Fuel Injected ITB's

[Sycoticmynd29]

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/turbo-plenum

They make plenums for boost as well as normal ones.

[Sycoticmynd29]

83.5mm pistons.
Yay or Nay?

If I have done the math right, it should bring my overall displacement from 1984cc to 2032cc as well as bring my bore / stroke ratio to ~0.90:1 from 0.89:1 stock.

And from what I can tell, the closer to square / Oversquare, the better? (allows for easier revving to high RPMs)

Although I guess since I'm not changing the stroke, it really wouldn't matter in that aspect.

[Sycoticmynd29]

So after my last post, I started reading about compression ratios, and how to raise or lower them.

Realized I literally had no idea what I was dealing with,, and that my last post is kinda dumb.


So I am trying to do as much research as I can before I actually get my parts, but I realized I can't really do many theory measurements, as when I get the head I am going to have bigger valves put in as well as a multi-angle valve job, and I feel like this is going to alter the CC's of the combustion chamber. Will any changes to the volume be significant enough that I should wait to get the head work done and measure, or would I be safe to do some rough guesses using values for the combustion chamber I have found?

Quote, originally posted by CrackerX »

I measured the cylinder head combustion chambers of a 1.8L and 2.0L head with a Bosh triple copper plug installed. The 1.8L head was 41.6cc's on average, and the 2.0L head was 43.4cc's on average with a +-.2 cc error margin. Very different from the 45cc "accepted" value. Neither head had been shaved as far as I could tell...

[Sycoticmynd29]

Going to pick up the engine and various other parts for this this weekend.

Then its time to start stockpiling parts!

[Sycoticmynd29]

Over the weekend I drove out to Ohio and came back with enough parts to have a 16v ABA on ITB's assembled by the end of next month. BUT, that would be all stock internals, and no more head work than just a PnP.

Unfortunately, now that I have most of the parts I need to get started, I have to deal with a more serious problem with my car. Floors need to be replaced ASAP. UGH

[Rdoppie]

good luck
always been a dream project for me to Build a spare 16v 2.1L on ITBs
never had the to actually start it

[Sycoticmynd29]

Alrighty, So its time to buy my valve train. But the question is have now is, should I have the head flow benched before I decide on valve sizes?

[bonesaw]

Depends how much money you want to spend.

[SirSpectre]

ITBs LOVE big valves. Go over sized either way. Don't bother flowbench before porting IMO.

[Sycoticmynd29]

Depends how much money you want to spend.

Would it be worth the money though?

ITBs LOVE big valves. Go over sized either way. Don't bother flowbench before porting IMO.

The head has already been PnP'ed, I just don't want to go too big on the valves and end up with terrible velocity.

32.5mm Intake / 28mm Exhaust
34mm Intake 28.5 Exhaust

Or should I piece together a valve train instead of buying a kit?

[Sycoticmynd29]

So far the build threads I have read on here, including the ones linked earlier, and some I found, they have used +.5mm valves, so that's what I'm going to use.

Downside, I found a pretty good deal on a completely unrelated part, so I might have to pick that up before I can buy my valve train.

Yay for parts ADD

[bonesaw]

Anything good?

[Sycoticmynd29]

Anything good?

020 trans with a quaife LSD and the same Trans code I had in my jetta and loved.

[bonesaw]

I hope 3.94.

[Sycoticmynd29]

Code 1st. 2nd. 3rd. 4th. 5th. R&P Notes
CHE 3.45 1.94 1.28 0.97 0.80 3.67 From '93 115hp,Large input shaft

"Borrowed" from Broke's site.

[vwjunkie42]

So far the build threads I have read on here, including the ones linked earlier, and some I found, they have used +.5mm valves, so that's what I'm going to use.

Downside, I found a pretty good deal on a completely unrelated part, so I might have to pick that up before I can buy my valve train.

Yay for parts ADD

You can often find deals on super tech valves on eBay. I went with the +.5 undercut, and if your spending the money go with the tapered guides as well.

[Sycoticmynd29]

You can often find deals on super tech valves on eBay. I went with the +.5 undercut, and if your spending the money go with the tapered guides as well.

Because the head has already been PnP'd, I think I'm going to have it flow benched to get some base line numbers before I buy anything.

Before I bought the head I was told it was "very port and polished" so now I'm terrified that I'm going to spend a bunch of money on valves, and end up with a head that flows like garbage for what I'm trying to do.

[SirSpectre]

Don't worry about velocity for ITBs. They will give very high velocities either way.

[frechem]

Because the head has already been PnP'd, I think I'm going to have it flow benched to get some base line numbers before I buy anything.

Before I bought the head I was told it was "very port and polished" so now I'm terrified that I'm going to spend a bunch of money on valves, and end up with a head that flows like garbage for what I'm trying to do.

I would recommend using SCCH for your headwork. Jarod can also flow bench your head before and after to show you the difference.

[ValveCoverGasket]

I would recommend using SCCH for your headwork. Jarod can also flow bench your head before and after to show you the difference.

didnt he move somewhat recently? i thought i tried looking him up a while back and he wasnt on the west coast anymore...

[Sycoticmynd29]

I would recommend using SCCH for your headwork. Jarod can also flow bench your head before and after to show you the difference.

This involves shipping the head out, then shipping the parts to him if he is assembling the head (which I plan on having done by the shop)
Budz Motorsports

This is the machine shop I had planned on using as it is 10 minutes from my house.

didnt he move somewhat recently? i thought i tried looking him up a while back and he wasnt on the west coast anymore...

Yes he did move (just checked the site) and he moved to the East Coast which would make shipping a little easier and faster, but not close enough that I would no longer have to ship the parts to him.

[frechem]

This involves shipping the head out, then shipping the parts to him if he is assembling the head (which I plan on having done by the shop)
Budz Motorsports

This is the machine shop I had planned on using as it is 10 minutes from my house.



Yes he did move (just checked the site) and he moved to the East Coast which would make shipping a little easier and faster, but not close enough that I would no longer have to ship the parts to him.

I'm telling you it's worth it. My first P&P was done by a local shop in WA and it actually flowed worse than a stock head in certain valve lift ranges. The head had a second go-round by Jarod at SCCH and he made a HUGE improvement.

Here are some flow graphs for my head,

[SirSpectre]

Sweet baby J I think When I get my head PnP'd, definitely going that route.

[Sycoticmynd29]

Damn you Frechem.

Why am I mad at you? Because when I started planning this I made the decision that what ever I'm doing, I'm going to do the best way I can, and now you're screwing things up by hating on the machine chop I was thinking of using and pointing out the throttles I was looking at aren't very good.

[bonesaw]

He is just trying to help from his experience. Maybe the machine shop will be fine but many have found machinists that specialize in VWs many times do it better.

I would also steer away from bike ITBs. they make throttle response very touchy and the throw is extremely short.

[ps2375]

I would also steer away from bike ITBs. they make throttle response very touchy and the throw is extremely short.

That can be remedied by modifying the throttle cam that the cable attaches to.

[bonesaw]

That's what I was going to say but the terminology escaped me

[vwjunkie42]

I would not do bike itbs. I ran gxxr itbs on my car for almost two years and yes the made good power. And can be done on the cheap. But now that I have my badger 5 set up it is like night and day. The drivability and easy tuning made me wish that I had just spent the extra 500 or so more, years ago. Do your self a favor do it the right way the first time or in a few years if you still want itbs you will end up buying new ones. I did and can't be happier.

[Sycoticmynd29]

At this point I might run the bike ITB's as a temporary set up just to get it running on ITB's, as I already own a set of bike throttles (included in the parts pick up I did a few weeks ago)

End game I will be going with either the TWM's or the Jenvey ITB's (aren't Badger5 throttles the same as the Jenvey throttles?)

I was originally going to go with the Jenvey's, but Frechem pointed out a handful of flaws in them, so now I'm going to look into the TWM's a bit more, even though they cost more than I paid for the car itself

[frechem]

There's no n in my name.

[vwjunkie42]

Yes badger 5 and jenvey are the same itbs. Bill at badger 5 gets them grime jenvey and installs his linkage so you can use the stock Vw cable. As for flaws the only thing I did not like about them was the fuel rail but with some custom brackets I was able to run a Vw 1.8t rail.

[Sycoticmynd29]

There's no n in my name.

Sorry about that, I'll go back and fix it haha

Yes badger 5 and jenvey are the same itbs. Bill at badger 5 gets them grime jenvey and installs his linkage so you can use the stock Vw cable. As for flaws the only thing I did not like about them was the fuel rail but with some custom brackets I was able to run a Vw 1.8t rail.

Here is the post from Frechem when I asked why he preferred the TWM's over the Jenvey's;

Sure. Here are a few pros and cons off the top of my head.

Jenvey Pro

Less expensive? you get what you pay for

Jenvey Con

No FPR
Only one size (45mm)
Not very good way to mount throttle cable
Not very good throttle return
Two piece design that needs to be sync'd
Air horns aren't fully radiused
Multi-piece fuel rail has o-rings that leak easily
Can't mount flat backing for filter
Made out of country
Need to drill and tap for vacuum
Should run vacuum from all four runners into a vacuum canister
Not very plug and play

TWM Pro

Integrated adjustable FPR
Multiple sizes (45, 48, and 50mm)
Good way to mount throttle cable
Good throttle return
One piece design
Air horns are fully radiused
One piece fuel rail
Can mount flat backing for filter
Made in USA
Has vacuum port through all four runners
No need for vacuum canister
As plug and play as you can get

TWM Con

More expensive? See Jenvey Pro
Should mount a fuel pressure gauge on fuel rail

Before I had even asked him, I had noticed that you need to tap the Jenvey's for vacuum off the bat, and I was kind of unhappy about the idea of taking my brand new $1g part and drilling holes in it when I just spent $800 more than I would have on bike throttles just so they would be a direct bolt on.

[vwjunkie42]

All good points. Taping wasn't that bad. I'm running a 1.8t rail with stock Vw fpr. jenvey sells a dished filter plate. maching them wasn't so bad and the badger linkage works real nice. I see where he is coming from but with a little DIY knowage i found it nice not to spend the extra $. Plus when I went to order the twm ones the where back ordered till the end of the year.

[Sycoticmynd29]

All good points. Taping wasn't that bad. I'm running a 1.8t rail with stock Vw fpr. jenvey sells a dished filter plate. maching them wasn't so bad and the badger linkage works real nice. I see where he is coming from but with a little DIY knowage i found it nice not to spend the extra $. Plus when I went to order the twm ones the where back ordered till the end of the year.

Part of the reason I decided to step away from bike throttles was for a direct bolt on application, I'm not a fan of the idea of paying 10x as much for a set of throttles, and still have to do do 75% of the modification the bike throttles would have required.

then again, the throttles and stand alone are going to be some of the last things I get for this, so I still have plenty of time to really make up my mind.


Hopefully picking up this transmission this weekend, then all extra money I get will be getting set aside for the valve train and head work.

I'm going to start talking to Jarod at SCCH about some work and some prices, turn around times, and all sorts of other fun stuff.


Frechem, what was your power at the wheels last time you dyno'd it? Last graph I saw was from 2010 and had you at ~165

I saw that you went with the stg4 head from SCCH, which is what I'm going to be doing, but I also saw that you have your rev limit at ~7500.

I'm beginning to get kinda worried that my power goals are unrealistic.

[frechem]

Frechem, what was your power at the wheels last time you dyno'd it? Last graph I saw was from 2010 and had you at ~165

I saw that you went with the stg4 head from SCCH, which is what I'm going to be doing, but I also saw that you have your rev limit at ~7500.

I'm beginning to get kinda worried that my power goals are unrealistic.

That graph is from the last time I dyno'd my car. I haven't done anything to the motor since then except for some tuning.

I have my rev limit set at 7500 because I don't need to go any higher. From my other dyno runs I can tell I start losing power around that point so that's where I set it. I'm sure the head could take it but my bottom end isn't built for high RPMs.

If you're looking for 200 whp then be willing to spend a MAJOR amount of money. A 9000 RPM motor will help you get to 200 whp but that will be a very high sprung race motor.

I would not recommend chasing numbers. That can be a huge waste of time and money.