you could easily buy yourself an Arsenal 5.45 AK and enjoy shooting real rifle ammo on the cheap.

Seems silly to buy a pistol caliber carbine for that much money, unless you have a full sized rifle already and just want one.

[foxtrot762]

The biggest issue being is the gun is straight blow back and throws unburnt powder/and or other debris in the left hand shooter's face.

Yep... that too. I want to like the gun...compact, easy to use, 9mm, lightweight. I just can't look past the few major things that make it all but unusable for a lefty.

[Elbows]

Here is my issue with PCC's.

Take a real submachinegun. The definition of an SMG is essentially a select-fire "rifle" firing a pistol caliber round. They generally have short barrels for compactness and maneuvering inside structures, vehicles etc. Firing select-fire, they generally are very low-recoil and accurate because of the cartridge size.



Enter the civilian PCC. These start out in 16" length (or longer), and semi-auto. Removing the two key components of a proper SMG. Now, without select fire, or a short barrel, you have a firearm which is basically the same legal size (and in some cases, cost) of an actual rifle.

With very little arguing, rifle cartridges are more powerful, lethal than handgun cartridges. Perhaps you still have the "advantage" of a lower powered cartridge, and light recoil. Unfortunately pistol caliber ammunition is as expensive, if not more expensive than rifle cartridges (normally).

Some PCC's like the KelTec do offer some ingenious benefits, such as being able to fold in half easily. The first firearm I encountered in the field in the Patrol was that exact PCC. It was folded and stuffed under the driver's seat of a smuggler's truck.

The other questionable advantage is the ability to share magazines. This is where I think the PCC does serve some kind of role. Particularly if you're a guy who CCW's or carries a Glock. Lots of people like to carry a trunk gun. A firearm capable of doling out a bit more punishment if needed in an emergency. Now if you're rolling with a Glock in your belt, why not have a PCC in the trunk that takes similar Glock magazines. Stash a couple of happy-sticks in the trunk and rock and roll when needed.

9mm is a very popular caliber, and would be pretty easy to find if the world ever fell apart. So, if you had a "long arm" and handgun which both were fed by the same ammo, you'd be one step-ahead. However, beyond 100 yards, I'd not want to trust any handgun round over a competent rifle round.

I'm a bit torn on the idea, unless I felt like really SBR'ing one.

[foxtrot762]

However, beyond 100 yards, I'd not want to trust any handgun round over a competent rifle round.

I agree with this but how often do you really see yourself shooting it out with someone over 100 yards? Heck...over 20 yards?

[Elbows]

I only mention this, because a lot of folks out there have a PCC as their primary long-arm, and treat it like a rifle...which it is not. I wholeheartedly agree with the limited range engagement. I only ever plan 200 yards and in, but within those 100-200 yards, I'd definitely want my rifle vs. a PCC. BUT...I will say, given a circumstance, a reliable PCC would be better than a handgun in a shootin' fight.

Pocket Pistol
Pistol
PCC
Rifle
Battle Rifle
LMG

In that pecking order.

[speaker]

This one might be the grandpappy of the PCC, the Wilkinson Linda carbine. My cousin had several in the 70's and kept them stowed on his yacht (along with a couple shotguns and a high-powered rifle). I thought the Wilkinson's were the coolest thing ever.

[Power5]

[QUOTE=Elbows;76581869

9mm is a very popular caliber, and would be pretty easy to find if the world ever fell apart. So, if you had a "long arm" and handgun which both were fed by the same ammo, you'd be one step-ahead. [/QUOTE]

I hear this all the time but I am starting to not believe the hype. Not directed at you, many people say the same. Just this past weekend I was at 3 walmarts in my city and 9mm was the most scare. Much more true rifle caliber on the shelf than 9mm.

[emmettlodge]

Here is my issue with PCC's.

Take a real submachinegun. The definition of an SMG is essentially a select-fire "rifle" firing a pistol caliber round. They generally have short barrels for compactness and maneuvering inside structures, vehicles etc. Firing select-fire, they generally are very low-recoil and accurate because of the cartridge size.



Enter the civilian PCC. These start out in 16" length (or longer), and semi-auto. Removing the two key components of a proper SMG. Now, without select fire, or a short barrel, you have a firearm which is basically the same legal size (and in some cases, cost) of an actual rifle.

With very little arguing, rifle cartridges are more powerful, lethal than handgun cartridges. Perhaps you still have the "advantage" of a lower powered cartridge, and light recoil. Unfortunately pistol caliber ammunition is as expensive, if not more expensive than rifle cartridges (normally).

Some PCC's like the KelTec do offer some ingenious benefits, such as being able to fold in half easily. The first firearm I encountered in the field in the Patrol was that exact PCC. It was folded and stuffed under the driver's seat of a smuggler's truck.

The other questionable advantage is the ability to share magazines. This is where I think the PCC does serve some kind of role. Particularly if you're a guy who CCW's or carries a Glock. Lots of people like to carry a trunk gun. A firearm capable of doling out a bit more punishment if needed in an emergency. Now if you're rolling with a Glock in your belt, why not have a PCC in the trunk that takes similar Glock magazines. Stash a couple of happy-sticks in the trunk and rock and roll when needed.

9mm is a very popular caliber, and would be pretty easy to find if the world ever fell apart. So, if you had a "long arm" and handgun which both were fed by the same ammo, you'd be one step-ahead. However, beyond 100 yards, I'd not want to trust any handgun round over a competent rifle round.

I'm a bit torn on the idea, unless I felt like really SBR'ing one.

That's a great post and basically made up my mind for me.

Do I want a PCC just to have one? Sure.

Do I really need one for any particular purpose? No.

Are there other firearms I should buy to try first? Yeah.

[DonL]

I'm disappointed that reasonably priced standard-looking carbines are so damn scarce on the market. The Hi-Points and Kel-Tecs, IMO are too spacey looking for me, the same with the Beretta.

I'd like to see carbines like the older Ruger Police Carbine back on the market. They were more reasonable looking than some of the current designs that look like they came off the set of a sci-fi movie. That's JMHO, of course, but I'm a Luddite that way sometimes.

[speaker]

I'm disappointed that reasonably priced standard-looking carbines are so damn scarce on the market. The Hi-Points and Kel-Tecs, IMO are too spacey looking for me, the same with the Beretta.

I'd like to see carbines like the older Ruger Police Carbine back on the market. They were more reasonable looking than some of the current designs that look like they came off the set of a sci-fi movie. That's JMHO, of course, but I'm a Luddite that way sometimes.

Marlin Camp Carbine -

[Elbows]

I hear this all the time but I am starting to not believe the hype. Not directed at you, many people say the same. Just this past weekend I was at 3 walmarts in my city and 9mm was the most scare. Much more true rifle caliber on the shelf than 9mm.

I agree, but I really meant you'll stumble on 9mm on dead bodies and in peoples houses more... The stores will be empty within 24 hours of a major disaster.

[DonL]

speaker, I know what you mean, but all the non-spacey carbines that you find on the market are on the secondary market. I can't remember the last time something like that was available NIB from an actual store. It's been over a decade since Marlin was making their camp carbines, and Ruger stopped production of their carbines five or six years ago.

Looks like Gunbroker, my state gun owner's classifieds board, or a few gun shows need some trolling...

[speaker]

Looks like Gunbroker, my state gun owner's classifieds board, or a few gun shows need some trolling...

DonL, you know that's where the best deals are too!

[foxtrot762]

Is it Obin that has the fully (integrated) suppressed Camp 9? That thing is sweeeet!

Edit: yep, it's Obin
here it is