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    Thread: Fuel Injected ITB's

    1. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      04-16-2012 05:50 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Prof315 View Post
      Actually all of my ITB/twin sidedraft experience has been that idling is easy even with big cams. Much easier than a plenum manifold and single TB.
      its the off idle performance that can be interesting to tune... idle/crank/startup is usually no problem.


      they sound wicked... but id probably still do a budget turbo setup. NA power is always more expensive than you think itll be

    2. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      04-16-2012 06:18 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Prof315 View Post
      Actually all of my ITB/twin sidedraft experience has been that idling is easy even with big cams. Much easier than a plenum manifold and single TB.

      That being said, when we did the ITBs on the GTL car we tied the GSXR injector ports together with brass fittings and 3/8 hose and ran them to a digi 1 ISV. but I have put standalone systems on a number of ITB race motors and even without an idle valve they worked fine. Just use the base idle screw on the ITBs
      Connecting vaccuum lines from each TB to an ISV is actually something I thought of, so good to know I wasn't over complicating haha

      Quote Originally Posted by ValveCoverGasket View Post
      its the off idle performance that can be interesting to tune... idle/crank/startup is usually no problem.


      they sound wicked... but id probably still do a budget turbo setup. NA power is always more expensive than you think itll be

      Going boosted is definitely the better bang for your buck, but I do plan on owning more than one car and I feel like starting with NA will help me build a better base knowledge of these cars, or at least the functioning of an engine.

      So although I did get into NA expecting a cheaper build, as time went on, I kinda stopped caring about the cost haha.
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    3. Member 81type53's Avatar
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      05-02-2012 10:07 AM #28
      If you plan on ITB's try TWM's model for the 16v. A friend of mine has them and they are quiTE Impressive. You'll want to run Electromotive Tec-3 I believe to have worry free driving and the hottest spark etc. Super quality yet Expensive stuff. GL
      I run electromotive XDI on a pretty well built 2.1l 16V motor with dual 45 dcoes and after some Initial tunung by the correct people I have been effortlesly driving It for over a year now with no issues and If I am not hammering It too bad the gas mileage Is even bearable.
      Beware the Arizona D-Bags, they know too much!!!!!! ... and Corvettes are over hyped American Junk, just so you know.

    4. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      05-02-2012 11:06 AM #29
      I just googled TWM ITB's and looked around for a minute (seriously not long at all)

      One thing I noticed was the Google Shopping links with prices over $1g, and I'm just kind of curious as to why they are so expensive?

      What would the improvements be over GSXR ITB's?

      I also know that those prices are for a new set of ITB's where as the prices I have looked at for the bike throttles are Used prices, but if there aren't $900 worth of reasons to buy the new throttles, I probably wont.


      Anything you can show me with some more info on electromotive?


      Thanks
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      05-02-2012 03:29 PM #30
      Twm you get a finished product. You bolt it on and you drive the car. The linkage is figured out. The fuel rail. The tps sensor. Extrudabody also makes a similar setup.

      I am suprised someone actually recommends a electromotive unit. It seems they have not updated their system for quite some years and there are products that do a much better job that are more affordable.

    6. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      05-02-2012 04:16 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by 81type53 View Post
      If you plan on ITB's try TWM's model for the 16v. A friend of mine has them and they are quiTE Impressive. You'll want to run Electromotive Tec-3 I believe to have worry free driving and the hottest spark etc. Super quality yet Expensive stuff. GL
      I run electromotive XDI on a pretty well built 2.1l 16V motor with dual 45 dcoes and after some Initial tunung by the correct people I have been effortlesly driving It for over a year now with no issues and If I am not hammering It too bad the gas mileage Is even bearable.
      While Electromotive makes a decent SEM, the tuning software is less than stellar and with all Electromotive systems (Full out SEM or standalone ignition) YOU MUST run a 60-2 trigger wheel. No options. Also it ain't cheap. Megasquirt or Lugtronic are the best bang for the buck.
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    7. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      05-08-2012 03:41 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by bonesaw View Post
      Twm you get a finished product. You bolt it on and you drive the car. The linkage is figured out. The fuel rail. The tps sensor. Extrudabody also makes a similar setup.

      I am suprised someone actually recommends a electromotive unit. It seems they have not updated their system for quite some years and there are products that do a much better job that are more affordable.

      Ah, seems like a lot of money to avoid a little bit of work.


      Also, I see you have a link to Lugnuts tuning in your signature, is that you? or are you just promoting someone who does good work?

      Only reason I ask is because I know Lugtronic is in Harrisburg (well not know but I've been told) and your profile says rockaway, nj which looks a little closer.


      Basically I'm looking for someone who will be able to tune the car (leaning towards a lugtronic set up) that I can get to easily instead of having a map made for me then giving it a shot.
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      05-08-2012 04:17 PM #33
      Lugtronic is located in Harrisburg area but he does do remote tuning support and does travel for street/dyno/track tuning. He works closely with my buddies shop Caste Systems Performance in Norwood, NJ

    9. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      05-23-2012 03:16 PM #34
      Getting closer to actually starting this build!

      Probably going to start with getting an ABA bottom end and stripping it down, having it cleaned, then rebuilding it / having it rebuilt.

      Then the same for the 16v head.

      Then finishing building the motor out of the car to run a normal 16v ABA swap on stock management.

      Then getting the ITB's and while I get that all set up, save the money for the Lugtronic.

      Goal is to have it done by next show season.
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    10. 05-27-2012 03:47 PM #35
      These blocks have oiling issues at really high rpm, we've blown up a few of them so I know what of I speak. If you plan to turn them much over 8000 rpm get oversized bearings that increase the main and rod clearance by 0.001". This is one of our 8v grenades, it happened when coming off throttle at about 8700 rpm.

      Last edited by ABA Scirocco; 05-27-2012 at 03:51 PM.

    11. Member SirSpectre's Avatar
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      05-27-2012 04:08 PM #36
      DAMN. Thats impressive

    12. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      05-28-2012 06:51 AM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by ABA Scirocco View Post
      These blocks have oiling issues at really high rpm, we've blown up a few of them so I know what of I speak. If you plan to turn them much over 8000 rpm get oversized bearings that increase the main and rod clearance by 0.001". This is one of our 8v grenades, it happened when coming off throttle at about 8700 rpm.

      It's the oil pump that causes the starvation issue. Around 8500 rpm or so they start to cavitate.
      The Professor
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    13. 05-28-2012 09:19 AM #38
      There may be problem with the stock oil pump, but there's more going on than just that, we've had similar things happen on engines with an external dry sump style oil pump. The problem is at least somewhat related to how much power the engine produces, a 175bhp motor that's turned 8500rpm seems to be much more reliable than a 195 bhp motor that's turned 8500bhp, I have no way of confirming this but I think something is flexing under extreme load, either the crank or the block, a little extra bearing clearance seems to help the engine withstand this. BTW, the blown up engine in my picture was one of our first 200 bhp 8v's, it had standard bearing clearances.

    14. 05-28-2012 12:04 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by Sycoticmynd29 View Post
      Found some Helpful seeming threads:

      Dyno Results
      Build thread

      Still reading through everything in the build.

      It looks like he used higher compression pistons and bigger valves than I'm planning, but he was able to hit 195whp after his rebuild, and apparently that is without it being tuned for optimum performance...

      What compression ratio would you guys suggest I aim for? I heard 11:1 and up is risky on pump gas.
      hey thats my motor want to buy my itbs im currently looking into the twm's or badger5 itb's. and may be getting rid of the gsxr itb's. i have been running these flawlessly since the build.

    15. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      05-29-2012 09:16 AM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by ABA Scirocco View Post
      These blocks have oiling issues at really high rpm, we've blown up a few of them so I know what of I speak. If you plan to turn them much over 8000 rpm get oversized bearings that increase the main and rod clearance by 0.001". This is one of our 8v grenades, it happened when coming off throttle at about 8700 rpm.
      Looks like I'll be setting a rev limit of 8000 haha

      Are there any better oil pumps I could get? Not even to step the RPM's up more, just so that the oiling system works a little better.



      Quote Originally Posted by vwjunkie42 View Post
      hey thats my motor want to buy my itbs im currently looking into the twm's or badger5 itb's. and may be getting rid of the gsxr itb's. i have been running these flawlessly since the build.
      What are you making the switch?


      As for buying the GSXR's from you, PM me about it.
      Last edited by Sycoticmynd29; 05-29-2012 at 09:19 AM.
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    16. Member -RalleyTuned-'s Avatar
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      05-29-2012 02:44 PM #41
      I did the gsxr throttles on my 16v about 5 years ago. The car ran ms1 v2.2 and it ran decently. The biggest issue with them is that it was never consistent. I was constantly under the hood tweaking the throttles to try and retain a good idle. The biggest issue I found was the intake boot would swell and compress and would get leaks no matter what I tried.

      The car ran well and sounded cool, but in the end I switched to a custom built intake with a single 70mm throttle body. The throttle response was very close and the car made a lot better power and torque.

      Like valvecovergasket said, its not so much the basic tune, its getting the off idle and mid range tuned. Consistency with that setup was difficult and I would never run those or suggest running those on a high power engine. On our race car we are making 185whp and 149ft/lbs running a stock 50mm intake, 276 cams, basic port work, 12:1 compression and ms1. That is a car that runs 30min track sessions at nothing under 4000rpm If you want to do ITB's, spend the money on a nice set from TWM or Jenvey (jenvey being my preference) and you won't have to screw with trying to make the bike throttles work.

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      05-29-2012 05:34 PM #42
      I used ae111 throttles from Toyota and have been very happy with them.

    18. 05-29-2012 06:00 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by -RalleyTuned- View Post
      I did the gsxr throttles on my 16v about 5 years ago. The car ran ms1 v2.2 and it ran decently. The biggest issue with them is that it was never consistent. I was constantly under the hood tweaking the throttles to try and retain a good idle. The biggest issue I found was the intake boot would swell and compress and would get leaks no matter what I tried.

      The car ran well and sounded cool, but in the end I switched to a custom built intake with a single 70mm throttle body. The throttle response was very close and the car made a lot better power and torque.

      Like valvecovergasket said, its not so much the basic tune, its getting the off idle and mid range tuned. Consistency with that setup was difficult and I would never run those or suggest running those on a high power engine. On our race car we are making 185whp and 149ft/lbs running a stock 50mm intake, 276 cams, basic port work, 12:1 compression and ms1. That is a car that runs 30min track sessions at nothing under 4000rpm If you want to do ITB's, spend the money on a nice set from TWM or Jenvey (jenvey being my preference) and you won't have to screw with trying to make the bike throttles work.
      what this guy said. although i disagree with some of what it. i have had no problem with leaks. i have found that after a few years of using as a daily i need to re synch them, but all in all i have been quite happy with them. there are a few reasons i want to go with the jenveys. they are a bit bigger, they look alot cleaner, i will be able to swap trumpets easier. and they will be much easier to keep synched. also i think once i go with the bigger itb and up my fuel pressure i should be able to make over 200 bhp op referred to my build thread in a previous post but for reference specs are

      2L 9A Block
      .040 Wiseco 11:1 pistons
      IE rods
      Balanced crank
      Windage tray
      SCCH intermediate shaft
      Autotech lightweight intermediate gear
      MLS 9A headgasket (stock)

      Ported 1.8L PL Head
      Supertech +.5mm Intake valves backcut to 6.5mm
      Supertech +.5mm Exhaust valves
      Tapered TT guides
      Basic 3-angle valve job
      Supertech valve springs
      Supertech Ti retainers
      German OE lightweight mk4 TDI lifters
      TT 288 cams
      Autotech adj. cam gear @ 3* retarded
      GSXR1000 TB's w/ 3" Velocity of Sound trumpets

    19. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      05-30-2012 10:59 AM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by vwjunkie42 View Post
      what this guy said. although i disagree with some of what it. i have had no problem with leaks. i have found that after a few years of using as a daily i need to re synch them, but all in all i have been quite happy with them. there are a few reasons i want to go with the jenveys. they are a bit bigger, they look alot cleaner, i will be able to swap trumpets easier. and they will be much easier to keep synched. also i think once i go with the bigger itb and up my fuel pressure i should be able to make over 200 bhp op referred to my build thread in a previous post but for reference specs are

      2L 9A Block
      .040 Wiseco 11:1 pistons
      IE rods
      Balanced crank
      Windage tray
      SCCH intermediate shaft
      Autotech lightweight intermediate gear
      MLS 9A headgasket (stock)

      Ported 1.8L PL Head
      Supertech +.5mm Intake valves backcut to 6.5mm
      Supertech +.5mm Exhaust valves
      Tapered TT guides
      Basic 3-angle valve job
      Supertech valve springs
      Supertech Ti retainers
      German OE lightweight mk4 TDI lifters
      TT 288 cams
      Autotech adj. cam gear @ 3* retarded
      GSXR1000 TB's w/ 3" Velocity of Sound trumpets

      Is that your red engine, or the black one?

      Just asking because the beginning of the build for the black motor says you got 11.3:1 pistons
      Eurofine
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    20. 05-30-2012 11:36 AM #45
      yes this is the black one and sorry they are 11.3:1

    21. Member frechem's Avatar
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      05-30-2012 12:18 PM #46
      I would highly recommend going with TWMs over Jenveys and this is coming from someone that has ran both.

    22. 05-30-2012 12:33 PM #47
      really, i was looking at the twms as well. a buddy of mine has them on a counterflow 8v and hates them. have you run the dth ones? from the pics i have found it looks like the linkage may not clear the water neck on the front of the head.

    23. Member frechem's Avatar
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      05-30-2012 02:47 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by vwjunkie42 View Post
      really, i was looking at the twms as well. a buddy of mine has them on a counterflow 8v and hates them. have you run the dth ones? from the pics i have found it looks like the linkage may not clear the water neck on the front of the head.
      Yes I currently run the dth ones. They come with their own water neck. You can look through my build thread to see this along with pictures of both setups.

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      05-31-2012 08:50 PM #49
      I built this
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ntake-manifold page 5 and 6 have the final assembly pics, the first 4 pages are parts gathering and figuring out how to do it.

      what I learned is use the oe injector position, moving the injectors away from the intake valves increases the fuel wall wetting which makes tuning the off idle lean and large throttle close movment over rich impossible to tune out.

      also if you are running a stand alone absolutley make sure you have your wiring dowm pat, no short cuts or you will have electrical noise issues. all sensors should have the the ground wires twisted around the signal wires to prevent inductance issues and the grounds must return to the ecu. you must have a noise free tps signal as there is a drastic change in the fueling for 0-7% throttle position.
      Last edited by weeblebiker; 05-31-2012 at 08:59 PM.
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      I really don't trust myself and have a tendency to catastrophize, but I don't even trust that I screw things up, so I'm pretty damn good at making and fixing stuff!

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      06-04-2012 01:08 AM #50
      I run jenvey itb setup on my 16v and it came as a kit with fuel rail, injectors, linkage. It costs about 1500 bucks well worth it and it looks badass.

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