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    Thread: Fuel Injected ITB's

    1. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      10-05-2012 04:16 PM #126
      Quote Originally Posted by frechem View Post
      I would recommend using SCCH for your headwork. Jarod can also flow bench your head before and after to show you the difference.
      This involves shipping the head out, then shipping the parts to him if he is assembling the head (which I plan on having done by the shop)
      Budz Motorsports

      This is the machine shop I had planned on using as it is 10 minutes from my house.

      Quote Originally Posted by ValveCoverGasket View Post
      didnt he move somewhat recently? i thought i tried looking him up a while back and he wasnt on the west coast anymore...
      Yes he did move (just checked the site) and he moved to the East Coast which would make shipping a little easier and faster, but not close enough that I would no longer have to ship the parts to him.
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    2. Member frechem's Avatar
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      10-05-2012 08:49 PM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by Sycoticmynd29 View Post
      This involves shipping the head out, then shipping the parts to him if he is assembling the head (which I plan on having done by the shop)
      Budz Motorsports

      This is the machine shop I had planned on using as it is 10 minutes from my house.



      Yes he did move (just checked the site) and he moved to the East Coast which would make shipping a little easier and faster, but not close enough that I would no longer have to ship the parts to him.
      I'm telling you it's worth it. My first P&P was done by a local shop in WA and it actually flowed worse than a stock head in certain valve lift ranges. The head had a second go-round by Jarod at SCCH and he made a HUGE improvement.

      Here are some flow graphs for my head,



    3. Member SirSpectre's Avatar
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      10-05-2012 09:24 PM #128
      Sweet baby J I think When I get my head PnP'd, definitely going that route.

    4. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      10-07-2012 12:37 PM #129
      Damn you Frechem.

      Why am I mad at you? Because when I started planning this I made the decision that what ever I'm doing, I'm going to do the best way I can, and now you're screwing things up by hating on the machine chop I was thinking of using and pointing out the throttles I was looking at aren't very good.

      Last edited by Sycoticmynd29; 10-08-2012 at 01:08 PM.
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      10-07-2012 02:05 PM #130
      He is just trying to help from his experience. Maybe the machine shop will be fine but many have found machinists that specialize in VWs many times do it better.

      I would also steer away from bike ITBs. they make throttle response very touchy and the throw is extremely short.

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      10-07-2012 02:37 PM #131
      Quote Originally Posted by bonesaw View Post
      I would also steer away from bike ITBs. they make throttle response very touchy and the throw is extremely short.
      That can be remedied by modifying the throttle cam that the cable attaches to.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

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      10-07-2012 04:03 PM #132
      That's what I was going to say but the terminology escaped me

    8. 10-07-2012 11:59 PM #133
      I would not do bike itbs. I ran gxxr itbs on my car for almost two years and yes the made good power. And can be done on the cheap. But now that I have my badger 5 set up it is like night and day. The drivability and easy tuning made me wish that I had just spent the extra 500 or so more, years ago. Do your self a favor do it the right way the first time or in a few years if you still want itbs you will end up buying new ones. I did and can't be happier.

    9. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 09:00 AM #134
      At this point I might run the bike ITB's as a temporary set up just to get it running on ITB's, as I already own a set of bike throttles (included in the parts pick up I did a few weeks ago)

      End game I will be going with either the TWM's or the Jenvey ITB's (aren't Badger5 throttles the same as the Jenvey throttles?)

      I was originally going to go with the Jenvey's, but Frechem pointed out a handful of flaws in them, so now I'm going to look into the TWM's a bit more, even though they cost more than I paid for the car itself
      Last edited by Sycoticmynd29; 10-08-2012 at 01:08 PM.
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    10. Member frechem's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 09:39 AM #135
      There's no n in my name.

    11. 10-08-2012 09:44 AM #136
      Yes badger 5 and jenvey are the same itbs. Bill at badger 5 gets them grime jenvey and installs his linkage so you can use the stock Vw cable. As for flaws the only thing I did not like about them was the fuel rail but with some custom brackets I was able to run a Vw 1.8t rail.

    12. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 12:05 PM #137
      Quote Originally Posted by frechem View Post
      There's no n in my name.
      Sorry about that, I'll go back and fix it haha

      Quote Originally Posted by vwjunkie42 View Post
      Yes badger 5 and jenvey are the same itbs. Bill at badger 5 gets them grime jenvey and installs his linkage so you can use the stock Vw cable. As for flaws the only thing I did not like about them was the fuel rail but with some custom brackets I was able to run a Vw 1.8t rail.
      Here is the post from Frechem when I asked why he preferred the TWM's over the Jenvey's;

      Quote Originally Posted by frechem View Post
      Sure. Here are a few pros and cons off the top of my head.

      Jenvey Pro

      Less expensive? you get what you pay for

      Jenvey Con

      No FPR
      Only one size (45mm)
      Not very good way to mount throttle cable
      Not very good throttle return
      Two piece design that needs to be sync'd
      Air horns aren't fully radiused
      Multi-piece fuel rail has o-rings that leak easily
      Can't mount flat backing for filter
      Made out of country
      Need to drill and tap for vacuum
      Should run vacuum from all four runners into a vacuum canister
      Not very plug and play

      TWM Pro

      Integrated adjustable FPR
      Multiple sizes (45, 48, and 50mm)
      Good way to mount throttle cable
      Good throttle return
      One piece design
      Air horns are fully radiused
      One piece fuel rail
      Can mount flat backing for filter
      Made in USA
      Has vacuum port through all four runners
      No need for vacuum canister
      As plug and play as you can get

      TWM Con

      More expensive? See Jenvey Pro
      Should mount a fuel pressure gauge on fuel rail
      Before I had even asked him, I had noticed that you need to tap the Jenvey's for vacuum off the bat, and I was kind of unhappy about the idea of taking my brand new $1g part and drilling holes in it when I just spent $800 more than I would have on bike throttles just so they would be a direct bolt on.
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    13. 10-08-2012 09:31 PM #138
      All good points. Taping wasn't that bad. I'm running a 1.8t rail with stock Vw fpr. jenvey sells a dished filter plate. maching them wasn't so bad and the badger linkage works real nice. I see where he is coming from but with a little DIY knowage i found it nice not to spend the extra $. Plus when I went to order the twm ones the where back ordered till the end of the year.

    14. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      10-12-2012 12:53 PM #139
      Quote Originally Posted by vwjunkie42 View Post
      All good points. Taping wasn't that bad. I'm running a 1.8t rail with stock Vw fpr. jenvey sells a dished filter plate. maching them wasn't so bad and the badger linkage works real nice. I see where he is coming from but with a little DIY knowage i found it nice not to spend the extra $. Plus when I went to order the twm ones the where back ordered till the end of the year.
      Part of the reason I decided to step away from bike throttles was for a direct bolt on application, I'm not a fan of the idea of paying 10x as much for a set of throttles, and still have to do do 75% of the modification the bike throttles would have required.

      then again, the throttles and stand alone are going to be some of the last things I get for this, so I still have plenty of time to really make up my mind.


      Hopefully picking up this transmission this weekend, then all extra money I get will be getting set aside for the valve train and head work.

      I'm going to start talking to Jarod at SCCH about some work and some prices, turn around times, and all sorts of other fun stuff.


      Frechem, what was your power at the wheels last time you dyno'd it? Last graph I saw was from 2010 and had you at ~165

      I saw that you went with the stg4 head from SCCH, which is what I'm going to be doing, but I also saw that you have your rev limit at ~7500.

      I'm beginning to get kinda worried that my power goals are unrealistic.
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    15. Member frechem's Avatar
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      10-12-2012 01:40 PM #140
      Quote Originally Posted by Sycoticmynd29 View Post
      Frechem, what was your power at the wheels last time you dyno'd it? Last graph I saw was from 2010 and had you at ~165

      I saw that you went with the stg4 head from SCCH, which is what I'm going to be doing, but I also saw that you have your rev limit at ~7500.

      I'm beginning to get kinda worried that my power goals are unrealistic.
      That graph is from the last time I dyno'd my car. I haven't done anything to the motor since then except for some tuning.

      I have my rev limit set at 7500 because I don't need to go any higher. From my other dyno runs I can tell I start losing power around that point so that's where I set it. I'm sure the head could take it but my bottom end isn't built for high RPMs.

      If you're looking for 200 whp then be willing to spend a MAJOR amount of money. A 9000 RPM motor will help you get to 200 whp but that will be a very high sprung race motor.

      I would not recommend chasing numbers. That can be a huge waste of time and money.

    16. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      10-12-2012 02:52 PM #141
      Quote Originally Posted by frechem View Post
      That graph is from the last time I dyno'd my car. I haven't done anything to the motor since then except for some tuning.

      I have my rev limit set at 7500 because I don't need to go any higher. From my other dyno runs I can tell I start losing power around that point so that's where I set it. I'm sure the head could take it but my bottom end isn't built for high RPMs.

      If you're looking for 200 whp then be willing to spend a MAJOR amount of money. A 9000 RPM motor will help you get to 200 whp but that will be a very high sprung race motor.

      I would not recommend chasing numbers. That can be a huge waste of time and money.
      When you dyno'd the higher rev limit, which throttles were you using? the 45mm or the 48mm? Just curious if it would make a difference.

      I'm going to have my Rev limit set at 8500 so I would be shifting just after 8k.


      I'm also going to be using an OBD1 ABA bottom end which I'm also building towards higher revs and high compression.

      I would absolutely love to run 12:1 CR, but at the same time, I'm worried that at some point in time I'll end up getting some bad gas and having things go wrong.

      I've been thinking about stepping down to 11.5:1 and seeing how that works out, and if I'm unhappy with it, going up to 12.


      as I said, I'll be contacting Jarod shortly about the build and see what he suggests.


      Thanks again for all your help, I don't want to bother you, you just have a but load of experience in this area as you've tried different things.
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    17. Member frechem's Avatar
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      10-12-2012 03:23 PM #142
      Quote Originally Posted by Sycoticmynd29 View Post
      When you dyno'd the higher rev limit, which throttles were you using? the 45mm or the 48mm? Just curious if it would make a difference.

      I'm going to have my Rev limit set at 8500 so I would be shifting just after 8k.

      I'm also going to be using an OBD1 ABA bottom end which I'm also building towards higher revs and high compression.

      I would absolutely love to run 12:1 CR, but at the same time, I'm worried that at some point in time I'll end up getting some bad gas and having things go wrong.

      I've been thinking about stepping down to 11.5:1 and seeing how that works out, and if I'm unhappy with it, going up to 12.

      as I said, I'll be contacting Jarod shortly about the build and see what he suggests.

      Thanks again for all your help, I don't want to bother you, you just have a but load of experience in this area as you've tried different things.
      I found out my limit on both sizes and set my rev limit accordingly.

      Contacting Jarod would be a great idea as he has a wealth of knowledge on the subject.

      Also, I'm not sure an ABA block would be the best for a high reving motor. It is a tall block and therefore has a longer rod length I believe. This is good for torque but not so much for revs. I know the FI guys like it because of the forged crank and oil squirters but that is something you might want to research.

      I'll keep answering your questions to the best of my abilities. You're not bothering me at all. That's why we're here, to learn from one another.

    18. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      10-12-2012 03:43 PM #143
      Quote Originally Posted by frechem View Post
      I found out my limit on both sizes and set my rev limit accordingly.

      Contacting Jarod would be a great idea as he has a wealth of knowledge on the subject.

      Also, I'm not sure an ABA block would be the best for a high reving motor. It is a tall block and therefore has a longer rod length I believe. This is good for torque but not so much for revs. I know the FI guys like it because of the forged crank and oil squirters but that is something you might want to research.

      I'll keep answering your questions to the best of my abilities. You're not bothering me at all. That's why we're here, to learn from one another.
      I know there are better blocks for higher revs, but there is just something about the ABA that I love. And I figure the shorter stroke makes it more reliable as there is less wear on the parts because they don't need to move as fast, but I won't be revving out to 7g+ constantly, so I feel like I'll be fine using the ABA.

      I'm going to re-read vwjunkie's build thread for the motor he got to 195whp on bike throttles, see what he did, and go from there.

      Will you be going to Waterfest next year? I'm pretty mad I missed you at h20, I would have loved to see your car in person!
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      10-12-2012 03:56 PM #144
      I can attest to not chasing #s. I really wanted to make 200whp. On the dyno I made 178whp on a superflow. It may be closer to 200whp on a dynojet but havent had the time to redyno. I was a little bummed but the car still boogies. Pulls to 8700rpm. It didnt gain much power past 8200 but it did not lose. I am running 20v head with AE111 45mm ITBs. No porting has been done yet. 12:1 using a mk4 2.0 block. if this is going into mk2 or later it may be something to look into. Internal waterpump. already 2.0. shorter rods. Some have oil squirters. Internal trigger wheel over a 16v block. ABA will also work out fine but not the only option. my recommendation is to continue doing research so you can do it right the first time.

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      10-12-2012 04:01 PM #145
      Quote Originally Posted by frechem View Post
      I would not recommend chasing numbers. That can be a huge waste of time and money.
      indeed, and its unlikely youll really feel the last 10hp on the street anyway... let alone be operating up there often enough to notice

    21. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      10-15-2012 02:09 PM #146
      What I currently Have:

      PnP'd 16v head, completely disassembled
      OBD1 ABA bottom end, completely disassembled
      Freshly balanced ABA crank
      ARP head bolts, rod bolts, and I believe Main bolts
      16v manifold flange
      All of the internals for the ABA16v, still not 100% on what they are out of.
      Eurospec underdrive LW crank pulley (not sure if I'll be using this)
      All accessories

      What I own but don't have in my possession yet:
      GSXR ITB's no idea what all is on them, still haven't seen them


      Shopping list:
      Complete Valvetrain (not sure if parts are included in the cost listed on SSCH)
      Cams (276 or 288)
      All gaskets and seals for the block
      All Bearings for the block
      Rods
      Pistons 83.5mm 11.3-12:1 CR (leaning more towards 11.3 now because of VWjunkie's build)
      Lugtronic ECU
      TWM ITB's (45mm unless I know I will benefit from going larger)
      Any remaining ARP hardware
      Custom "tuned" header


      Those are the main things I'm going to be getting off the top of my head, I know there is more, I'll just have to get it when I realize I don't have it already.

      I still need to look into fueling, but as far as I can tell I will only need an adjustable FPR, or possible injectors.


      I've started setting money aside for this, and will probably start making moves once I have enough for the head work.


      I hate how close I am to being able to do this, but at the same time, I'm pretty far away.
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    22. Member frechem's Avatar
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      10-15-2012 02:24 PM #147
      Quote Originally Posted by Sycoticmynd29 View Post
      What I currently Have:

      PnP'd 16v head, completely disassembled
      OBD1 ABA bottom end, completely disassembled
      Freshly balanced ABA crank
      ARP head bolts, rod bolts, and I believe Main bolts
      16v manifold flange
      All of the internals for the ABA16v, still not 100% on what they are out of.
      Eurospec underdrive LW crank pulley (not sure if I'll be using this)
      All accessories

      What I own but don't have in my possession yet:
      GSXR ITB's no idea what all is on them, still haven't seen them


      Shopping list:
      Complete Valvetrain (not sure if parts are included in the cost listed on SSCH)
      Cams (276 or 288)
      All gaskets and seals for the block
      All Bearings for the block
      Rods
      Pistons 83.5mm 11.3-12:1 CR (leaning more towards 11.3 now because of VWjunkie's build)
      Lugtronic ECU
      TWM ITB's (45mm unless I know I will benefit from going larger)
      Any remaining ARP hardware
      Custom "tuned" header

      Those are the main things I'm going to be getting off the top of my head, I know there is more, I'll just have to get it when I realize I don't have it already.

      I still need to look into fueling, but as far as I can tell I will only need an adjustable FPR, or possible injectors.

      I've started setting money aside for this, and will probably start making moves once I have enough for the head work.

      I hate how close I am to being able to do this, but at the same time, I'm pretty far away.
      Parts are not included into the price of a SCCH head. However, he might be able to get some deals for you on stuff if you order everything through him. If you go with TWM ITBs you won't need an FPR as they already have one. If you are increasing your displacement and/or CR and running 288 cams then I would suggest going with 48mm bodies. I would only run 45s on a "stockish" motor.

    23. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      10-15-2012 02:29 PM #148
      Quote Originally Posted by frechem View Post
      Parts are not included into the price of a SCCH head. However, he might be able to get some deals for you on stuff if you order everything through him. If you go with TWM ITBs you won't need an FPR as they already have one. If you are increasing your displacement and/or CR and running 288 cams then I would suggest going with 48mm bodies. I would only run 45s on a "stockish" motor.
      Wow, that was honestly the only reason I could see the price tag on the stg4 head being $2,500

      I can get the same work done, as well as get a ferrea valve train and pay less than or about that at the shop around here.
      Last edited by Sycoticmynd29; 10-15-2012 at 02:33 PM.
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    24. Member frechem's Avatar
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      10-15-2012 03:34 PM #149
      Quote Originally Posted by Sycoticmynd29 View Post
      Wow, that was honestly the only reason I could see the price tag on the stg4 head being $2,500

      I can get the same work done, as well as get a ferrea valve train and pay less than or about that at the shop around here.
      Maybe it is then. I thought it wasn't but I may be wrong. Better ask him just to be certain.

    25. Member Sycoticmynd29's Avatar
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      10-18-2012 09:20 AM #150
      Quote Originally Posted by bonesaw View Post
      I can attest to not chasing #s. I really wanted to make 200whp. On the dyno I made 178whp on a superflow. It may be closer to 200whp on a dynojet but havent had the time to redyno. I was a little bummed but the car still boogies. Pulls to 8700rpm. It didnt gain much power past 8200 but it did not lose. I am running 20v head with AE111 45mm ITBs. No porting has been done yet. 12:1 using a mk4 2.0 block. if this is going into mk2 or later it may be something to look into. Internal waterpump. already 2.0. shorter rods. Some have oil squirters. Internal trigger wheel over a 16v block. ABA will also work out fine but not the only option. my recommendation is to continue doing research so you can do it right the first time.
      Do you still run a hydro head?
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