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    Thread: Official 2012 Formula 1 UBS Chinese Grand Prix

    1. Moderator Oliver@triplezoom's Avatar
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      04-16-2012 10:41 PM #141
      Was out of town until late last night so I didn't get a chance to watch the race until now. A bit boring at the beginning, but wow, the last third or so had me on the edge of the couch.

      Definite props to Rosberg, that was a great drive by him. :thumb up:

      Happy to see Hamilton leading the championship. Would have been interesting to see how he would have done if he actually started on the front row.

      Kimi...damn. Doubt he was happy about that result after being in second.

    2. 04-17-2012 08:00 AM #142
      I suspect that had Lewis started on the front row, he would have resorted to his prior, tire thrashing ways trying to get around Nico and he would have dropped back. Just a hunch. Thinking out loud.

      Stan...

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      04-17-2012 10:37 AM #143
      I'm thinking score one for those that are trying to make F1 a better show. Pirelli, The group responsible for creating DRS, KERS, etc.,...
      It is not that easy to just build a lead and then drop back into a comfortable position as we've seen in China. The front runners all dropped back into a very busy and competitive midfield with whom they had to race and pass to get back to the front. Made for some exciting racing and i hope it stays that way. Very exciting to watch!
      Form is temporary; Class is permanent

    4. 04-17-2012 12:07 PM #144
      Amazing race. Loving the parity and lack of political infighting/drama thus far. Nico is making it hard for guys like Massa to justify their cheques.

    5. 04-17-2012 01:24 PM #145
      Quote Originally Posted by kfzmeister View Post
      I'm thinking score one for those that are trying to make F1 a better show. Pirelli, The group responsible for creating DRS, KERS, etc.,...
      It is not that easy to just build a lead and then drop back into a comfortable position as we've seen in China. The front runners all dropped back into a very busy and competitive midfield with whom they had to race and pass to get back to the front. Made for some exciting racing and i hope it stays that way. Very exciting to watch!
      WERD!

    6. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 02:28 PM #146
      Quote Originally Posted by kfzmeister View Post
      I'm thinking score one for those that are trying to make F1 a better show. Pirelli, The group responsible for creating DRS, KERS, etc.,...
      It is not that easy to just build a lead and then drop back into a comfortable position as we've seen in China. The front runners all dropped back into a very busy and competitive midfield with whom they had to race and pass to get back to the front. Made for some exciting racing and i hope it stays that way. Very exciting to watch!
      I'm still not a fan of DRS at all. I forget who it was, but there was some brilliant defensive driving to maintain his position throughout the first half of the lap, but when they got to the DRS-enabled straight, he was a sitting duck and it was game over. There's no reward for driving your ass off in a slower car when the quicker one can just annihilate them on the straight with DRS.

      I can see the argument for KERS, because at least both cars get an equal shot at it and you can use it anywhere you like, adjusting your strategy accordingly, but DRS with its set zones is just stupid. If they opened it up so DRS could be used anywhere like it is in qualifying, regardless of whether there's a car 1 second ahead or not, I'd happily change my opinion.

    7. Member Peloton25's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 03:02 PM #147
      That's the whole point of DRS though - when you're stuck behind another car that is slower than you it can still be tough to pass with the defending moves of another driver. DRS lets the faster driver make the pass and move on with their race. If they aren't really faster then surely it will only be a lap or two later that the passed driver can return the favor with a DRS move of their own.

      >8^)
      ER

    8. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 03:16 PM #148
      Quote Originally Posted by Peloton25 View Post
      That's the whole point of DRS though - when you're stuck behind another car that is slower than you it can still be tough to pass with the defending moves of another driver. DRS lets the faster driver make the pass and move on with their race. If they aren't really faster then surely it will only be a lap or two later that the passed driver can return the favor with a DRS move of their own.

      >8^)
      ER
      Part of racing is being able to defend; DRS effectively removes that ability. I'd gladly take fewer passes over artificial passes any day. If the car behind is truly quicker, they should be able to create an overtaking opportunity by way of KERS strategy and raw speed, not to just be given to pass when they get to the straight. It's not racing if you're reduced to being a sitting duck.

    9. Member Peloton25's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 03:28 PM #149
      But the cars today are too aerodynamically inefficient when running close behind another car. You get up behind another driver and lose front end downforce, the cool air to your brakes and your car just isn't as quick. We've seen it before where a driver will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 second or more a lap faster than the car he is chasing. Then they get up behind them and simply can't find a way past. I don't consider them artificial passes but I do agree with you that drivers should have more leeway on where the DRS can be used.

      >8^)
      ER

    10. Member Sump's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 03:32 PM #150
      Quote Originally Posted by Peloton25 View Post
      But the cars today are too aerodynamically inefficient when running close behind another car. You get up behind another driver and lose front end downforce, the cool air to your brakes and your car just isn't as quick. We've seen it before where a driver will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 second or more a lap faster than the car he is chasing. Then they get up behind them and simply can't find a way past. I don't consider them artificial passes but I do agree with you that drivers should have more leeway on where the DRS can be used.

      >8^)
      ER
      Which is quite a bit. Ferrari has stated they are .8sec a lap behind where they need to be and it seems like they are miles away.

    11. 04-17-2012 03:47 PM #151
      Quote Originally Posted by vdubjb View Post
      Nico is making it hard for guys like Massa to justify their cheques.
      Nico has historically scored more points than his teammate throughout his career in F1 (only Mark Webber scored more points than him in Nico's first season 7 points to 4).

      Around here they like to classify their drivers, either they are the teams #1 or they are support (I don't agree that every team does that though)...if we go by points scored each season then Nico is currently Mercedes #1 driver.

      Massa has never been the number one driver at Ferrari.

      At best he has been given equal opportunity to compete with his teammate until one or the other is mathematically eliminated from championship contention (2007 and 2008 season, partnered with Kimi Raikkonen)

      At worst he is relegated to the support role...(2006 with Schumacher, and currently with Alonso).

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      04-17-2012 03:51 PM #152
      Quote Originally Posted by Peloton25 View Post
      But the cars today are too aerodynamically inefficient when running close behind another car. You get up behind another driver and lose front end downforce, the cool air to your brakes and your car just isn't as quick. We've seen it before where a driver will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 second or more a lap faster than the car he is chasing. Then they get up behind them and simply can't find a way past. I don't consider them artificial passes but I do agree with you that drivers should have more leeway on where the DRS can be used.

      >8^)
      ER
      There was plenty of non-DRS passing going on in Shanghai by virtue of the tires and KERS, as there has been at many other races as well.

      If you can't find a way past, then maybe you don't deserve the position? It's one thing to be quick in clean air, it's another to actually have the balls to drive the car. Some of the greatest passes we've seen in the last few seasons have been made in places where there "shouldn't" be passes.

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      04-17-2012 04:14 PM #153
      Just because they have DRS doesn't mean all cars get a "free pass" on the straight. A car like the Ferrari is set up with much wing and as a result does not have the top speed, even with the DRS. Other cars were set up similarly. This is why Alonso had to find other places to try and pass, hence his off in turn 7 (think it was a Williams he was trying to pass).
      So while DRS was very helpful in overtaking for some, it provided virtually no help to others, even though they had faster lap times.
      Again, i think this added to the excitement of the whole show in China.
      Form is temporary; Class is permanent

    14. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 05:12 PM #154
      DRS stalls the rear wing; I don't believe it matters how much wing you're running while DRS is inactive as a result (if you can show me something to the contrary that'd be cool). Regardless, the advantage it gives the trailing car is undeniable, as is the point that the car in front is essentially defenceless against it, all else being equal.

      Unless DRS is enabled for the full run of the track at the drivers' will, it will always be a cheap and "unfair" gimmick to me.

    15. 04-17-2012 05:26 PM #155
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      DRS stalls the rear wing; I don't believe it matters how much wing you're running while DRS is inactive as a result (if you can show me something to the contrary that'd be cool). Regardless, the advantage it gives the trailing car is undeniable, as is the point that the car in front is essentially defenceless against it, all else being equal.

      Unless DRS is enabled for the full run of the track at the drivers' will, it will always be a cheap and "unfair" gimmick to me.
      Interesting... So with that said, when your "team" or the driver you're a fan of benefits from the DRS usage, do you consider it a gimmick as well?

    16. 04-17-2012 05:38 PM #156
      Quote Originally Posted by kfzmeister View Post
      Just because they have DRS doesn't mean all cars get a "free pass" on the straight. A car like the Ferrari is set up with much wing and as a result does not have the top speed, even with the DRS. Other cars were set up similarly. This is why Alonso had to find other places to try and pass, hence his off in turn 7 (think it was a Williams he was trying to pass).
      So while DRS was very helpful in overtaking for some, it provided virtually no help to others, even though they had faster lap times.
      Again, i think this added to the excitement of the whole show in China.
      This...

      I think we've all seen over and over that having the "fastest" car does not automatically promote one to the front of the grid. Had that been the default case, Sauber would win every race as their trap numbers have been ridiculous, while still placing out of the top 5.

      Kfz, I side with your thoughts here, far as easily as the DRS enables you forward, the big wing will take that presumed advantage away when you're not in the DRS zone.

      KERS, was too much of Champ Car's Push To Pass. Even if your car is slower, what is the use of passing a faster car cause you have boost, only to limit that cars advance and clog the track and make these races infinitely processional, especially when cars of off laps. That to me is a more tenuous, if not problematic IMHO....

    17. Member Blue2.0's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 06:22 PM #157
      For those of you who think passing with DRS is a "free pass" underestimate how hard it is to pass someone at close to 200mph mere inches away from another car going close to 200mph.

      DRS or not it isn't easy to pass. It's easier, but not easy.

      I, for one, enjoy DRS. Even with DRS, look at some of the blocking that went on. Who were the two cars that went all the way to the other side of the track? Vettel and Hamilton? Yeah...ask those two if that was easy.

      Also, if both cars were able to use it at the exact same time, regardless of position on the track, it would basically render itself moot. Might as well not have any DRS at all.
      Last edited by Blue2.0; 04-17-2012 at 06:25 PM.

    18. Member 24vEngineer's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 08:59 PM #158
      Quote Originally Posted by Kidstar View Post
      This...

      I think we've all seen over and over that having the "fastest" car does not automatically promote one to the front of the grid. Had that been the default case, Sauber would win every race as their trap numbers have been ridiculous, while still placing out of the top 5.

      Kfz, I side with your thoughts here, far as easily as the DRS enables you forward, the big wing will take that presumed advantage away when you're not in the DRS zone.

      KERS, was too much of Champ Car's Push To Pass. Even if your car is slower, what is the use of passing a faster car cause you have boost, only to limit that cars advance and clog the track and make these races infinitely processional, especially when cars of off laps. That to me is a more tenuous, if not problematic IMHO....
      Notice how Vettel couldn't pass anyone in the DRS zone during the race. His straight line speed was one of the lowest in the field.

      Please correct me somebody, but doesn't DRS only improve straight line speed by something like 7 mph?

      DRS helps but it doesn't guarantee a pass.

    19. Senior Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 10:27 PM #159
      Quote Originally Posted by 24vEngineer View Post
      Notice how Vettel couldn't pass anyone in the DRS zone during the race. His straight line speed was one of the lowest in the field.

      Please correct me somebody, but doesn't DRS only improve straight line speed by something like 7 mph?

      DRS helps but it doesn't guarantee a pass.
      I think that captures it pretty well. If you actually have a car capable of higher straight-line speed, DRS helps you overcome the effect of the dirty air, when you're the car behind. I think that's what DC meant by "classic DRS over-take" in reference to both Button's and Hamilton's passes on Vettel.

      And I think it's been pretty well established so far that the only top car* slower than the RB is the Ferrari. In fact, Ferrari is slower than Renault and Williams.

      * based on prior year's performance. I think the Renault is a top-level car now. It's only a matter of time before they get a pole and a podium.
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      04-17-2012 10:54 PM #160
      Quote Originally Posted by Blue2.0 View Post
      For those of you who think passing with DRS is a "free pass" underestimate how hard it is to pass someone at close to 200mph mere inches away from another car going close to 200mph.

      DRS or not it isn't easy to pass. It's easier, but not easy.

      I, for one, enjoy DRS. Even with DRS, look at some of the blocking that went on. Who were the two cars that went all the way to the other side of the track? Vettel and Hamilton? Yeah...ask those two if that was easy.

      Also, if both cars were able to use it at the exact same time, regardless of position on the track, it would basically render itself moot. Might as well not have any DRS at all.
      I never stated it was a "free pass", rather that it was an artificial way of allowing an overtake as it makes it a lot easier (again, all else being equal) to do so. Hell, my initial comment was regarding a fundamentally slower car defending against a quicker one; once they get to the DRS zone it's game over for the slow car.

      Enabling DRS to be open anywhere would still allow the "fast" cars and drivers to be fast, as they could use it more than those who don't feel comfortable/can't handle using it in the same areas; no different than in Qualifying.

      Quote Originally Posted by 24vEngineer View Post
      Notice how Vettel couldn't pass anyone in the DRS zone during the race. His straight line speed was one of the lowest in the field.

      Please correct me somebody, but doesn't DRS only improve straight line speed by something like 7 mph?

      DRS helps but it doesn't guarantee a pass.
      Yes DRS gives about 10kmh more (give or take given the base aero properties, power and gearing of the car in question), but 10kmh is nothing to sniff at when you're side by side going for the inside line to the upcoming corner, especially over a straight as long as China's or the uphill drag at Spa.



      That would have been a hell of a lot harder if Hamilton wasn't using DRS with a 10kmh speed differential. If you watch the actual video you can plainly see what an advantage "only" 10kmh more is over the length of a straight:



      The non-DRS comeback attempt by Vettel afterwards was far more exciting for me, not because it was Vettel, but because it was purely the cars and the drivers against each other in a square fight.

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      04-17-2012 11:24 PM #161
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post

      The non-DRS comeback attempt by Vettel afterwards was far more exciting for me, not because it was Vettel (), but because it was purely the cars and the drivers against each other in a square fight.
      That was it for Vettel. After the last turn Hamilton simply pulled away.
      Form is temporary; Class is permanent

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      04-17-2012 11:40 PM #162
      Somebody asked:
      Quote Originally Posted by Turun Sanomat
      ...only three grands prix in the history of the sport played host to more individual overtaking moves.

      The report said there were 72 passes in total on Sunday, not including the first corner of the race. Seven of the moves were on Kimi Raikkonen on one lap, after the Lotus driver's Pirelli tyres gave up the ghost.

      Last year in Shanghai, there were 63 passes. So far in 2012, there were more overtaking moves in China, Malaysia and Australia compared to the same races last season.

      Canada 2011 still stands as the site of the most passes during a single grand prix, at 89. In second place are the 1983 US grand prix and the 2011 Turkish grand prix (79 passes), followed by China last weekend.
      Boy, isn't DRS great??
      Form is temporary; Class is permanent

    23. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 11:48 PM #163
      Quote Originally Posted by kfzmeister View Post
      That was it for Vettel. After the last turn Hamilton simply pulled away.
      And?
      Quote Originally Posted by kfzmeister View Post
      Somebody asked:


      Boy, isn't DRS great??
      I happily stand by my view of DRS-aided passes being unimpressive. I'd take half as many passes any day over watching a car blast by on a straight with its rear wing wide open.

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      04-18-2012 12:06 AM #164
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      And?

      I happily stand by my view of DRS-aided passes being unimpressive. I'd take half as many passes any day over watching a car blast by on a straight with its rear wing wide open.
      First, that car has got to be faster than the one ahead to be able to even catch up with it. Otherwise, the same two cars would just continuously overtake each other. Now how often do you see that??
      Form is temporary; Class is permanent

    25. Member Peloton25's Avatar
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      04-18-2012 12:06 AM #165
      I like DRS - it gives those boys in the booth an extra graphic to show on the screen.

      I like graphics on the screen.

      >8^)
      ER

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      04-18-2012 12:07 AM #166
      Quote Originally Posted by kfzmeister View Post
      First, that car has got to be faster than the one ahead to be able to even catch up with it. Otherwise, the same two cars would just continuously overtake each other. Now how often do you see that??
      As I've already said twice, I appreciate the slower car being able to defend. If that means having a "train" behind it, so be it. If the car/driver is truly faster/better, they'll find a way past.

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      04-18-2012 12:12 AM #167
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthahater View Post
      As I've already said twice, I appreciate the slower car being able to defend. If that means having a "train" behind it, so be it. If the car/driver is Trulli faster/better, they'll find a way past.
      o.k., i think everybody else likes DRS.
      Form is temporary; Class is permanent

    28. Member Peloton25's Avatar
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      04-18-2012 12:23 AM #168
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      As I've already said twice, I appreciate the slower car being able to defend. If that means having a "train" behind it, so be it. If the car/driver is truly faster/better, they'll find a way past.
      Yeah - the Trulli train sure made for some exciting racing.

      >8^)
      ER

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      04-18-2012 08:11 AM #169
      The sky is blue........

      Rebuttal: <_insert here_>

    30. 04-18-2012 10:17 AM #170
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      And?

      I happily stand by my view of DRS-aided passes being unimpressive. I'd take half as many passes any day over watching a car blast by on a straight with its rear wing wide open.
      Then you'll be unimpressed for the remainder of the season. Might as well stop watching now, and stop posting to boot...

      So don't come here shooting your fingers off, when Vettel stands on the podium.. Cause I'm absolutely positive of this (), he will use DRS extensively to get there.

    31. 04-18-2012 10:18 AM #171
      Quote Originally Posted by Peloton25 View Post
      Yeah - the Trulli train sure made for some exciting racing.

      >8^)
      ER









    32. 04-18-2012 10:23 AM #172
      Quote Originally Posted by jsmyle1%... View Post
      The sky is blue........

      Rebuttal: "No! It's is seafoam blue! Here's the video to prove it!" "I never said it wasn't blue! And here's my orginal quote to prove I said, I said it was seafoam blue, and therefore still blue"
      This dude has to be a lawyer...

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      04-18-2012 10:28 AM #173
      Quote Originally Posted by Kidstar View Post








      Carefully re-read the quote in post #167!
      Form is temporary; Class is permanent

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      04-18-2012 10:29 AM #174
      Quote Originally Posted by Peloton25 View Post
      Yeah - the Trulli train sure made for some exciting racing.

      >8^)
      ER

    35. 04-18-2012 10:33 AM #175
      Quote Originally Posted by kfzmeister View Post
      Carefully re-read the quote in post #167!
      I know that's why I'm LMAO!

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