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    VWVortex


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    Thread: '87 CIS-E no start.

    1. 03-26-2012 03:34 PM #1
      Background: all parts and wiring came from an '86 8V converted to 16V, wrecked it still running then stripped it, found a non running 86 8V in Florida and converted it using all parts and wiring from previous Scirocco, I replaced the Dizzy with a brand new one replaced the timing belt, wires, plugs, cap, and rotor.

      symptons: I've got power to and spark coming out of the coil, but just a faint spark out of the plug wires. I've got fuel and compression. all my timing marks on Dead on. I've tried using other spare components i.e. Knock Control unit, ICU, ECU, and knock wire.... I've even tried a spare Engine Harness......

    2. 03-28-2012 11:50 AM #2
      Just ordered a new ICU.... Let's hope that does it.

    3. 03-29-2012 08:08 PM #3
      New ICU and still nothing I've tested every test I could test in the Bently Manual, and when Testing ICU I have same results. Where do I test for continuity for the signal wire? What am I missing if all connections are good?

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      03-30-2012 02:53 PM #4
      Strong spark out the coil? From then on, if you're getting spark at the wires, it's a problem with cap/rotor/plugs. Unless your engine/tranny is poorly grounded.
      I really suck at smog.

    5. 03-31-2012 03:48 PM #5
      Thanx Ziddey, I have Brand new NGK wires and plugs, new dizzy cap and rotor... My 5 year old told me to check the connections in his own words and I had a feeling it might be something simple like a poor ground. I'll give them all a good inspection.... Here's the thing though, in the rain cowl on left side where all the electricals are there is a quarter sized rust hole where the fuse panel's bracket was welded, but I had a VW tech check it out for me and he said the grounds beside the fuse panel are ok. I wonder though... Still I'll be giving them all a thorough inspection. Thanx again for your reply. I'll give you a status update in a few hours

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      04-01-2012 08:18 AM #6
      It’s not exactly clear so I have to assume all things are “Scirocco” and not mixing say Golf and Scirocco parts or something like that, right? Then there is the infamous “Dizzy” word. In some cases one can tell if it was an ignition distributor or a fuel distributor, but in this case I am guessing ignition, correct? If you are talking about a fuel distributor then we have to discuss setting and checking the rest and basic positions of the air sensor plate.

      “.... Here’s the thing though, in the rain cowl on left side where all the electricals are there is a quarter sized rust hole where the fuse panel’s bracket was welded, but I had a VW tech check it out for me and he said the grounds beside the fuse panel are ok. I wonder though...”

      I too have to wonder, but not about the grounds located nearby but the entire relay panel and its internal wiring. It was a common problem with A1 models when the windshield started to leak water on the panel that the car would begin to do crazy things. Did you swap over relay panels from one car to the other or just plug into the maybe water damaged one in the car you purchased?

      Sorry for being a skeptic, but I always have these mental image problems when things are stated without any data to follow. Like “I’ve got fuel” or “I’ve got good compression”. It always leaves open questions like how was it checked, what were the results and so on which can help determin a problem. But for now the question about the relay panel is important seeing as water has been running down into that area.

    7. 04-01-2012 04:15 PM #7
      all electricals were stripped from current shell and replaced with complete wiring from running Scirocco that was totaled but still running.... as for tests, all that are withiin the Bently Manual, I smell fuel, fuel pump runs, no proper compression test though, I can hand turn it and it feel strong.... i dunno..

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      05-05-2012 06:13 AM #8
      Since you replaced your electrical system, have you checked all of your grounds to the block that they are 1) connected and 2) connections are clean and paint/grease free?

      Not trying to say you dont know what your doing, but once when I put a motor back in I forgot to put a block ground back on and I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't start!

    9. 06-24-2012 09:01 AM #9
      WaterWheels, I did replace the fuse panel.

      I just bought Bosch Cap and Rotor.... Still, no spark....

      I know Bently has a listing of ground connections in the Manual, but could somebody lay it out in a more simplified way as to where all the grounds are?

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      06-24-2012 12:47 PM #10
      I think ground worries or many other issues will only fog things up right now. What has to be done I think is your basic troubleshooting procedures for an engine which does not start. You stated in the begining that you have power to the coil. Is that 12v and at the plus terminal (+)(15)? You said you have spark at the coil, I assume the coil wire was where the testing was done, but weak spark at the plugs. Did you test at every plug? Did you do the testing using the plugs from that cylinder? Have you chacked and checked again that the firing order is set correctly? Have you checked that the ignition distributor is installed so that the spark is directed to the propper cylinder? It is easy to have spark but if it goes to the right plug at the wrong tome the engine may not even spit out a backfire.

      This goes for the fuel too. Did you check at each injector or just crack open a line some place and call it a day? What is the fuel pressure like? CIS injectore require about 30-35psi to pop open so testing "fuel pressure" is important. Even low compression is not a "no start" problem so I don't understant people always testing it, but there are things which will cause the engine not to start which should be covered in a repair manual.

    11. 06-25-2012 09:09 PM #11
      had a big response to each and every question of yours, WaterWheels. I'm gonna start from square on and report back in a few days or more, I've got the second child unit's first birthday coming up, so lots of other busy work ahead for me. I wanna thank you also for your help and response. much appreciated.

    12. 06-27-2012 09:45 PM #12
      WaterWheels, thanks again for your help and patience.
      12 volts at coil- terminal 15
      I checked spark at wire end only, not at plug end
      I've triple checked my firing order via Bently and ALLDATA Pro. I still have the older Blue Ignitors wire set, NGK wires are new and installed. I even have an MSD Ognition coil waiting for installation. Now, this motor has some extra lumpy cams and when the original owner rebuilt it, he had to open the slot ends of the distributor to allow for proper adjustment(clockwise). The original dizzy from that rebuild has been misplaced over the many van loads back and forth from PA to FL. So I dunno if there was something magical about that dizzy, or what.... I did perform signal and voltage tests on the new one via Bently and came up with adequate results....I even notched the slots for adjustment allowance.
      Engine is in complete time and on TDC- I've recently replaced the Timing belt....

      As for a full on fuel test, I haven't the proper tools, yet. Soon...
      I'm not worried about that until I get some spark. Sounds naive, I know, but I hear the fuel pump and it is a fairly brand new unit.

      I did think of something to ask in the meantime.....
      Will the coolant temprature sensor tell it not to spark if there is no coolant in the system? I haven't filled it yet, cause I wanna flush the system with running water when it finally starts....

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      06-28-2012 06:47 AM #13
      Was that at “every” wire end or only at one? It is possible for plugs to become fouled and not spark, but we’ll leave that issue alone for now until we determine that you are in fact getting current to each and every cylinder.

      “. . . when the original owner rebuilt it, he had to open the slot ends of the distributor to allow for proper adjustment(clockwise).” “....I even notched the slots for adjustment allowance.” You will have to expand on these two statements as I have little or no clue as to exactly what you mean. No engine is going to need some kind of magical ignition distributor to run. It will require one which is made to work with the ignition system installed on the engine, but if this is a CIS-e fuel system it should have a knock sensor ignition unless things were changed. That only requires a distributor with a four window Hall setup in side and a fixed advance (that means no mechanical or vacuum advanced).

      Unless we discover some true no spark situation that would cause a no start, the next logical thing to look into would be your fuel delivery. Something as simple as shooting a little starter fluid into the intake and trying to start the engine could tell a lot. If the engine starts for a second or sputters, which it so far has not, then you are looking at a fuel issue and not a spark problem. If there is no change then spark would still be on the table for possible problems. If you did check at each plug wire end and did have at least some form of spark at each then except for the ignition timing being off (firing at the correct cylinder at the correct time), spark should not really be the issue

      “Will the coolant temprature sensor tell it not to spark if there is no coolant in the system?” No.

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