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    Thread: Technical Data and Modifications for Hardcore Enthusiasts

    1. Junior Member
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      03-28-2012 10:31 AM #76
      Great thread, I noticed my steering wheel is a little off also, I'm going to have the dealer check it on the first service.

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      03-28-2012 12:01 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by Tyrol Mike View Post
      Last of easy kills on the front suspension and I am going home for the day.

      The front lower control arm bushings are as mushy as my moms tatas.

      Luckily the VW/Audi parts bin comes to the rescue again with some solid rubber units out of the Audi TT. These make a really nice difference in steering precision and solidity in the front end. While it looks plug and play, the aluminum brackets are different. In order to use the solid rubber bushing, it must be pressed out, and pressed into your existing housing(I will have a DIY for this later in thread). I have done a ton of mk5s and mk6s with great success(You have to use the Borat voice). The Golf R is no different. The bushing is not available without the aluminum housing, which makes the price more expensive. Oh well, still worth it.
      It appears Whiteline sells bushing replacements for that.I'm guessing it's cheaper then buying the OEM piece. I've used Whiteline products heavily on my old EVO and STI and loved them. No experience with them in the VW world though. Do you?

      EDIT: I see Toeball already said the same thing and you answered. Makes sense.
      Last edited by webcrawlr; 03-28-2012 at 12:12 PM.

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      03-28-2012 02:35 PM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by Calmwinds View Post
      your steering wheel was not aligned becuase of the crowning of the road...
      Yeah, if we lived in the UK! Take a look:


      If it were to compensate for road crowns, it would be canted slightly to the right, not to the left.

      --Chuck--

    4. Member .:R Driven's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 02:51 PM #79
      Just ran into this thread
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    5. Member ZPrime's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 03:24 PM #80
      Subscribed. This thread is awesome and I don't even have an Ewok.
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      03-28-2012 05:35 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by speedbump2 View Post
      Yeah, if we lived in the UK! Take a look:


      If it were to compensate for road crowns, it would be canted slightly to the right, not to the left.

      --Chuck--
      Road crown placement varies depending on the hydraulic needs and the type of roadway. It's very common to see crowns placed in between 2 lanes going in the same direction on 4 lane divided highways so they shed water in both directions. In that case the crowning could cause the car to drift left or right depending on the lane you are traveling in.

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      03-28-2012 05:53 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by Tyrol Mike View Post
      After the alignment, the steering wheel is now perfectly straight on all road surfaces.
      ok. we'll see when you drive on roads that are angled down to the left. I think it will show significant disalignment to the right this time.

    8. Member smd3's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 06:01 PM #83
      TEFF's using ttrs control arms, he might be able to provide some insight on using them on the R.

    9. Forum Sponsor TyrolSport's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 06:29 PM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by Calmwinds View Post
      ok. we'll see when you drive on roads that are angled down to the left. I think it will show significant disalignment to the right this time.
      I bought the car new. Driving the car in the center lane of three lane highway, the steering wheel was not straight. Driving in the left lane it was straighter but still off. Driving in the right lane, it was off more than driving in the center lane. What is your point exactly? That my car was correctly aligned even though the alignment machine and my steering wheel said otherwise?

    10. 03-29-2012 07:01 AM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by Tyrol Mike View Post
      I bought the car new. Driving the car in the center lane of three lane highway, the steering wheel was not straight. Driving in the left lane it was straighter but still off. Driving in the right lane, it was off more than driving in the center lane. What is your point exactly? That my car was correctly aligned even though the alignment machine and my steering wheel said otherwise?
      I can definitely see that my driver rear has more negative camber than the passenger side. I'd love to put it up on a rack and get it checked but I have V3's waiting for install so I'll spend the money and get it balanced once those are on.

      Maybe we have Friday cars....

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      03-29-2012 10:06 AM #86
      Local dealer just quoted me about $1200 in parts to do a complete OEM battery relocated using Mk5 R32 parts. Oof. I think I will hold off for now, as the money could be better spent elsewhere. It is still on the list, but much less of a priority. New hardware for the Aluminum front suspension components should be here by the weekend. I will do a DIY on the installation, as well as weigh the various components to see the savings.
      Last edited by TyrolSport; 03-29-2012 at 12:06 PM.

    12. Banned BetaOp9's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 10:09 AM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by Tyrol Mike View Post
      Local dealer just quoted me about $1200 in parts to do a complete OEM battery relocated using Mk5 R32 parts. Oof. I think I will hold off for now, as the money could be better spend elsewhere. It is still on the list, but much less of a priority. New hardware for the Aluminum front suspension components should be here by the weekend. I will do a DIY on the installation, as well as weigh the various components to see the savings.
      As I understand it the brakes on the MKVI R are the same as the MKV R32. In the land of weight savings, Racing Brake has two piece lightweight rotors for the MKV shaving ~9lbs each front corner in both rotating mass and unsprung weight. Worth considering and ~5lbs in each rear corner. Assuming compatibility.
      Last edited by BetaOp9; 03-29-2012 at 10:15 AM.

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      03-29-2012 10:16 AM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by BetaOp9 View Post
      As I understand it the brakes on the MKVI R are the same as the MKV R32. In the land of weight savings, Racing Brake has two piece lightweight rotors for the MKV shaving ~9lbs each front corner in both rotating mass and unsprung weight. Worth considering and ~5lbs in each rear corner. Assuming compatibility.
      The rotors appear to be identical, the calipers are definitely different.

    14. 03-29-2012 11:23 AM #89
      Seriously appreciate your effort in documenting all of this for us.

    15. Member Siliconrane's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 11:44 AM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by Tyrol Mike View Post
      The rotors appear to be identical, the calipers are definitely different.
      I have not seen these calipers on anything else yet . . . Any ideas on where they are sourced? TT? TTRS?
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      03-29-2012 11:56 AM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by Tyrol Mike View Post
      The rotors appear to be identical, the calipers are definitely different.
      Any details on these differences?

    17. Member vwtechr32's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 12:03 PM #92
      Been wrapping my mind around this for the past couple days and can wait for the solid side by side numbers on these parts. The un-sprung weight loss potential here is HUGE w/ a moderate 17" wheel the control arms and spindles I'm guessing 20+ lbs.? On each corner? Just WOW this will just completely change the whole handling dynamic of this car in a positive way, it's already a very solid set-up then to move the battery, which not only reduces nose weight and better balances the weight but will also slightly lower the center of gravity all good good things. Combine all of this w/ more POWA which we have all been well aware of and it's gonna be a true sleeper.

      Wheel -10 lbs
      Spindle -5 to 8 lbs?
      Arm -3 to 5 lbs?

      I just can't weight to see what you end up with here Mike great work knowing you you've gotta be a bit giddy in side realizing the potentials here.

    18. Member nkgneto's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 12:38 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by BetaOp9 View Post
      As I understand it the brakes on the MKVI R are the same as the MKV R32. In the land of weight savings, Racing Brake has two piece lightweight rotors for the MKV shaving ~9lbs each front corner in both rotating mass and unsprung weight. Worth considering and ~5lbs in each rear corner. Assuming compatibility.
      Quote Originally Posted by Tyrol Mike View Post
      The rotors appear to be identical, the calipers are definitely different.
      I'd like to see the differences in the calipers. Is it the mounting point different spindle as the MKV or the type of caliper being used? I know RB is working on a 4 pot caliper that will fit over the OEM rotors or their Two-Piece rotors. Still in R&D a few weeks away as far as I know.

    19. Member autofi's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 01:07 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by Siliconrane View Post
      I have not seen these calipers on anything else yet . . . Any ideas on where they are sourced? TT? TTRS?
      These calipers are the same as '08 Passat without the paint scheme!Same rotors also.

    20. Member red72914's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 01:07 PM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by Tyrol Mike View Post
      Local dealer just quoted me about $1200 in parts to do a complete OEM battery relocated using Mk5 R32 parts. Oof. I think I will hold off for now, as the money could be better spent elsewhere. It is still on the list, but much less of a priority. New hardware for the Aluminum front suspension components should be here by the weekend. I will do a DIY on the installation, as well as weigh the various components to see the savings.
      Mike,
      Do you have an OEM parts list for this? I'd like to talk to my local dealer and see how much he can source these for.
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    21. Member Ryan E.'s Avatar
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      03-29-2012 01:15 PM #96
      Great thread, I remember your posts in the 1.8T forum when I got my MKIV GTI in 03.

      Looking forward to your subframe mod, I just took the plunge and got some Rigid Collar's to try out at a reduced price.
      http://www.rigidcollar.com/what-is-rigid-collar

      Do you think you might develop something like this or is your solution different?

      Quote Originally Posted by Tyrol Mike View Post
      There probably is, but I am working on a mod that will keep the subframe locked in place. If you are familiar with the Mk5 subframe clunking issue, you will understand that the Mk6 will have the same issue as the car ages. I will address that in future posts.
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      03-29-2012 01:34 PM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by Tyrol Mike View Post
      Guten Morgen everyone,

      I got in early today just to play with some of the TT front suspension components I had lying around. Lots o’ juicy goodness here.

      First up, B6 Passat and TT control arms side by side. Look exactly the same(TT on right)…….


      Let’s look closer though(TT always on right):




      The TT arm is much beefier. Cartman likes beef. BEEFCAKE!

      There are also some significant geometry differences. The TT inner bushing is further outboard compared to the Passat:



      Our hopes for using the TT arm instead of the Passat arm are crushed when we realize the central balljoint hole is in a different location.



      On top of that, the balljoint on the TT is completely different:





      I am doing my best this morning to figure out how to adapt the TT arm to our cars. Why? Because:



      The whole point of this exercise? We REALLY want to be able to use the TT spindle, because it will lower our roll center, and allow us to run less static ride height with a better camber curve.



      I will get into the details of this later, but search username “pyce” for a great writeup regarding the use of TT drop spindles on the front of Mk4 chassis VWs. The same rules apply here. The Mk4 R32 used Mk1 TT spindles from the factory. If we are able to adapt the TT stuff seen here, the handling improvements will be huge.

      -Mike

      Mike, message TEFF for some details, it seems like he knows the exact details of getting the TT LCA + balljoint in the car, he mentioned it was a direct swap, when i once asked if its possible to "RS" the R.

      please confirm with him as i can be mistaken.

    23. Forum Sponsor TyrolSport's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 01:38 PM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by chramiji View Post
      Mike, message TEFF for some details, it seems like he knows the exact details of getting the TT LCA + balljoint in the car, he mentioned it was a direct swap, when i once asked if its possible to "RS" the R.

      please confirm with him as i can be mistaken.
      Thank you for the heads up. I have already confirmed fitment here in the shop.

      I'm just waiting on some new subframe hardware and disassembly will begin. Should start on Monday. More to come.

    24. Member TechEd's Avatar
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      03-29-2012 03:38 PM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by Tyrol Mike View Post

      The whole point of this exercise? We REALLY want to be able to use the TT spindle, because it will lower our roll center, and allow us to run less static ride height with a better camber curve.
      ...the TT “hard parts” raise the kinematic instant centers and roll center. This mod is relatively well known and is already covered in various places on the web. I posted an explanation of the dynamics involved here.

      The notion that this mod allows one to run lower static ride heights (presumably via shorter springs) is wrong. The higher front kinematic instant centers and front roll center adapted by Audi on the VWAG PQ36 platform fulfilled their goal to locate the CG and RC as close as possible to one another in the basic PQ36 kinematic geometry ...in order to reduce the front roll moments that the springs need to resist. In a front view geometry scenario, installing a shorter spring simply moves the lowered TT ball joints upward relative to the control arm pivot, thereby lowering the ICs and the result here is that RC migrates away from the CG ...essentially turning the TT geometry into GTI geometry. As well all know, if you want to run a shorter spring on the font, an appropriate (higher) rate needed to resist increased kinematic front roll moments causes tire loads to be saturated more abruptly, and this makes for a very unforgiving chassis for newbies. And along with this, there’s always the decrease in steering precision due to increased bump steer to consider as well. Hence, the static height of the TT remains within the specification allowed by the PQ36 engineering release (essentially identical to Euro R and GTI) but they rely on the dynamic effect of higher IC & RC to reduce roll moments and they can get away with a slightly softer wheel rates as a result. In order to get the full benefit as the Audi boffins intended, use a spring that maintains the static height within the engineering release.

      Another thing to consider is that the ABS system roll & yaw measurement and steering angle input profiles for the ESC programs are different between the R and TT. The ESC on the R could very well be compromised when out-of scope input processing is attempted.

      While the efforts in this thread are indeed commendable, I would hope that “hardcore enthusiasts”, i.e.: those who regularly participate in HPDE and autocross events, make a conscious effort to not be like “regular enthusiasts” that assume this modification results in cumulative, ultimate benefits in an overall sense. Once again, I urge everyone to think about the ROI in a context that is specific to one’s personal circumstances (daily driver bragging rights vs. actual benefit with sticky tires for regular track use with a skilled driver) and systemic thinking to identify the pros and cons involved. Specifically, come to realize how the higher front roll center on the TT was applied along with effective front and rear wheel rates and chassis frequencies based on the wider platform, shorter wheelbase, corner weights and roll couple distribution of the TT. While these comparative effects can argued to be minimal between the R and TT, the most important dynamic effects that cannot be minimized are that applying higher front instant centers increases lateral tire scrub in tire bump displacements, and higher the roll center increases jacking forces ...which on the TT are dealt with up to a point by using summer performance tires no narrower than a 245 section width.

      Point is, doing the expensive TT control arm /hub mod on an otherwise stock car that still uses the stock springs and bars, and especially the stock 225-section all-season tires ...is, well... nothing that a hardcore enthusiast should accept in terms of the best possible ROI. Keeping the stock springs, A good EPS or R-Comp tire in a 235 or better still, 245 section width would be an absolute necessity to get he most out of this modification for track use ....the increased lateral scrub and jacking forces alone on an a/s 225-section tire driving up to their tractive limits would be a deal breaker for me.
      Last edited by TechEd; 03-29-2012 at 03:41 PM.
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      03-29-2012 03:47 PM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by TechEd View Post
      Point is, doing the expensive TT control arm /hub mod on an otherwise stock car that still uses the stock springs and bars, and especially the stock 225-section all-season tires ...is, well... nothing that a hardcore enthusiast should accept in terms of the best possible ROI. Keeping the stock springs, A good EPS or R-Comp tire in a 235 or better still, 245 section width would be an absolute necessity to get he most out of this modification for track use ....the increased lateral scrub and jacking forces alone on an a/s 225-section tire driving up to their tractive limits would be a deal breaker for me.
      Excellent post, Ed. I agree with everything you said. That's why I'm going with the Passat spindles and TT lower adjustable arms first. Get some lap times, try different wheel/tire sizes, and different spring/swaybar combinations before moving on to the TT stuff which will require a lot more modification. The stock tires should never see the track unless you are a beginner(which many in this forum may be). Cheers!


      -Mike

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