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    Thread: Is anyone talking about health care using basic logic?

    1. Senior Member FlashRedGLS1.8T's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 02:05 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by Air-over-water View Post
      Easy, kill 150 million people.
      Look, now we have more jobs and a smaller number of people to support.
      Just the white people maybe.




    2. Banned nokturnal's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 02:06 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      Why not? It works for our 30 million people who are, demographically speaking, basically the same as yours. What about the system wouldn't scale up?
      These 'systems' don't scale linearly. Your simplistic take on it isn't fair.

    3. Member XiaoNio's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 02:27 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by FigureFive View Post
      Single payer/public option is the only way to adequately provide comprehensive health care to everyone.
      This. As well as a fundamental paradigm shift in how we look at health care. One of my big peeves about being in the military is that we have a lot of social conservatives who think universalized health care is a bad idea. Yet at the same time, we are beneficiaries of a managed care system ourselves that works pretty darn well most of the time.

      The thing about medical insurance now is it reimburses based on procedures and not necessarily outcomes. There's little drive to reward good behaviors, just payment for catastrophic events. There's no incentive to pay for preventative rehabilitation at the cost of a few hundred per session over the course of months when you could have a $50,000 orthopedic operation when everything goes wrong.

      I'd argue it's not that doctors are paid too much, it's that some doctors are paid too little. Your run of the mill general practitioners may not even be making 6 figures yet they are the ones with the greatest influence on the most health outcomes. As an MD, why work like dog and be paid little when you could be a dermatologist and be reimbursed for every mole you excise.

      Rewinding... the only way health costs can be controlled are by removing commercial interest in health care, encouraging preventative behavior, increasing incentives for primary care and reducing accessibility to tertiary care. Or basically a whole bunch of impossible stuff.

    4. 03-28-2012 02:39 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by XiaoNio View Post
      This. As well as a fundamental paradigm shift in how we look at health care. One of my big peeves about being in the military is that we have a lot of social conservatives who think universalized health care is a bad idea. Yet at the same time, we are beneficiaries of a managed care system ourselves that works pretty darn well most of the time.
      Members of the military are an entirely different thing than people in general. I agree that the only solution is a similiar system but it's going to work far easier in the military than in general.

      The thing about medical insurance now is it reimburses based on procedures and not necessarily outcomes. There's little drive to reward good behaviors, just payment for catastrophic events. There's no incentive to pay for preventative rehabilitation at the cost of a few hundred per session over the course of months when you could have a $50,000 orthopedic operation when everything goes wrong.
      Which is something NEITHER party has any desire to address.

      Rewinding... the only way health costs can be controlled are by removing commercial interest in health care, encouraging preventative behavior, increasing incentives for primary care and reducing accessibility to tertiary care. Or basically a whole bunch of impossible stuff.
      Pretty darn close.

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      03-28-2012 03:02 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by zaYG View Post


      People give you a lot of **** on here but sometimes you post gold.
      Unfortunately without doing what I posted, nothing will EVER get fixed (that includes Healthcare).



      But that would certainly be my first step if I was in power. Of course you would find me dead in the back alley shortly after announcement.

      Last edited by VdubChaos; 03-28-2012 at 03:11 PM.

    6. Member ElixXxeR's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 03:11 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by XiaoNio View Post
      Rewinding... the only way health costs can be controlled are by removing commercial interest in health care, encouraging preventative behavior, increasing incentives for primary care and reducing accessibility to tertiary care. Or basically a whole bunch of impossible stuff.
      On a macro scale, preventative care costs more, not less.

    7. 03-28-2012 03:18 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by ElixXxeR View Post
      On a macro scale, preventative care costs more, not less.
      Preventative behavior ≠ Preventative care.

      However, I'm curious to see any studies that preventative care costs more than treating an issue after the fact. I've honestly never heard that before.

    8. Senior Member A.Wilder's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 03:21 PM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      The sign of defeat.
      just like "Do either of you have anything to useful to say?"
      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      If Jesus is your pilot, then irony is your vehicle.

    9. Senior Member A.Wilder's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 03:23 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by Doedrums View Post
      Why don't you rebut what he said instead of making jabs? Just because someone has what you consider extremist views doesn't mean they should be excluded from the debate. If he is wrong, prove it and his point will be dismissed. Anything else is intellectually dishonest.
      except when you explain why his poorly thought out ideas are poorly thought out he whines that "you don't have anything useful to say"
      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      If Jesus is your pilot, then irony is your vehicle.

    10. Member XiaoNio's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 03:23 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by ElixXxeR View Post
      On a macro scale, preventative care costs more, not less.
      I mean that's a yes and no. It's certainly cheaper to let someone get really sick and die of a generally non-cureable illness. But you have to consider things like productivity, morbidity and the types of care used.

    11. Member 20DYNAMITE07's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 03:23 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by A.Wilder View Post
      just like "Do either of you have anything to useful to say?"
      He still hasn't responded to the fact that those people in servitude are actually employed and being compensated for their work.
      "We'll not risk another frontal assault... that rabbit's DYNAMITE!"

    12. Senior Member A.Wilder's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 03:27 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by 20DYNAMITE07 View Post
      He still hasn't responded to the fact that those people in servitude are actually employed and being compensated for their work.
      The privileged-angry-white-male email chain with talking points on that topic hasn't been distributed yet.
      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      If Jesus is your pilot, then irony is your vehicle.

    13. Member pentaxshooter's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 03:29 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by 20DYNAMITE07 View Post
      For which the provider is being compensated. People are not being shanghai'd and forced into medical school, construction, or enviornmental engineering against their will. This is not servitude. It is employment. A voluntary choice of vocation by the parties involved.

      Or do you believe all employment to be servitude?
      Did you hear that noise? It was the sound of the poiny i was making going right over your head.

      Re-read what I said and in the context it was written, please

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    14. 03-28-2012 03:39 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Did you hear that noise? It was the sound of the poiny i was making going right over your head.

      Re-read what I said and in the context it was written, please

      Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2 Beta
      Must have been the sound of the point making sense to you and no one else.

      Try rephrasing and get back to us.

    15. Member GroovOn-SLC's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 03:42 PM #115
      This Obamacare isn't really about healthcare. It is designed to set the precident that the federal government can force you to buy something. On that basis alone, it is unconstitutional and I pray is struck down.

      Ask yourself this: What's next? Forced to buy an electric car?

      Don't think it can happen in 'Merika? Think again. People give up liberty every day for perceived security.

      Obama doesn't give a rats' patoot about your health or anyone else's. 2000 exemptions for his croonies and counting.
      Last edited by GroovOn-SLC; 03-28-2012 at 03:49 PM.

    16. Member ElixXxeR's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 03:42 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by joness0154 View Post
      Preventative behavior ≠ Preventative care.
      How would you characterize "preventative behavior" in the context of healthcare, which is what this thread concerns? It should be encouraged, sure, but I don't think that is the issue at hand here.

      Quote Originally Posted by joness0154 View Post
      However, I'm curious to see any studies that preventative care costs more than treating an issue after the fact. I've honestly never heard that before.
      I read this a few weeks ago, but I don't have links to the specific sources referenced:

      http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...e-saves-money/

    17. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 03:48 PM #117
      I honestly don't care if they throw the mandate out, I lean well-Left and even I dislike the mandate.

      If the SC strike anything from the ACA (and I don't know that they will) I bet they keep in "the good stuff" (breastfeeding protections, coverage even if pre-existing conditions, coverage for young adults up to age 26 on parents' plans, protections against Insurance companies dropping you when you get sick) even if it means pieces like the mandate get stricken.

      I'm a Progressive, I wanted a single-payer, basic healthcare for all system like every other 1st world country has. Don't tell me we can't do it because there are too many people in the US. Figure it out, and make it happen.

      I don't mind paying more taxes if it means basic healthcare for everyone ala Canada. Same as I don't mind my taxes paying for schools, fire, police, roads, etc. All for one and one for all.

      I do mind a mandate that forces me to send money to the Insurance Companies with the best lobbyists.

    18. Member 20DYNAMITE07's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 03:57 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Did you hear that noise? It was the sound of the poiny i was making going right over your head.

      Re-read what I said and in the context it was written, please

      Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2 Beta
      Don't be a wise arse with me, Pentax. I'm one of the few people that actually likes you around here.

      Your point was an excellent one, except it was predicated on the concept of servitude on behalf of those providing the good and services. I simply pointed out that people that provided those goods and services did not have their liberties infringed upon. They entered their professions by choice and are compensated for their work. As I said, if they had their own liberties infringed upon in order to meet a goal of "the public good" or their services were extracted involuntarily, then yes, your point would have been valid. But that does not apply, and as such your particular argument is moot.
      "We'll not risk another frontal assault... that rabbit's DYNAMITE!"

    19. Member pentaxshooter's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 04:11 PM #119
      I will clarify when I get home from class.

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    20. 03-28-2012 04:22 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I honestly don't care if they throw the mandate out, I lean well-Left and even I dislike the mandate.

      If the SC strike anything from the ACA (and I don't know that they will) I bet they keep in "the good stuff" (breastfeeding protections, coverage even if pre-existing conditions, coverage for young adults up to age 26 on parents' plans, protections against Insurance companies dropping you when you get sick) even if it means pieces like the mandate get stricken.

      I'm a Progressive, I wanted a single-payer, basic healthcare for all system like every other 1st world country has. Don't tell me we can't do it because there are too many people in the US. Figure it out, and make it happen.

      I don't mind paying more taxes if it means basic healthcare for everyone ala Canada. Same as I don't mind my taxes paying for schools, fire, police, roads, etc. All for one and one for all.

      I do mind a mandate that forces me to send money to the Insurance Companies with the best lobbyists.
      They won't. It's how the fools created the law in the first place. It's made so that one aspect can not stand without it all standing.

      This part has been settled long ago.

    21. Senior Member FlashRedGLS1.8T's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 04:24 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I don't mind paying more taxes if it means basic healthcare for everyone ala Canada. Same as I don't mind my taxes paying for schools, fire, police, roads, etc. All for one and one for all.

      I do mind a mandate that forces me to send money to the Insurance Companies with the best lobbyists.

    22. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      03-28-2012 04:37 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
      They won't. It's how the fools created the law in the first place. It's made so that one aspect can not stand without it all standing.

      This part has been settled long ago.
      If true, that would be a shame. Lot of young people who were just able to get back on their parent's family policy will be dumped again. Not to mention all the patient protections that are, in my opinion, the best, most necessary parts fo the bill.

    23. 03-28-2012 04:43 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      If true, that would be a shame. Lot of young people who were just able to get back on their parent's family policy will be dumped again. Not to mention all the patient protections that are, in my opinion, the best, most necessary parts fo the bill.
      I don't disagree with you. Why we continue to vote for fools is beyond me. They could have done this correctly but decided they would rather continue getting the large campaign contributions. (note, this is slamming both parties)

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      03-28-2012 04:51 PM #124
      it's dead. thank god. which means Obama will be a lame duck if he gets re-elected. his Presidency has been an utter failure.

      No thanks to Death Panels, a mandatory RFID chip implant, 1/6 take over of the economy by government....

      we've all seen the level of quality of government services - the DMV, IRS, etc.....they're all beauracracies, that never sustain themselves.

      You have a 2500 page law that NOBODY in government has read in its entirety "We have to pass it to see what's in it" -Pelosi-

      Does healthcare need some work? Yes. Is this the solution? Nope. I do not want anymore socialism.

      This is a President who has shunned and juked around the Constitution whenever he feels like it.

      It's pretty much a win for Conservatives no matter how you cut it - it probably is dead. If it survives it'll probably kill Obama's election b/c 60-70% of the country doesn't want it.

    25. 03-28-2012 04:56 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by Righteous Bucks View Post
      it's dead. thank god. which means Obama will be a lame duck if he gets re-elected. his Presidency has been an utter failure.

      No thanks to Death Panels, a mandatory RFID chip implant, 1/6 take over of the economy by government....
      Once I got to this point I realized you have no idea what you're talking about.



      Not to mention no one knows if it's dead or not yet. The justices asked very pointed questions, yet they've done that in many a case beforehand and ruled opposite to what the media thought.

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