Fuel Injected ITB's

[Sycoticmynd29]

I'm currently planning a 16v ABA build, and I want to go with ITB's, but I don't want carbs.

So far, most of the builds I've found all have carbs, and I've spent a lot of time looking for information on google as well, but I guess I'm bad at searching for these things because I can't find any useful information.


Do any of you guys know of a detailed build thread, or just somewhere that I can read about this kind of build and what is required to do it?

Any known issues I should be worried about?
Bad idea in general?


I'm still reading stuff about an ITB set up in general, so any information regarding that would be nice too. Thanks!

[bonesaw]

There are a few different companies that make ITB setups for 16v. Some use Itbs from bikes. You will want to look into standalone engine management to control fuel and spark

[Sycoticmynd29]

So basically, I have to deal with getting the ITB's to work properly (opening together, closing, so on)

Then all I have to do is set the management up to fuel / spark correctly?

[Prof315]

My old boss and I had an SCCA tube frame Scirocco with a 1.8L 8V running GSXR ITBs and a megasquirt2 standalone. It worked quite well and wasn't horrible to set up or tune. But you'll want the ITBs from a 98-02 bike.

[Sycoticmynd29]

Any reason why I want that year range?

[Prof315]

Any reason why I want that year range?

Yeah those are the only ones that are truly individual... the newer ones are paired like a weber DCOE.

[SirSpectre]

Also be sure to find a set that has the TPS still on it. Limits the range. I found tons of ITBs but only a few had TPS. Luckily they were off a bike and were only $50

[airplanewrencher]

Here is a DIY i did on some local forums regarding GSXR ITBS and a 16v head. Good info on making your manifold and whatnot.

http://dubberz.com/forum/index.php/topic,61149.0.html

Cheers

[Sycoticmynd29]

That's awesome! Thanks!

What management are you using?




If I get a set of GSXR TB's, do I want GSXR 750, or 1000?

[Prof315]

If I get a set of GSXR TB's, do I want GSXR 750, or 1000?

750 and 1000 are the same size and work well for a 1.8-2.0L turning up to ~8000rpms

[Sycoticmynd29]

What would you suggest if I was aiming for 9k-10k rpm limit?

[airplanewrencher]

I'm using megasquirt( my build isn't quite done)


Do you know how much you want to spend? It gets really expensive making a high rpm high comp na monster. Are you planning on solid lifters? Compression ratio? 94 octane or race gas? Extend of head work?

My setup is this.
Obd1 aba block bored 1mm over
Arp head studs,mainstuds and Conrod bolts
Je 11:1 abf pistons(from integrated engineering)
Gsxr itb's
TT 288 cams
TT hd valve springs
Rest of valve train stock
Very minimal port and polish( more of a cleaning up all the factory cast and machining marks)

[Prof315]

What would you suggest if I was aiming for 9k-10k rpm limit?

A dry sumped motor and hyabusa ITBs

[Sycoticmynd29]

I'm using megasquirt( my build isn't quite done)


Do you know how much you want to spend? It gets really expensive making a high rpm high comp na monster. Are you planning on solid lifters? Compression ratio? 94 octane or race gas? Extend of head work?

My setup is this.
Obd1 aba block bored 1mm over
Arp head studs,mainstuds and Conrod bolts
Je 11:1 abf pistons(from integrated engineering)
Gsxr itb's
TT 288 cams
TT hd valve springs
Rest of valve train stock
Very minimal port and polish( more of a cleaning up all the factory cast and machining marks)

Cost is not a problem, I plan on buying everything piece by piece then building it all at once.

Thinking OBDI ABA bottom end with all new seals and gaskets

ARP bolts / studs on everything

I think ABF pistons, I still want to look into reasonable compression ratios a little more, I'd like to go as high as I can while not risking blowing up my car.

Probably new connecting rods, lighter weight, not sure.

GSXR ITB's

276*cams

Solid lifters

rebuilt valve train, lighter weight, heavy duty parts

Multi-angle valve job

port and polish (probably relatively mild)

With Lugtronic standalone.

The car is going to be a daily, so I would like to keep it on pump gas (hence my compression ratio worries)

I really want to do a 2.0 NA build, but I don't want to spend almost as much on it as I would for a turbo kit, and end up with 30 more HP. I'd like to have a drive-able NA car at around 200hp.

A dry sumped motor and hyabusa ITBs

Any examples? haha, I just kinda want to see it now.

[Sycoticmynd29]

Any suggestions for where I can read about ignition timing?

Seeing lots of talk about people having problems with the ignition timing and setting advances and retarding things, and I have no idea what the point of any of it is.


Thanks.

[SirSpectre]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/..._Index.htm#log

http://www.tuningmadeeasy.com/tuning...nition-part-1/

Basically, its the tuning aspect if your car that will let you get more power, or completely destroy your engine.

[Prof315]

Cost is not a problem, I plan on buying everything piece by piece then building it all at once.

Thinking OBDI ABA bottom end with all new seals and gaskets

ARP bolts / studs on everything

I think ABF pistons, I still want to look into reasonable compression ratios a little more, I'd like to go as high as I can while not risking blowing up my car.

Probably new connecting rods, lighter weight, not sure.

GSXR ITB's

276*cams

Solid lifters

rebuilt valve train, lighter weight, heavy duty parts

Multi-angle valve job

port and polish (probably relatively mild)

With Lugtronic standalone.

The car is going to be a daily, so I would like to keep it on pump gas (hence my compression ratio worries)

I really want to do a 2.0 NA build, but I don't want to spend almost as much on it as I would for a turbo kit, and end up with 30 more HP. I'd like to have a drive-able NA car at around 200hp.

While a drivable 2.0L 200hp N/A motor can be done, you're not going to do it with a 2.0L VW without a dry sump oiling system ( $1500 and up). The factory oiling system is good to about 8000 rpm. You'll need to turn the motor 9000-9500 or more ( like the 2.0L in a Honda S2000) and to do that you HAVE to dry sump it.

[Sycoticmynd29]

So if i go through with the build using the parts listed, about what kind of power do you think I can expect?


Thanks.

[SirSpectre]

Without going into pistons or crank, I bet you could do 165 to 175 whp with that setup.

[Prof315]

Agreed

[Sycoticmynd29]

Found some Helpful seeming threads:

Dyno Results
Build thread

Still reading through everything in the build.

It looks like he used higher compression pistons and bigger valves than I'm planning, but he was able to hit 195whp after his rebuild, and apparently that is without it being tuned for optimum performance...


What compression ratio would you guys suggest I aim for? I heard 11:1 and up is risky on pump gas.

[SirSpectre]

He had bigger pistons, bigger valves, and lighter weight crank. 195 is really, really nice on that setup. With a bigger cam you could start to push some better numbers, along with the bigger valves as well.

11:1 is fine on pump. My ABA runs at 10.7:1 on 93 with no issues. All it means is you will have to use a tad less timing. But if you are itching for some big numbers, crank that up to 13:1 with 83.5mm pistons and use e85 as your fuel. With 288 cams, good porting, and +.5mm valves, you could crack 200 whp with that puppy. Big bucks though

[bonesaw]

Just a note r32 are 11.3:1. You should have no problem with 11:1 on 93

[Sycoticmynd29]

Next question I have is about idling.

I feel like this is probably a really stupid question and that I am over-complicating things which is why I am so confused.

How do you get ITB's to idle?

Not Idle smoothly, or consistently, just idle at all.

The engine I know the best is OBD1 ABA, which uses an IAC / ISV so I'm curious if you use something similar with ITB's, or if its something completely different.


As I said, really stupid question.

[Prof315]

Next question I have is about idling.

I feel like this is probably a really stupid question and that I am over-complicating things which is why I am so confused.

How do you get ITB's to idle?

Not Idle smoothly, or consistently, just idle at all.

The engine I know the best is OBD1 ABA, which uses an IAC / ISV so I'm curious if you use something similar with ITB's, or if its something completely different.


As I said, really stupid question.

Actually all of my ITB/twin sidedraft experience has been that idling is easy even with big cams. Much easier than a plenum manifold and single TB.

That being said, when we did the ITBs on the GTL car we tied the GSXR injector ports together with brass fittings and 3/8 hose and ran them to a digi 1 ISV. but I have put standalone systems on a number of ITB race motors and even without an idle valve they worked fine. Just use the base idle screw on the ITBs

[ValveCoverGasket]

Actually all of my ITB/twin sidedraft experience has been that idling is easy even with big cams. Much easier than a plenum manifold and single TB.

its the off idle performance that can be interesting to tune... idle/crank/startup is usually no problem.


they sound wicked... but id probably still do a budget turbo setup. NA power is always more expensive than you think itll be

[Sycoticmynd29]

Actually all of my ITB/twin sidedraft experience has been that idling is easy even with big cams. Much easier than a plenum manifold and single TB.

That being said, when we did the ITBs on the GTL car we tied the GSXR injector ports together with brass fittings and 3/8 hose and ran them to a digi 1 ISV. but I have put standalone systems on a number of ITB race motors and even without an idle valve they worked fine. Just use the base idle screw on the ITBs

Connecting vaccuum lines from each TB to an ISV is actually something I thought of, so good to know I wasn't over complicating haha

its the off idle performance that can be interesting to tune... idle/crank/startup is usually no problem.


they sound wicked... but id probably still do a budget turbo setup. NA power is always more expensive than you think itll be

Going boosted is definitely the better bang for your buck, but I do plan on owning more than one car and I feel like starting with NA will help me build a better base knowledge of these cars, or at least the functioning of an engine.

So although I did get into NA expecting a cheaper build, as time went on, I kinda stopped caring about the cost haha.

[81type53]

If you plan on ITB's try TWM's model for the 16v. A friend of mine has them and they are quiTE Impressive. You'll want to run Electromotive Tec-3 I believe to have worry free driving and the hottest spark etc. Super quality yet Expensive stuff. GL
I run electromotive XDI on a pretty well built 2.1l 16V motor with dual 45 dcoes and after some Initial tunung by the correct people I have been effortlesly driving It for over a year now with no issues and If I am not hammering It too bad the gas mileage Is even bearable.

[Sycoticmynd29]

I just googled TWM ITB's and looked around for a minute (seriously not long at all)

One thing I noticed was the Google Shopping links with prices over $1g, and I'm just kind of curious as to why they are so expensive?

What would the improvements be over GSXR ITB's?

I also know that those prices are for a new set of ITB's where as the prices I have looked at for the bike throttles are Used prices, but if there aren't $900 worth of reasons to buy the new throttles, I probably wont.


Anything you can show me with some more info on electromotive?


Thanks

[bonesaw]

Twm you get a finished product. You bolt it on and you drive the car. The linkage is figured out. The fuel rail. The tps sensor. Extrudabody also makes a similar setup.

I am suprised someone actually recommends a electromotive unit. It seems they have not updated their system for quite some years and there are products that do a much better job that are more affordable.

[Prof315]

If you plan on ITB's try TWM's model for the 16v. A friend of mine has them and they are quiTE Impressive. You'll want to run Electromotive Tec-3 I believe to have worry free driving and the hottest spark etc. Super quality yet Expensive stuff. GL
I run electromotive XDI on a pretty well built 2.1l 16V motor with dual 45 dcoes and after some Initial tunung by the correct people I have been effortlesly driving It for over a year now with no issues and If I am not hammering It too bad the gas mileage Is even bearable.

While Electromotive makes a decent SEM, the tuning software is less than stellar and with all Electromotive systems (Full out SEM or standalone ignition) YOU MUST run a 60-2 trigger wheel. No options. Also it ain't cheap. Megasquirt or Lugtronic are the best bang for the buck.

[Sycoticmynd29]

Twm you get a finished product. You bolt it on and you drive the car. The linkage is figured out. The fuel rail. The tps sensor. Extrudabody also makes a similar setup.

I am suprised someone actually recommends a electromotive unit. It seems they have not updated their system for quite some years and there are products that do a much better job that are more affordable.

Ah, seems like a lot of money to avoid a little bit of work.


Also, I see you have a link to Lugnuts tuning in your signature, is that you? or are you just promoting someone who does good work?

Only reason I ask is because I know Lugtronic is in Harrisburg (well not know but I've been told) and your profile says rockaway, nj which looks a little closer.


Basically I'm looking for someone who will be able to tune the car (leaning towards a lugtronic set up) that I can get to easily instead of having a map made for me then giving it a shot.

[bonesaw]

Lugtronic is located in Harrisburg area but he does do remote tuning support and does travel for street/dyno/track tuning. He works closely with my buddies shop Caste Systems Performance in Norwood, NJ

[Sycoticmynd29]

Getting closer to actually starting this build!

Probably going to start with getting an ABA bottom end and stripping it down, having it cleaned, then rebuilding it / having it rebuilt.

Then the same for the 16v head.

Then finishing building the motor out of the car to run a normal 16v ABA swap on stock management.

Then getting the ITB's and while I get that all set up, save the money for the Lugtronic.

Goal is to have it done by next show season.

[ABA Scirocco]

These blocks have oiling issues at really high rpm, we've blown up a few of them so I know what of I speak. If you plan to turn them much over 8000 rpm get oversized bearings that increase the main and rod clearance by 0.001". This is one of our 8v grenades, it happened when coming off throttle at about 8700 rpm.