cant decide if I want the TDI or the I5

[sleder]

The TDI is a timing belt driven engine that requires replacement in 60K so the saving in fuel goes to maintanence charges.
which way to go?

[jkinzel]

I believe the timing belt change is closer to 90K miles on the newer engines. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

We drive about 11,000 miles a year. The Taurus gets about 23 to 25 MPG combined. Our Beetle TDI gets 40MPG mostly rural driving. The following figures are from our local Shell station several weeks ago. An annual saving of $629.04 can add up over the years. Three years would pay for your timing belt and water pump, but I think the mileage is better for the I5. If we did a lot of freeway driving in the bug we might be getting 45MPG or better.

11,000 miles divided by 25MPG = 440 gals of gasoline times $3.979 = $1750.76 annually.

11,000 miles divided by 40MPG = 275 gals of diesel times $4.079 = $1121.72 annually.

165 gallons less petroleum product burned annually.

[MCKSHNL]

The TDI feels a lot gutsier than the I5. Love that torque! I drive 500 miles a week so the high mpg was a necessity for me.

Andy

[tonymey]

I like the TDI for one thing only; I only have to fill up every two weeks instead of every week as I was doing in my old car.
If you are worry about something that needs attention 60 or 90K down the road you better off with the 2.5 and save NOW the $ 2K or so it will cost extra to purchase the TDI.
Your money Your Choice…

[natem]

The owners manual states 130,000 miles for the timing belt on the TDI

[Rico1]

The owners manual states 130,000 miles for the timing belt on the TDI

Have these belts gotten that much better? I'm thinking not just mileage, but age. For someone who drive a lot of miles in 4-5 years, that figure of 130K seems reasonable. But these belts don't just wear out with use, they also decompose with age. For someone (like a previous poster in this thread) who only does maybe 10K a year, ten years seems like a long time for a timing belt.....

[sleder]

well my wife drives about 25k per I drove both yesterday and really felt more responsiveness from the I 5 I didn't like the auto upshifting in manual mode of the DGS. The fuel economy is a no brainer but if Im changing belts at 60 to 90 k that will mitigate the fuel savings. The owners manual sattes to check at 60k which probably means change at 75 to 80 K.

[wood2012]

Does the I5 have a timing belt? If so, when do they suggest changing that?

It would seem that the change interval would be close on both engines?

Another consideration is what will fuel prices do? Will they go up? If so, the savings of TDI will be increased and the resale value will also be much higher than a gasoline powerplant.

I plan on optimistically putting 250K-400K on my TDI depending on how well the rest of the car holds up.

[dachman1]

well my wife drives about 25k per I drove both yesterday and really felt more responsiveness from the I 5 I didn't like the auto upshifting in manual mode of the DGS. The fuel economy is a no brainer but if Im changing belts at 60 to 90 k that will mitigate the fuel savings. The owners manual sattes to check at 60k which probably means change at 75 to 80 K.

I think a common misconception with people used to driving gas engines is that the diesels have less throttle response translated as power. Yeah, the gas engines might be quicker off the line at the stop light. But a perfect example where I noticed a ton of power yesterday was at 40 or so, I needed to role on the power getting on to the freeway and then move to the fast lane and past a slow car (up hill). I have no doubt that the diesel felt and actually was much better than our Volvo S60 and our old Jetta (gasser) in that type situation. Role on power is very strong... and that's exactly the type power you actually use frequently.

Put four adults in a diesel and they'll walk away from the I-5 when rolling on the power to pass or go up hill. They just don't bog down. It's all about torque.

Throttle response off the line is not the true measure of power, but it's often how people judge when test driving. (not saying that you do in particular)

A TDi's power is sublte and realized over time.

Also, the 2012 Passat TDi belt interval is 130K. So that issue needs to be put to rest.

[dachman1]

the resale value will also be much higher than a gasoline powerplant.
.

Great point. When we sold our 2001 base engine Jetta, I checked out of curiosity on the resale value of the TDi and it was $2000 higher. At the time we bought the Jetta, the comparable TDi was a $1200 option. So, had we chosen the diesel, not only would we have realized a more powerful engine, much better mileage but also an $800 higher resale value.

[jtrujillo86]

Does the I5 have a timing belt? If so, when do they suggest changing that?

It would seem that the change interval would be close on both engines?

Another consideration is what will fuel prices do? Will they go up? If so, the savings of TDI will be increased and the resale value will also be much higher than a gasoline powerplant.

I plan on optimistically putting 250K-400K on my TDI depending on how well the rest of the car holds up.

The I5s all have timing chains.

- Jeremy.

[MasVW11]

I believe the timing belt change is closer to 90K miles on the newer engines. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

We drive about 11,000 miles a year. The Taurus gets about 23 to 25 MPG combined. Our Beetle TDI gets 40MPG mostly rural driving. The following figures are from our local Shell station several weeks ago. An annual saving of $700.66 can add up over the years. Two years would pay for your timing belt and water pump, but I think the mileage is better for the I5. If we did a lot of freeway driving in the bug we might be getting 45MPG or better.

11,000 miles divided by 25MPG = 458 gals of gasoline times $3.979 = $1822.38 annually.

11,000 miles divided by 40MPG = 275 gals of diesel times $4.079 = $1121.72 annually.

183 gallons less petroleum product burned annually.

It's all about how you pick the numbers....if the diesel is really 2x better, and 87 gas = diesel as you presume, then you'll earn it back quickly...

How about this...these are SC gas prices as of today.

11000/27 = 407 x 3.59 = 1,461
11000/38 = 290 x 3.78 = 1,096

Difference = $365

For SE with roof, difference = $2700/365= 7 years....a few months ago diesel was $.80 more, and the payback time was like 13 years.

This doesn't count investing your upfront savings and it doesn't count resale

[MasVW11]

I think a common misconception with people used to driving gas engines is that the diesels have less throttle response translated as power. Yeah, the gas engines might be quicker off the line at the stop light. But a perfect example where I noticed a ton of power yesterday was at 40 or so, I needed to role on the power getting on to the freeway and then move to the fast lane and past a slow car (up hill). I have no doubt that the diesel felt and actually was much better than our Volvo S60 and our old Jetta (gasser) in that type situation. Role on power is very strong... and that's exactly the type power you actually use frequently.

Put four adults in a diesel and they'll walk away from the I-5 when rolling on the power to pass or go up hill. They just don't bog down. It's all about torque.

Throttle response off the line is not the true measure of power, but it's often how people judge when test driving. (not saying that you do in particular)

A TDi's power is sublte and realized over time.

Also, the 2012 Passat TDi belt interval is 130K. So that issue needs to be put to rest.

This was Saab's mantra....the torque of a turbocharger helps you accelerate once youu're rolling....and Its true....but I've noticed that the only fun I seem to be able to have is from the line to 35 when I'm now behind the next car on the road...so the I-5 is the right mix of pep, OK fuel economy, and chain-driven reliability for me. I like its response off the line, personally in sport mode it's geared well at higher speeds too

[jkinzel]

It's all about how you pick the numbers....if the diesel is really 2x better, and 87 gas = diesel as you presume, then you'll earn it back quickly...

How about this...these are SC gas prices as of today.

11000/27 = 407 x 3.59 = 1,461
11000/38 = 290 x 3.78 = 1,096

Difference = $365

For SE with roof, difference = $2700/365= 7 years....a few months ago diesel was $.80 more, and the payback time was like 13 years.

This doesn't count investing your upfront savings and it doesn't count resale

Wow, I'm jealous, today at the local Shell in Gig Harbor, WA gas was $4.159 and diesel was $4.439.

I agree, the spread between gas and diesel can make or break the savings and it seems to be getting bigger as time goes on. Just a few years ago diesel would be lower than gas in the summer months, not any more. I guess we have China and some emerging nations to blame for that.

I'm still going with the TDI.

[percydobbin]

TDI is the only way to go. The 2.5 makes me not want a VW. The common rail in this car is amazing. GET IT!

[Wagon05]

Drove TDi with DSG - didnt see whole lot of performance difference over 2.5

[johnnydee2]

I wanted the TDI but it worked out to $100 per month more financed !

[miamipassat]

Go for the I5. Notice the posts here. Most issues (check engine, won't start, add blue not added at maintainence, etc...) are all TDI. TDI is good but if you are worried about reliability, go for the I5.

[Lindtech]

The TDI is hands down the best engine VW sells. It is smoother, quieter and far more economical than the 2.5. It will pull the steepest hill at least one gear higher than the 2.5 and feel very relaxed doing it. To calculate how long it would take to pay the difference makes absolutely no sense, as you recover the extra cost for the TDI on resale and then some. I am working on my 8th VW diesel since 1977 and they have been extremely reliable.

[MasVW11]

The TDI is hands down the best engine VW sells. It is smoother, quieter and far more economical than the 2.5. It will pull the steepest hill at least one gear higher than the 2.5 and feel very relaxed doing it. To calculate how long it would take to pay the difference makes absolutely no sense, as you recover the extra cost for the TDI on resale and then some. I am working on my 8th VW diesel since 1977 and they have been extremely reliable.

Sorry, but do you really think buying a car, even a TDI, is a cash producing investment?

I maintain that given the larger upfront cost of the TDI, you have to look at total miles driven, the price of fuel, and how long to recoup your investment....including maintenance and depreciation...it's the same with a new furnace, like choosing geothermal over gas...

As a 10k miles per year driver, If I were wealthier, I'd have considered a TDI for the 800 mile range, as not having to fill up but once every month would be awesome, hands down for me the winning TDI feature.

But as I mentioned above, I'm enjoying the 'from the line' oomph of a 5 cylinder compared with the rolling torque of a turbo engine, and I'm paying less out of pocket per month to lease my 2.5 than I would a comparably equipped TDI, including fuel costs....at least for now.

[Lindtech]

What we are talking about is minimizing the amount that you lose on depreciation and I think come trade in time you might wish you had gone for the TDI. Not even considering the extra fuel the 2.5 will burn.

[But Officer....]

I believe the timing belt change is closer to 90K miles on the newer engines. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

We drive about 11,000 miles a year. The Taurus gets about 23 to 25 MPG combined. Our Beetle TDI gets 40MPG mostly rural driving. The following figures are from our local Shell station several weeks ago. An annual saving of $700.66 can add up over the years. Two years would pay for your timing belt and water pump, but I think the mileage is better for the I5. If we did a lot of freeway driving in the bug we might be getting 45MPG or better.

11,000 miles divided by 25MPG = 458 gals of gasoline times $3.979 = $1822.38 annually.

11,000 miles divided by 40MPG = 275 gals of diesel times $4.079 = $1121.72 annually.

183 gallons less petroleum product burned annually.

Nothing else matters except what's was on the bottom of this post (and isn't included in the quote). The TDI is the only reason to own a VW.

[SA-Passat]

Here is my .02 on the topic. Which one do you like better? Buy that.

If you want to go down the other comparison path then consider the following. How far do you drive a year? More miles more likely TDI, less 2.5. TDI has one additional maintenance item that is highly discussed and pricey, needs to be considered. Is the TDI causing you to buy more car? Part of the cost is it doesn't get as stripped down. If your looking to go pretty well equipped than the cost comparison is engine/tranny. Ever notice how all the "old eccentric" diesel guys talk about long break in periods with increasing performance and fuel economy? In the same breath you ever notice how gas engines (all brands) seem to lose a little snap very early in their life? Not enough to take drastic measures but enough to notice. We've heard of how catastrophic injector fail is if it happens to a common rail diesel but the % is low. If you drive a gas car you will at some point have to clean injectors or some part of the fuel delivery system. You'll need spark plugs, never forget those guys. Someday the TDI will need the DPF replaced. How much do you think fuel will cost before you sell/trade this car? What is the beta between gas and Diesel in your area? Do you live in some crazy frozen yankee state with fuel oil furnaces that will be forced over to ULSD driving up winter prices? How much do lower net emissions mean to you philosophically? How do you drive? Stop light to stop light hammering? 2.5! Slowing and going freeway and state highway? Torque loaded TDI! My wife can't describe torque but says it's power when you need it with out the production(rpms).

Can't imagine the true cost either way is all that significant. Life is so short, unlike my post. Buy what you like.

Full disclosure, I chose the TDI and 5 months later my wife traded for a TDI so I'm biased but I say go with your gut impression. You can't always quantify what you like.

[Kansas Slim]

It's all about how you pick the numbers....if the diesel is really 2x better, and 87 gas = diesel as you presume, then you'll earn it back quickly...

How about this...these are SC gas prices as of today.

11000/27 = 407 x 3.59 = 1,461
11000/38 = 290 x 3.78 = 1,096

Difference = $365

For SE with roof, difference = $2700/365= 7 years....a few months ago diesel was $.80 more, and the payback time was like 13 years.

This doesn't count investing your upfront savings and it doesn't count resale

You're right on the nose. I figured it with the maxed out EPA highway numbers (by the way - Mr. Kinzel needs to check his math) and I commute 20160/yr. Still about 7 1/2 years. But don't forget the sales tax on that extra $2700-$3000. That's a painful check to write. I didn't figure that into my numbers either.

[jkinzel]

You're right on the nose. I figured it with the maxed out EPA highway numbers (by the way - Mr. Kinzel needs to check his math) and I commute 20160/yr. Still about 7 1/2 years. But don't forget the sales tax on that extra $2700-$3000. That's a painful check to write. I didn't figure that into my numbers either.

My bottom line does in clued sales tax, tabs, document fees, etc. I’m trading in two cars for one and expect to pay about $15,000 difference.

All cars are a bad investment, its money down the drain, but a necessity, so keeping that in mind, I’m basing everything on the monthly operating cost of the car, fuel, insurance, tires and repairs. I have no illusion of getting that $15K back.

Repairs might be my Achilles heel.

EDIT:
What to do with the money I save: I plan to retire in the next 12 months and hitting the road, all that money saved in fuel gets to help pay for my supplemental health insurance. How’s that for a fun time.

[Kansas Slim]

No worries. And not a slam on you. I was referring to your original post where you had:

"11,000 miles divided by 25MPG = 458 gals of gasoline times $3.979 = $1822.38 annually."

That works out to 440 gallons. Not a big deal. Just an observation.

[Kansas Slim]

How do you guys get that little signature bar on the bottom of your posts?

[I800C0LLECT]

It's all about how you pick the numbers....if the diesel is really 2x better, and 87 gas = diesel as you presume, then you'll earn it back quickly...

How about this...these are SC gas prices as of today.

11000/27 = 407 x 3.59 = 1,461
11000/38 = 290 x 3.78 = 1,096

Difference = $365

For SE with roof, difference = $2700/365= 7 years....a few months ago diesel was $.80 more, and the payback time was like 13 years.

This doesn't count investing your upfront savings and it doesn't count resale

It IS all about picking your numbers!! There's always an argument for/against anything. It's really easy to pick and choose facts to support what you want. The goal is to be objective. I'm really glad you pulled this out.

In my own determination for TDI I measured potential gas savings vs. maintenance costs. I would have gotten a sunroof no matter the engine choice. Bottom line is cars are nothing really more than a money pit. I try to approach the situation in an attempt to mitigate the amount of money flying out the window. At the end of the day I've realized it's easier to keep a committment when I enjoy the product.

My personal math shows that I'm doing pretty damn good if I'm still driving my TDI 15 years from now *crosses fingers* But you never know who's gonna give you a big fat trade incentive if diesel becomes more popular!!

Roll your die folks.

[jkinzel]

No worries. And not a slam on you. I was referring to your original post where you had:

"11,000 miles divided by 25MPG = 458 gals of gasoline times $3.979 = $1822.38 annually."

That works out to 440 gallons. Not a big deal. Just an observation.

My god your correct, thanks for catching that. Hate it when I make a mistake.

[brian81]

We drive about 11,000 miles a year. The Taurus gets about 23 to 25 MPG combined. Our Beetle TDI gets 40MPG mostly rural driving. The following figures are from our local Shell station several weeks ago. An annual saving of $700.66 can add up over the years. Two years would pay for your timing belt and water pump, but I think the mileage is better for the I5. If we did a lot of freeway driving in the bug we might be getting 45MPG or better.

11,000 miles divided by 25MPG = 458 gals of gasoline times $3.979 = $1822.38 annually.

11,000 miles divided by 40MPG = 275 gals of diesel times $4.079 = $1121.72 annually.

183 gallons less petroleum product burned annually.

I thought about trading my '10 JSW 2.5 manual for a TDI anticipating high fuel costs. Today I filled up our Mini (which gets 33 in suburban driving and 38 highway at 75-80 mph on premium gasoline ) and did the above calculation based on what I've seen with my 2.5 vs 40 mpg overall with a new TDI (giving the TDI the benefit of the doubt at 40mpg). The 2.5 gets 28 mpg in suburban driving and 32-34 on the highway on 87 octane. I used a pessimistically low figure of 28 in the calculation.

11,000 miles divided by 28 mpg = 393 gal of 87 octane x $4.419 = $1630 annually.

11,000 miles divided by 40 mpg = 275 gal of diesel fuel x $4.989 = $1372 annually

the TDI will use 118 gallons less
the TDI will cost $ 258 less for fuel

$258 won't cover the difference in insurance cost between my 2.5 and either a Passat or JSW TDI.
118 gallons of diesel will get the average 18 wheeler about 20 miles down the road.

I read recently a Union of Concerned Scientists paper that states diesel MPG ratings should be downgraded (perhaps 20%) since it takes 25% more oil to produce a gallon of low-sulphur diesel than it does a gallon of gasoline. If this is true, the 118 gallons saved above becomes 94 gallons conserved in terms of oil dependence.

Now I don't feel badly about keeping my 2.5 gas wagon. I do feel an urgency to move from Connecticut. Fuel prices (our taxes are insane) aren't the only thing that's nuts here.

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documen...emma_exsum.pdf

[MasVW11]

I thought about trading my '10 JSW 2.5 manual for a TDI anticipating high fuel costs. Today I filled up our Mini (which gets 33 in suburban driving and 38 highway at 75-80 mph on premium gasoline ) and did the above calculation based on what I've seen with my 2.5 vs 40 mpg overall with a new TDI (giving the TDI the benefit of the doubt at 40mpg). The 2.5 gets 28 mpg in suburban driving and 32-34 on the highway on 87 octane. I used a pessimistically low figure of 28 in the calculation.

11,000 miles divided by 28 mpg = 393 gal of 87 octane x $4.419 = $1630 annually.

11,000 miles divided by 40 mpg = 275 gal of diesel fuel x $4.989 = $1372 annually

the TDI will use 118 gallons less
the TDI will cost $ 258 less for fuel

$258 won't cover the difference in insurance cost between my 2.5 and either a Passat or JSW TDI.
118 gallons of diesel will get the average 18 wheeler about 20 miles down the road.

I read recently a Union of Concerned Scientists paper that states diesel MPG ratings should be downgraded (perhaps 20%) since it takes 25% more oil to produce a gallon of low-sulphur diesel than it does a gallon of gasoline. If this is true, the 118 gallons saved above becomes 94 gallons conserved in terms of oil dependence.

Now I don't feel badly about keeping my 2.5 gas wagon. I do feel an urgency to move from Connecticut. Fuel prices (our taxes are insane) aren't the only thing that's nuts here.

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documen...emma_exsum.pdf

Didn't think about the insurance cost difference....interesting to hear about the oil to fuel conversion difference. I'm not sure why VW doesn't offer incentives to lease the diesel, i.e. for folks driving shorter distances to choose the TDI and have it be cost-effective (all the lease deals say "excludes TDI models"). I think the biggest TDI feature for lower mileage drivers is the range....not having to hit the gas station but every 700 miles would be awesome, and heck, I'm happy that the 2.5 SE's range is about 425 miles, which is 100 more than I got with my 9-3.

But I couldn't bring myself to drink the diesel "kool-aid". Maybe in 3 years when my lease is up, I'll change my tune. Actually, what I want to see is a CR-V/Forester trunk-sized TDI Tiguan

[Kansas Slim]

11,000 miles divided by 28 mpg = 393 gal of 87 octane x $4.419 = $1630 annually.

You must be using the same calculator as Mr. Kinzel! 393 gal x $4.419 = 1736.67ish, therefore spending $364.67ish less in fuel costs.

One article (http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a...di-dpf-faq.htm) says 5 gal of AdBlue will last 15,500 miles. 11,000 mi/15,500 mi = 71%. A quick call to O'Rielly's and 2.5 gal of generic AdBlue is $13.00. VW has the real deal for $13.50. So let's call it $27 for 5 gal x 71% = $19.17 for a year's worth of AdBlue at 11,000 miles/yr.

All that to say that you'll really spend $345.50 less on fuel costs with the TDI (364.67 - 19.17), FWIW.

Does $345.50 cover your insurance cost? I don't have a TDI either, but I'm just sayin'.

[dachman1]

$258 won't cover the difference in insurance cost between my 2.5 and either a Passat or JSW TDI.

Really? That's an outrageous difference. I think my insurance company quoted about $14 annual difference between the TDi and 2.5 gasser.

[dachman1]

A quick call to O'Rielly's and 2.5 gal of generic AdBlue is $13.00.

I bought some of that from Oreilly's just to have in the garage. It was $5 in my local store....and included from VW for the first few years.

[brian81]

You must be using the same calculator as Mr. Kinzel! 393 gal x $4.419 = 1736.67ish, therefore spending $364.67ish less in fuel costs.

Woops. Thanks.

$258 won't cover the difference in insurance cost between my 2.5 and either a Passat or JSW TDI.

Really? That's an outrageous difference. I think my insurance company quoted about $14 annual difference between the TDi and 2.5 gasser.

Connecticut is ridiculously expensive, and a good percentage of drivers in my area always have a phone at their ear.

I have Amica, and the yearly premium is $626 for our '06 Mini, $612 for the '99 Passat, and $898 for the JSW 2.5. I was quoted $1239 for a '12 JSW TDI manual trans and sunroof; $1199 for the Passat TDI manual (sunroof is not available with manual). I was also quoted $1035 for a Tiguan S 6M.

I questioned the TDI cost and was told that "engine-related failures are not unheard of and are exceptionally expensive, and frequently not covered under warranty".