Technical Data and Modifications for Hardcore Enthusiasts

[webcrawlr]

So after spending all morning reading through this thread...time for a question on your newest upgrade.

What are the advantages to the HALDEX Comp controller vs using the 3x Program controller?

It's cheaper. HPA has said the comp controller is basically the same as race mod on the 3 way.

[smd3]

The comp controller keeps the Haldex engaged under deceleration and braking.

[Rebellionelite]

The comp controller keeps the Haldex engaged under deceleration and braking.

Bingo!

However, during acceleration the Race and Competition are identical.

[watsonj0]

The comp controller keeps the Haldex engaged under deceleration and braking.

This makes a big difference in the way the car handles.

[TyrolSport]

Good Morning Everyone,

I didn't have time to write a full report yesterday. The only modification I added was the Haldex Competition controller to the car. If you are tracking your car, and have reached a level where the car is understeering under power, this modification could be the solution. The only reason I say could is because I need to test it on a tighter track to understand what it will do in 3rd gear. Watkings Glen is all 4-6.

Having said that, WOW what a difference! The car is much more neutral, and I can go full throttle MUCH sooner. Tremendous levels of grip, and even better tire wear, as the rears are doing much more work.

Here is the most interesting thing about it all for me as it relates to the ESP. I would have thought that the addition of the controller would have increased ESP intervention as the rear would have more power going to it. The opposite happened. I could not get ESP to intervene in places where previously it was cutting throttle. So that made me question;

Does ESP try to prevent the car from understeering in addition to preventing it from oversteering? This would explain its' intervention in power-on understeer situations. Maybe TechEd has the answer.

In either case, I am extremely happy. The car was a ton of fun, and I didn't feel like I was on a leash any more. My next track event should be in November at NJMP which should give us some more data about how the Haldex controller affects track driving.

[TyrolSport]

What was the GoPro mounted to?

I have an ECS tuning mount

[TyrolSport]

Why all the brake dust on the rear wheels? Just rotate the tires? Stock brake pads in the rear still?

No idea. Hawk HPS in the rear, Pagid RS19 up front.

[a4tq]

Does ESP try to prevent the car from understeering in addition to preventing it from oversteering? This would explain its' intervention in power-on understeer situations. Maybe TechEd has the answer.

I'm pretty confident the answer is yes - the yaw angle, throttle and steering angle are inputs to ESC. Understeer or oversteer events are both potential loss of control.

I've experienced intervention during autox on low grip surfaces where I missed my apex and was pushing thru a turn with excessive steering input and throttle application

[MasterNele03]

Here is the most interesting thing about it all for me as it relates to the ESP. I would have thought that the addition of the controller would have increased ESP intervention as the rear would have more power going to it. The opposite happened. I could not get ESP to intervene in places where previously it was cutting throttle. So that made me question;

Does ESP try to prevent the car from understeering in addition to preventing it from oversteering? This would explain its' intervention in power-on understeer situations. Maybe TechEd has the answer.

I'm glad you tired the controller it really does change the car. As far as your ESP comment I'm pretty sure it does try to do both. Of course TechEd will now better than I, but this was the case with all the .:R's even the MKIV (ESP on though). The MKIV is a little different (less intrusive even with it on and a different method) than the MKV & MKVI, but it was still trying to limit understeer or oversteer. With the MKVI instead of applying power to whichever wheel it instead applies the brakes to whichever wheel. The was my basis of recommending the controller however many pages back. Now the ESP should intervene less b/c the controller is now allowing the drive to do they work and having to compensate by slowing whichever wheel down. Not sure if this makes sense or if it seems like it's redundant, but in a nutshell instead of having the computer "control the car" your forcing the controller to remain active and the ESP really shouldn't intervene b/c it doesn't think that car is in any sort of danger. Still glad you like it and I'm curious if it'll let you get on it on some tight turns that you have to power through to get out.

[flieger]

So then, what I've gathered is at if I'm not going to track my car every weekend I might be better off going with the 3-way controller? Seeing as it has basically a stock setting, sport and race settings which would allow me to have fun during the week and then take it for auto-x or track days and take full advantage of the benefits of the controller.

[ToeBall]

Does ESP try to prevent the car from understeering in addition to preventing it from oversteering? This would explain its' intervention in power-on understeer situations. Maybe TechEd has the answer.

It does. I've got it recalibrated on both my VW's to allow moderate amounts of wheel spin and about the only time it kicks on for me now is if the car is understeering and I try to add too much power to pull out of it or if I try to feed in power on an inertial drift if the angle gets to be more than a bit. Accelerating from a tight apex causes the light to flash in warning but not so much that power gets pulled.

[ecirwin]

It does. I've got it recalibrated on both my VW's to allow moderate amounts of wheel spin and about the only time it kicks on for me now is if the car is understeering and I try to add too much power to pull out of it or if I try to feed in power on an inertial drift if the angle gets to be more than a bit. Accelerating from a tight apex causes the light to flash in warning but not so much that power gets pulled.

How do you recalibrate it?

[50akaferrari]

How do you recalibrate it?

yeah

[TyrolSport]

Spring rate testing has begun!

First round matchup, Stock vs. H&R Street Coilovers! Let's get ready to ruuuuuuuuuumble!

Procedure –
Installed the spring in the rate tester.
Depress spring 1” to account for install height and reset weight to zero.
Depress spring to 1” and record reading
Depress spring to 2” and record reading
Depress spring to 3” and record reading






Rates:
Stock Front:
1” 195 lb
2” 390 lb
3” 575 lb

H&R front:
1” 178
2” 345
3” 510

Stock Rear:
1” 265 lb
2” 530
3” 815

H&R rear:
1” 150
2” 320
3” 540

[XSSIVE]

Hey my springs are famous.

Mike and the guys at TyrolSport installed the H&R street coilovers on my R yesterday.

Also to clarify since there are two sets of H&R street coilovers (along with several other H&R options) for the R these are model #29014-12

I'm no suspension guru but I do know that the car drives amazing similar to stock yet the spring rates are lower despite the lowering? I thought the rates tend to go up on lowering springs? Or does the dampening stiffness go up and the rate go down to balance out the feel of the ride?

Whatever the case I'm loving the ride and stance of the R now...thanks Mike!!

[webcrawlr]

Rates:
Stock Front:
1” 195 lb
2” 390 lb
3” 575 lb

H&R front:
1” 178
2” 345
3” 510

Stock Rear:
1” 265 lb
2” 530
3” 815

H&R rear:
1” 150
2” 320
3” 540

Mike, are those two door stock springs or four door? They have different part numbers and rates apparently.

Wow those rear H&R rates are really low compared to stock. That combined with the additional drop would have me worried about riding on, using, or overusing, the bump stops among other things.

[Rdurty2]

I can't believe how low the spring rates are for the H&R springs. If in the market for springs I definitely would not want the H&R's.

[XSSIVE]

They're stock 2 door springs.

I'm driving on these in NY and hit some crazy bumps and dips and crap on the way home from Mike's shop and never once did I bottom out the whole car, hit the bump stops, rub in the wheel wells or bounce around at all. The ride is quite similar to stock. Firm but not jarring and not bouncy at all. I've had MANY lowered cars over the years some were great (337 on KW V1, 2000 Civic Si on Tanabe coilovers) and some drive like bouncy crap (Camaro SS on Eibach springs). This is certainly one of the better feeling setups of all my 9 cars I've owned.

[gman86]

Just signed up, and subscribed to this thread!

Looking forward to test data regarding the downpipes and VWR intake. My old Mk6 GTI felt smoother with a panel filter than the ITG Maxogen kit, so would be keen to see exactly how much benefit a full intake on the R will be.

[jsausley]

Will you be testing the Neuspeed springs by chance?

[TyrolSport]

Will you be testing the Neuspeed springs by chance?

I can only test what comes into my hands. I will happily test any springs or coilovers that are shipped to me for free. :

[mcgyver7923]

No idea. Hawk HPS in the rear, Pagid RS19 up front.

Any fade with that set up? Would you say you are threshold braking consistently? Do they squeal on the street?

I am currently running Carbotech XP20 on the front and CP10 on the rear and I use a different set of OE rotors on the front for the track days. I then go back to stock pads and the other rotors after track days but it is a lot of work to be switching all the time.

[watsonj0]

How do you recalibrate it?

THIS!!!!!

[mcgyver7923]

Alright guys, Ground Control Camber Plates at -2 degrees on both fronts and an H&R rear sway bar on the stiff setting. Understeer, GREATLY REDUCED!!! I still have no haldex controller FYI. They guys at HS Tuning also took measurements of the tire temps at inner, middle, and outside edges and we were able to make informed changes to pressure which HELPED IMMENSELY!!! Now, ESP has become a problem. In the right hand long sweeper the ESP is coming in with my foot completely off the brake and gas as I am turning in and scrubbing speed. It must be sensing the delta in wheel speed from inner to outer wheel, I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm very happy with the handling of the car now and I was really able to improve lap times and enjoyment with the suspension changes. Going from stage 1 to stage 2+ (K&N drop in only and downpipe only) plus the rear sway and camber I was able to drop more than 3 seconds off of my lap times. When your already doing 1:21:40 and drop to 1:18:08 it's a HUGE improvement!!!

Vids on my channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/tekyguy?feature=mhee

Fastest Lap Chasing my friends 350hp Dinan M3:



Please check out the other vids and feel free to comment!

[mcgyver7923]

BTW, Mike, how much MPG do you gain with the HALDEX Controller on ECO? This alone might make me get it :-) I plan to have this car for a while (5 years plus) and it should pay me back and them some possibly.

Thanks!!

[Fahrvergnuugen]

BTW, Mike, how much MPG do you gain with the HALDEX Controller on ECO? This alone might make me get it :-) I plan to have this car for a while (5 years plus) and it should pay me back and them some possibly.

Thanks!!

x2 and subscribed.

[webcrawlr]

BTW, Mike, how much MPG do you gain with the HALDEX Controller on ECO? This alone might make me get it :-) I plan to have this car for a while (5 years plus) and it should pay me back and them some possibly.

Thanks!!

He has the comp controller which is a single program setup.

I lost about 1.5mpg over stock with my comp controller. Being that the stock controller already sends the majority of torque to the front wheels at cruising I don't see the Eco program saving you more than what I lost. If that was the case it would take 8 years at current gas prices to recoup the cost if driving 15k a year.

[TyrolSport]

Any fade with that set up? Would you say you are threshold braking consistently? Do they squeal on the street?.

Zero fade at Watkins Glen which is very hard on brakes. I am into the ABS on occasion if that is what you are asking. The squeal like mad on the street, but stuff like that doesn't bother me. I just drove my newborn daughter home from the hospital with the car *exactly* the same way it was when at the track.

[TyrolSport]

Please check out the other vids and feel free to comment!

Good stuff mcgyver! Keep it up! Can you get more than -2 out of the camber plates?

I ended up at 32F 35R at my last track event on the Michelin PSS. What pressures are you running with your slicks?

Adding the Haldex controller is going to speed you up further is the ESP is slowing you down.

[Rebellionelite]

Did you ever relocate the battery?

[TyrolSport]

Did you ever relocate the battery?

I did not. It is too expensive to do it using OEM components(over $1k). That $1k can be put to better use elsewhere(Seats or an LSD will be my next mod). I will just get a lightweight battery instead.

[mcgyver7923]

He has the comp controller which is a single program setup.

I lost about 1.5mpg over stock with my comp controller. Being that the stock controller already sends the majority of torque to the front wheels at cruising I don't see the Eco program saving you more than what I lost. If that was the case it would take 8 years at current gas prices to recoup the cost if driving 15k a year.

I know a guy with an AUDI TT-RS and he said he jumped from 26mpg to 30mpg or more on eco mode.

[mcgyver7923]

Good stuff mcgyver! Keep it up! Can you get more than -2 out of the camber plates?

I ended up at 32F 35R at my last track event on the Michelin PSS. What pressures are you running with your slicks?

Adding the Haldex controller is going to speed you up further is the ESP is slowing you down.

I am running 255/45/17 Nitto NT-01 R COMPS and start at 28PSI in the rears, 32 in the front left and 30 in the front right. Are you saying that with the HALDEX controller, ESP intervention lessens?

Nope, I can't get more than -2 out of the camber plates without cutting the strut towers and using competition plates. The -2 is a huge improvement though along with the H&R rear bar.

[mcgyver7923]

Mike, I see this now up in the thread:

"Here is the most interesting thing about it all for me as it relates to the ESP. I would have thought that the addition of the controller would have increased ESP intervention as the rear would have more power going to it. The opposite happened. I could not get ESP to intervene in places where previously it was cutting throttle."

So did you not get ANY ESP intervention or only reduced intervention? I am holding over 1G in 3 corners and under that kind of load these are the places ESP is coming on and mainly in corner ENTRY situations where I am trail braking or scrubbing speed with the tires.


Very Good stuff to know and really looking forward to hearing your feedback from a tighter course. The only course I have run at is Nelson Ledges so far and all corners are 4th gear as well except for one 3rd gear corner.

[TyrolSport]

mcgyver,

It sounds like your car has less power and more tire than my car, so your results sound right. With as much tire as you are running, you probably are not experiencing any power-on understeer. If and when that does happen, the Haldex controller will be your answer. I still get a quick light flash under heavy trail braking, but it is not slowing me down yet.

I should be at NJMP for a track event in November. NJMP is much tighter than WGI, so it will be the ultimate test of whether an LSD is needed at my current skill level and car setup.