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    Thread: Looking into a chip. Any experience with Unitronic?

    1. Member BuPsychBass's Avatar
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      04-02-2012 06:14 PM #1
      Getting bored with the old man wagon, just wondering if anybody here has any experience with this? The dealer by me quoted $400 for the flash which seems pretty reasonable to me. Has anybody else done it? any noticeable difference?

      Maybe the more alluring part is that Unitronic claims to eliminate the lag from takeoff which, by itself, almost has me sold on it.

      If it matters 2001.5 Passat 4mo
      Quote Originally Posted by Fettes Brot
      Contrary to what Mr Dobson says, not everyone is getting raped out here in the projects.

    2. Member rayj's Avatar
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      04-03-2012 01:49 PM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by BuPsychBass View Post
      ...........eliminate the lag from takeoff which, by itself, almost has me sold on it.........If it matters 2001.5 Passat 4mo
      I believe they mean turbo lag. do you have a turbo? this is the 2.8L v6 forum. non-turbo

    3. Member BuPsychBass's Avatar
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      04-03-2012 03:45 PM #3
      Perhaps that is what they meant... I guess that makes sense. I took it to mean that it would eliminate the hesitation that I experience when I begin to accelerate.

      And yes, I know this is the non-turbo 2.8l 30v forum....

      People generally have good things to say about Unitronic, but I wanted to see if anyone in here had gone through with it on the 30v, with all the people looking my guess is that others are wondering the same thing.
      Quote Originally Posted by Fettes Brot
      Contrary to what Mr Dobson says, not everyone is getting raped out here in the projects.

    4. Member koidragon1980's Avatar
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      04-23-2012 03:33 PM #4
      i have the unitronic tune on my 01.5 passat 2.8l v6, but i'm fwd, not 4mo.

      most people around here don't feel that the gains are worth the $ compared to what a supercharger does, but i love my unitronic tune.

      hp/torque wise, it's equivolent to a stage 1 tune for the 1.8t. for me, it's much more than just a small bump to hp and torque though. i've got a tiptronic auto trans, and it will hold gears longer throughout the powerband and removes the rev limiter... it makes passing at highway speeds very enjoyable. even when driving in full auto (w/o tip), if you go heavy, she will hold gears and rev all the way to redline. i usually have to back off the throttle just a bit to get it to downshift before getting too high into the rpms.

      i think it smooths out the ASR functionality too. i've had moments prior to getting the tune where the car would hop a bit when the ASR kicked in on a heavy take off. now, if i give it too much and the tires spin, it feels smooth while ASR kicks in to take the power away and get rid of the wheel spin.

      on top of this, there are some small mpg gains as well. i took a nice 3-4 hour drive down the NJ Turnpike into Delaware the other week and while cruising at 75mph most of the ride, i was getting 28-30mpg. probably could've gotten even more if i kept things more mellow. city driving isn't much better with the mpg though. my fuel economy around nyc hasn't changed much.

      i don't tend to drive too agressively, my experiences above are just a few examples of the times where i think the tune makes a difference in the driving experience. don't expect the tune to transform things too drastically. overall, you'll be initially underwhelmed by things, but as you continue to drive, the subtle differences and smoothing of some of those "rough edges" that our passat's have will have you not wanting to switch back to stock power and functionality.
      God bless the homicidal maniacs... they make life worthwhile. - George Carlin

    5. Member BuPsychBass's Avatar
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      05-08-2012 09:57 AM #5
      That's exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for! You win sir.

      I think I'm gonna look into doing it for the summer. It sounds like the kinds of improvements you're seeing are exactly the kinda of things I would like to get out of this car. I mean its a big fat wagon, so its never gonna throw down monster 1/4 mile times, but it would be nice to be able to help it get out of its own way!
      Quote Originally Posted by Fettes Brot
      Contrary to what Mr Dobson says, not everyone is getting raped out here in the projects.

    6. Member koidragon1980's Avatar
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      05-09-2012 11:35 AM #6
      the low-end torque is still just a bit sluggish (1.5-2 has a slower pull), but the throttle response is sharper and at highway speeds, if you're cruising at 2.5+rpms, the throttle response and pull is VERY fun. i find myself using the tiptronic more often so that i can have better control over downshifting and keeping the rpms in the 2.5-3 range for a quick pass or for a quick jump to highway speeds while merging.

      i've been researching tip chips as well. i hear good things about the tip chip that VAST makes. it's suppose to slightly increase pressures within the transmission to give faster shifting in both auto and tip modes (1 second lag when shifting w/ tip becomes a 0.2 second lag). if this is true, then this chip on the TCU, in conjuction with the Unitronic ECU flash/chip might make for a fun combo.
      God bless the homicidal maniacs... they make life worthwhile. - George Carlin

    7. Member Slimjimmn's Avatar
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      06-04-2012 10:32 PM #7
      fyi
      you can recode the transmission to sport mode and then when in tip mode it will hold gears until you manually shift (or redline)
      the car is on an inclined driveway and up on jack stands in the front only
      02 GTI 1.8t:> 42DD 3" turboback, BFI full stg1 mount kit, Evoms CAI, Forge boost hoses, Tacotaco sidemount, Ebay TIP, IE 2.0 coil conversion, IE manual tensioner, 20th front brake conversion, IE emissions delete, 42dd catch can, Koni STR.t & WRD sport springs, Samco Coolant hoses, SMF vr6 clutch kit.

    8. Member koidragon1980's Avatar
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      06-05-2012 10:55 AM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by Slimjimmn View Post
      fyi
      you can recode the transmission to sport mode and then when in tip mode it will hold gears until you manually shift (or redline)
      i had the sport mode activated for about a year before i got my tune. while it does give some small improvements over the stock coding, the tune did much more for holding gears and revs while in full auto. in both auto and tip mode, i can actually rev beyond the redline now but i've only done it once by accident. the small bumps to hp, torque and fuel economy are all things that sport mode won't give you either.

      don't get me wrong. i had a friend with a vag-com do the sport mode for me for free and it made enough of a difference for me to not want to go back to the stock coding, but it's no substitute for what the Unitronic tune has added to my driving experience.
      God bless the homicidal maniacs... they make life worthwhile. - George Carlin

    9. Member O_o's Avatar
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      06-30-2012 03:48 AM #9
      Chip tunes are a complete waste on N/A engines. You just can't shove more air and fuel into a cylinder electronically. The stock tune is already optimized for maximum efficiency, which is perfectly compatible with maximum power. There is no trade-off.

    10. Member koidragon1980's Avatar
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      07-03-2012 12:14 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by O_o View Post
      Chip tunes are a complete waste on N/A engines. You just can't shove more air and fuel into a cylinder electronically. The stock tune is already optimized for maximum efficiency, which is perfectly compatible with maximum power. There is no trade-off.
      so how do you explain the small bumps to hp and torque with the v6 tune, which gives = output to a stage 1 tuned 1.8t?

      perhaps your opinion is it's a waste. fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. how do you explain the fact that the unitronic tune increases hp, torque and fuel economy. if there is no trade off between efficiency and power, then why do we not all have fast cars that get 40mpg? why does driving with a heavier foot on the gas cause lower fuel economy in every car regardless of engine type? does this not indicate that the use of more power effectively lowers efficiency?

      the stock tune was designed for the family sedan market, so it's logical that it does not take full advantage of what the stock engine is naturally capable of.
      God bless the homicidal maniacs... they make life worthwhile. - George Carlin

    11. Member O_o's Avatar
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      07-05-2012 12:43 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      so how do you explain the small bumps to hp and torque with the v6 tune, which gives = output to a stage 1 tuned 1.8t?
      Advertising, and random variances. Take a bone-stock car, and put it on a dyno. Repeat. You'll get 2 different results. Now you can state truthfully that doing nothing increased (or decreased) power. There is absolutely nothing preventing tuners from doing this, only repeating as many times as they like, and selecting only the results they like.

      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      perhaps your opinion is it's a waste. fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. how do you explain the fact that the unitronic tune increases hp, torque and fuel economy.
      It doesn't. That's complete BS.

      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      [I]f there is no trade off between efficiency and power, then why do we not all have fast cars that get 40mpg? why does driving with a heavier foot on the gas cause lower fuel economy in every car regardless of engine type? does this not indicate that the use of more power effectively lowers efficiency?
      I said "efficiency" not "fuel efficiency". As in thermal efficiency. Of course you need to burn more fuel to make more power. But optimizing a tune for thermal efficiency, for a given engine design, is one and the same as optimizing it for fuel efficiency, as in mpg. Making more power from the same amount of fuel means better power and fuel efficiency. You have to shove more air in there before you can shove more fuel in there and make more power. Period. And you can't do that by moving around a bunch of electrons.

    12. Member koidragon1980's Avatar
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      07-09-2012 09:13 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by O_o View Post
      Advertising, and random variances. Take a bone-stock car, and put it on a dyno. Repeat. You'll get 2 different results. Now you can state truthfully that doing nothing increased (or decreased) power. There is absolutely nothing preventing tuners from doing this, only repeating as many times as they like, and selecting only the results they like.



      It doesn't. That's complete BS.



      I said "efficiency" not "fuel efficiency". As in thermal efficiency. Of course you need to burn more fuel to make more power. But optimizing a tune for thermal efficiency, for a given engine design, is one and the same as optimizing it for fuel efficiency, as in mpg. Making more power from the same amount of fuel means better power and fuel efficiency. You have to shove more air in there before you can shove more fuel in there and make more power. Period. And you can't do that by moving around a bunch of electrons.
      Sorry man. I disagree with you. Companies like Unitronic, GIAC, etc. are major companies that didn't build a well respected reputation based on bunk data and tunes that don't produce the results advertised. I'll be honest in the fact that I do not know how they adjust the internal cpu data to achieve this, but I'd assume that there are at least some optimized fuel/air mix ratios that provide the small power increases without the need to increase fuel or air delivery. Obviously adding a supercharger to the NA v6 engine will give much better performance improvements, but it doesn't mean that the stock tunes utilize the optimal values for getting full performance and efficiency out of the stock engine. Don't confuse small gains with no gains. It might be a waste to those that want a big power boost, but the increased performance that I get from my Unitronic tune is real. It's not just the hp/torque bumps, the way that power is delivered across the powerband, throttle response and rev limiters have all been tweaked to give an overall better performance and feel over stock.
      God bless the homicidal maniacs... they make life worthwhile. - George Carlin

    13. Member dublax44's Avatar
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      07-09-2012 09:01 PM #13
      I want to look into a unitronic or giac tune for my manual v6. Lmk if you get one and how it turns out
      2004 Passat 2.8L 30V V6 5 spd. M/T

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    14. Member koidragon1980's Avatar
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      07-10-2012 01:47 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by dublax44 View Post
      I want to look into a unitronic or giac tune for my manual v6. Lmk if you get one and how it turns out
      unitronic has a 30-day guarantee, so if you don't like the tune, you should be able to remove it and get a refund.
      God bless the homicidal maniacs... they make life worthwhile. - George Carlin

    15. Member O_o's Avatar
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      07-13-2012 01:54 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      Sorry man. I disagree with you. Companies like Unitronic, GIAC, etc. are major companies that didn't build a well respected reputation based on bunk data and tunes that don't produce the results advertised. I'll be honest in the fact that I do not know how they adjust the internal cpu data to achieve this, but I'd assume that there are at least some optimized fuel/air mix ratios that provide the small power increases without the need to increase fuel or air delivery. Obviously adding a supercharger to the NA v6 engine will give much better performance improvements, but it doesn't mean that the stock tunes utilize the optimal values for getting full performance and efficiency out of the stock engine. Don't confuse small gains with no gains. It might be a waste to those that want a big power boost, but the increased performance that I get from my Unitronic tune is real. It's not just the hp/torque bumps, the way that power is delivered across the powerband, throttle response and rev limiters have all been tweaked to give an overall better performance and feel over stock.
      Well, your assumption is wrong. And you are likely suffering from something called "confirmation bias." They may be well respected, but they can't change the laws of thermodynamics, which are pretty cut and dry on the topic. Fuel economy and power are really the only two things manufacturers can trot out that everybody understands, and they are VERY competitive about it. It's already optimized at the factory. If a tune actually made your car more powerful and fuel efficient, then it would mean that your car was out of tune before.

      And if you don't think "respected" companies like Unitronic don't use marketing tricks, then you really are naive. Notice that nobody ever says you WILL gain 8 hp, that people on average gain 8 ft-lb of torque, or whatnot. They all say you will gain UP TO 8 hp. Well, zero is within the range of up to 8 hp. So is minus 8. So is minus infinity. Those two little words allow purveyors of food, cosmetics, toothpaste, razor blades, diet pills, cars, and yes, chip tunes, to make people buy all kinds of things that don't actually do anything. Because a particular event that resulted in a measured gain of X% happened, however randomly, one single time, it is perfectly legal to say that product Y provides up to X% more Z.

    16. Member koidragon1980's Avatar
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      07-16-2012 10:48 AM #16
      Confirmation bias? As in, believeing the results that both Unitronic and members of the community/consumers have gotten? Have you tested the chip tunes yourself? Do you have evidence from others that have tested the Unitronic v6 tune that have gotten no gains from the tune? If not, then I don't think I'm the one sufferring from confirmation bias. It's not an issue of thermodynamics... it's more simple than that. It's simple adjustments to the ECU's programming that controls things like spark timing, fuel injection, throttle response (DBW), etc. The tune requires the use of higher octane fuel (91+, 93+, etc.), so the small gains on a NA engine are likely due to advancing the ignition timing and running the higher octane fuel help meet the increased ignition timing.

      So all of the people within the Audi/VW community that have chipped their v6 are getting imaginary gains? Do you really think Unitronic is advertising gains that were found once out of the thousands of dyno runs they do? Are the gains people see during their own dyno runs just some lucky fluke that always seems to land in Unitronic's favor? I see people quick to say a v6 chip is a waste, but I have yet to find an actual v6 owner that found the chip did nothing to improve performance. They might not be happy with the minimal gains, but there is not a consensus that the gains don't exist or are some imaginary marketing ploy to sell the Audi/VW community chip tunes. While it's very true that marketing claims are usually just a bunch of bs to get people to buy something, eventually, the community of consumers it targets will make it known whether or not the product actually meets those claims. Unitronic has been around long enough that if their v6 tunes were not producing positive results, that everyone on this and other VW forums would be aware of it and let others know to stay away. Unless you've got your own independent testing of this chip that proves otherwise, your claims of the chip doing nothing are just as suspect as you believe the Unitronic claims to be. The fact that Unitronic has done extensive testing and a large majority of the community has further tested and been satisfied enough to recommend this product goes much further for me, then some random rant claiming that the tune is bs due to a general distrust in marketing and not based on independent testing that yielded results showing no gains from the tune. Your belief that engines/tunes are optimized for full performance from the factory is incorrect. While there are a few vehicles built that truly suck every bit of power out of the engine from the factory, the large majority of vehicles do not roll off the production line with ecu tunes that take full advantage of the engine's capabilities. Typcially, factory engineers will restrict or limit certain aspects of the performance in order to maintain longterm reliability, which for most consumers, is more important than full performance. A company marketing a family sedan will want to brand dependability/longevity/reliability over top performance, and we're talking about a vehicle that is marketed as a family sedan. It makes perfect sense that VW sought to create a tune that was conservative with respect to performance in order to help maintain reliability.
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    17. Member O_o's Avatar
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      07-17-2012 02:27 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      So all of the people within the Audi/VW community that have chipped their v6 are getting imaginary gains?
      Yes.

      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      Do you really think Unitronic is advertising gains that were found once out of the thousands of dyno runs they do?
      You mean just like everybody else? Of course! It's called advertizing, you idiot! Do you really think your teeth will be whiter in just three days? Or that 5 blades really shave "closer" than 4? Or that your whites will be whiter? Jesus, dude, wake up! Advertising is about convincing you that the same old crap either does something new, or that it does whatever it doesn't do better than ever.

      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      I see people quick to say a v6 chip is a waste, but I have yet to find an actual v6 owner that found the chip did nothing to improve performance.
      You know, there was a guy who sold the Eiffel Tower. Twice. People don't like to admit that they spent a lot of money on nothing, so they either convince themselves it does something, or don't talk about it.

      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      They might not be happy with the minimal gains, but there is not a consensus that the gains don't exist or are some imaginary marketing ploy to sell the Audi/VW community chip tunes.
      There are imaginary tunes for every brand of car. Because people who don't know any better will buy them. And quite frankly, I don't give a crap about consensus. It's called SCIENCE, bitches.

      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      While it's very true that marketing claims are usually just a bunch of bs to get people to buy something, eventually, the community of consumers it targets will make it known whether or not the product actually meets those claims.
      I guess that explains why you can still buy fuel additives that improve mileage. LOL!

      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      Unitronic has been around long enough that if their v6 tunes were not producing positive results, that everyone on this and other VW forums would be aware of it and let others know to stay away.
      Why do you insist on making this about Unitronic? I said ALL chip tunes for NA vehicles are complete BS.

      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      Unless you've got your own independent testing of this chip that proves otherwise, your claims of the chip doing nothing are just as suspect as you believe the Unitronic claims to be.
      I don't need "independent testing" any more than I need it to prove that you can't run a car engine on water, because there is simply no credible evidence that you can.

      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      The fact that Unitronic has done extensive testing and a large majority of the community has further tested and been satisfied enough to recommend this product goes much further for me, then some random rant claiming that the tune is bs due to a general distrust in marketing and not based on independent testing that yielded results showing no gains from the tune.
      Truly a confederacy of dunces. My position is not based on "a general distrust in marketing" (although "complete revulsion for an industry completely devoid of any integrity or scruples" would be a more accurate description), it is based on scientific fact, a little something called the First Law of Thermodynamics, and some basic stoichiometry.

      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      Your belief that engines/tunes are optimized for full performance from the factory is incorrect. While there are a few vehicles built that truly suck every bit of power out of the engine from the factory, the large majority of vehicles do not roll off the production line with ecu tunes that take full advantage of the engine's capabilities. Typcially, factory engineers will restrict or limit certain aspects of the performance in order to maintain longterm reliability, which for most consumers, is more important than full performance. A company marketing a family sedan will want to brand dependability/longevity/reliability over top performance, and we're talking about a vehicle that is marketed as a family sedan. It makes perfect sense that VW sought to create a tune that was conservative with respect to performance in order to help maintain reliability.
      Many engines aren't designed for top performance, but that doesn't mean they're not TUNED for top performance, given the equipment on hand. The manufacturers would have to be complete morons not to tune it correctly.

    18. Member koidragon1980's Avatar
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      07-17-2012 09:16 AM #18
      give it a rest dude... you're barking about thermodynamics as the science pointing to the impossibility of ecu tuning a NA engine is incorrect, your railing against advertising is not a real reason that refutes the actual science and mechanical/electrical workings of an NA engine and how optimizing the engines computer software programming can improve performance, and you're claim that all stock engines are factory tuned for top performance is just plain false.

      from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_tuning:

      "Modern engines are equipped with an engine management system (EMS) which can be modified to different settings, producing different performance levels. Manufacturers often produce a few engines which are used in a wider range of models and platforms, and this allows the manufacturers to sell automobiles in various markets with different regulations without having to spend money developing and designing different engines to fit these regulations. This also allows for a single engine to be used by several different brands, tuned to suit their particular buyer's market."

      from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_tuning:

      "Performance gains are realized by adjusting the ignition timing advance. Higher timing may result in higher performance. However, to cope with advanced timing, one must run high-octane gasoline to avoid pre-ignition detonation or pinging. Manufacturers design for a specific timing and this may limit performance accordingly."
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    19. Member O_o's Avatar
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      07-21-2012 03:55 AM #19
      Well, if it's in Wikipedia, it must be true...

      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      "Modern engines are equipped with an engine management system (EMS) which can be modified to different settings, producing different performance levels. Manufacturers often produce a few engines which are used in a wider range of models and platforms, and this allows the manufacturers to sell automobiles in various markets with different regulations without having to spend money developing and designing different engines to fit these regulations. This also allows for a single engine to be used by several different brands, tuned to suit their particular buyer's market."
      Please provide examples of engines that are mechanically identical and tuned differently for different performance levels.

      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      "Performance gains are realized by adjusting the ignition timing advance. Higher timing may result in higher performance. However, to cope with advanced timing, one must run high-octane gasoline to avoid pre-ignition detonation or pinging. Manufacturers design for a specific timing and this may limit performance accordingly."
      Operative word in bold.

      Timing advance isn't some magic power-pill for your engine. The timing has to be set correctly for the type of fuel you're using. Advancing it too far will not only f*** up your engine, but it won't give you any more power either. Higher octane fuel requires more advance. Not the other way around.

      I suggest you contact Unitronic, or any other tuner, and ask them how much power their tune will give you. Not how much it "may" give you. Or "up to" how much power you "might" gain. Ask them straight-up how much power they guarantee. I can already tell you all the BS answers they will give you. First, they will say that they guarantee your money back if you're not satisfied. Well, excuse me, but that's the same guarantee that comes with a Q-Ray bracelet. If you continue to press them, they will probably start spouting something about dyno calibrations and ambient conditions, blah blah blah. Well, pardon me again, but if the supposed gain is less than the uncertainty in the measurement, then you can't claim any gain at all. They're just different ways of avoiding telling you that they guarantee NO power gain at all. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Nothing.

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      07-27-2012 10:21 AM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      ...The tune requires the use of higher octane fuel (91+, 93+, etc.), so the small gains on a NA engine are likely due to advancing the ignition timing and running the higher octane fuel help meet the increased ignition timing...
      DING DING DING we have a winner!

      Quote Originally Posted by O_o View Post
      ...I said ALL chip tunes for NA vehicles are complete BS...
      Yo, eat a d:ck dude.
      Companies have been making chip tunes ever since the advent of electronic fuel injection. Before the almighty 1.8t engine was conceived. Because why? It works. Stock NA cars are usually optimized to run on 87/89 octane. Chip companies design chips for the engine to run on 91/93 octane because ignition timing can be advanced, therefore making more power. Or otherwise increase driveability and feel through other minor tweaks. There is a benefit even if peak power increase numbers are up by only 5% of total original power. Crawl back under the tinfoil hat/rock you've been living under.
      Mine: '87 GTI 8vt, '01 TT 1.8t
      Hers: '01 GTI 1.8t
      Retired: '98 Ranger 4x4, '01 Catera, '90 GLI 16vT, '94 850 Turbo, '90 Golf, '89 Golf, '90 Mustang LX, '91 Jetta, '88 9000S, '86 Jetta, '91 Continental

    21. Member LGDUBR's Avatar
      Join Date
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      04.5 Jetta GLI 1.8T, 02 Jetta GLS 2.Slo
      08-06-2012 11:41 AM #21
      Let us also not forget that from the factory, most cars (esp family sedans such as the passat) are tuned FIRSTLY with emissions in mind, and NOT for maximum performance. I certainly wouldn't call it maximum "efficiency"either because if that were the case, then you wouldn't see huge gains on tuning turbo engines either because why would they ONLY tune NA engines for "maximum efficiency", and not FI cars, too? Makes no sense. I can tell you that every car I've ever had tuned, whether NA or FI, have all seen measurable gains in power and mileage.

      Also, as stated previously, it's not always about forcing more air into the engine, it's about moving the air you have through quicker (via less restriction like intakes, exhaust, etc) or making the actual combustion within the chamber more powerful, via AF and timing changes. Take a look at some of the dyno graphs from the guys with the new 5.0 Mustangs, which are NA cars, and you can see how retarded you are if you think you can't see gains in ecu tuning an NA car.
      04.5 BMP GLI 1.8T
      "It's not what you drive, it's how you drive it" -Clarkson

    22. Junior Member
      Join Date
      May 29th, 2011
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      1998 a4 avant,2001 jetta 1.8t.1996 Passat VR6 wagon,!972 Datsun 510
      08-20-2012 04:54 PM #22
      I would have to say that their are numerous production cars available with an adjustable tune from the drivers seat. All of those cars would be altered by electronics.

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