Golf R vs EVO MR video

[emulous]

I don't disagree, but why should we be forced to open ourselves to insurance or legal issues by pulling fuses, when other carmakers let us legally disable ESP?

A bit hypocritical of a statement there

I've probably sucked more dicks than all your wives/girlfriends combined, but a lot of you folks in the R forum act like a bunch of immature pansies a lot of the times

[webcrawlr]

Actually it doesn't and my experience is the opposite of yours. As I note in my previous diatribe I have pushed my car beyond a little bit and I've yet to see it intrude on me. The only time it did was in the first day or so in the wet with tire pressures set to 46 pounds by the stupid dealership. But then I learned how to drive on the second most dangerous car known to man and surviving that teaches you how to sense and manage traction as well as any Haldex.

Then we are clearly pushing to different limits. With dry tarmac and properly inflated stock tires I can get ESP kicking in on corner exit almost at will. I could whip my e-penis out as well and give you the run down of my experience but I don't see how it's relevant. Even a rookie driver on a slower auto-x course would be able to get ESP to put the brakes on during a hot corner exit.

[Dawg90]

As we seem to have done some jail time at the same 'track' (and in the case of NHMS I hope we can agree to use that term loosely), I'll will say that a flashing light is a hell of a lot better teaching moment should, for example, the less experienced lift in 2B than the alternative of backing it into the wall. Something, BTW, that has happen to more than one novice in the rain. But no, over driving, having ESP intervene to infuriatingly slow the car resulting in being forced to suffer the humiliation of giving a point to the guy dogging you in a car with 100 less HP is the teaching moment. As David Murry once put it, all cars, even F1 cars, are momentum cars. The first rule is that anything that gets in the way of maintaining momentum is something that must be at best avoided or at worst minimized. Speed, once attained should only be given up grudgingly. So I simply maintain that ESP, again if it does not limit or intervene prior to the tires producing just slightly over the backside of maximum grip, is just another handling characteristic or if you prefer, impediment, to be embraced and overcome.

Look, I really don't want to be in the position of defending ESP. I don't like the fact it cant be defeated either. I somewhat of a Darwinist in this regard as long as I'm not the one in the right hand seat. And if Arin and crew can provide the capability, I'll certainly pay a reasonable sum to be able to switch it off. But, if I was feeling so old or poor that I was finally ready to chuck the race car and just track a streeter occasionally for yucks, the fact that ESP in the R can't be turned off would never be the thing that prevented me from buying one. And that, as much as I enjoyed it overall, is what I was taking issue with in the review.

I think we pretty much agree - if ESP intervenes in a major way like that you'll learn from it. It saved my ass in snow once, when I hit an unexpected wall of snow at like 45 mph. In fact the car supernaturally straightening itself was so uncanny I'll never forget it.

I'd want an ESP that intervenes when you're going to lose it, but not when a simple steering correction or throttle adjustment can right the car. I'm not sure how the R is tuned, I read mixed reports.

Other than that turn at NH Speedway, and a few hairy moments with instructors driving my car, I didn't have a lot of events requiring ESP, since the goal was to drive clean and smooth.

PS NH Speedway, I think I drove it 2 or 3 events - it's great for novices but gets old quick.

[Dawg90]

A bit hypocritical of a statement there

I've probably sucked more dicks than all your wives/girlfriends combined, but a lot of you folks in the R forum act like a bunch of immature pansies a lot of the times

You lost me.

[emulous]

You lost me.

You don't think the consumer should have to take the liability for pulling the ESP/ABS fuse, but yet you think VW should take the liability for offering a fully defeatable ESP.

[18bora.]

I bet this guy would've loved to have the R's ESP on his EVO. Warning: a few F* Bombs in the vid

[b-R-ad]

I liked the review but what it misses is that the ESP is not the end all on what car to buy. Is it frustrating for those who want to track their car?...sure, but how often are you on the track? If the review is just about track cars, then by full means, buy the Evo. For those of us who want a fun daily driver, give me the comforts of my R over that other car (trying to be nice).

Soon, there will tuner options that allow you to disable and toggle ESP.

Honestly, I don't care how fast or good the Evo is on the track...it is a gawd awful daily, let alone paying $45K for one.

Of course this is only MY opinion...I'm sure there are plenty who enjoy it.

[VAG-Voyeur]

A bit hypocritical of a statement there

I've probably sucked more dicks than all your wives/girlfriends combined, but a lot of you folks in the R forum act like a bunch of immature pansies a lot of the times

So.....got plans this weekend? I think I can help you out with your hobby there.

More on topic, I agree that the R should have the option of being fully disabled. Some kind of process to fully disable it like holding down a button for 5 seconds which would make a legal disclaimer pop up on the touchscreen display. That should be enough to clear VWoA of any legal backlash when someone puts their R into a wall but allow buyers of a nearly $40k performance vehicle to drive their car like all the other relevant cars in it's class.

Having said that, I firmly believe that the majority of those clamoring loudly to have ESC shut off are probably the ones that are benefitting the most from not being able to shut it off.

[keihin]

I bet this guy would've loved to have the R's ESP on his EVO. Warning: a few F* Bombs in the vid

I'm not sure stability control would have helped this guy.

You know what would have helped? Not driving too fast for the traction and visibility conditions.

[TechEd]

Regarding the Golf R ESC rubbish in the video, I have to ask: Since when has “sideways craziness” started being tolerated as part of high performance driving technique? For serious drivers, the fun in driving is rooted in a singular, highly-personal challenge of learning, practicing and perfecting classic high performance /racing techniques in a manner that is as smooth as possible. As such, the Streets of Willow portion of the video is 180 degrees from this reality. It’s nothing more than contrived pandering to an impressionable, juvenile audience living in a world of self-righteous fantasies. The on air (lack of) talent failing miserably with a hammed-up, over-the-top impersonation of a Jeremy Clarkson with California DNA validates this. The first thought that came to mind watching it was a South Park parody of Fox News. But, I suppose, applying the two strategies above makes complete sense because fantasy land is where the big ad revenue pools are.

I wouldn’t normally have a problem with the Streets portion of the video (or similar oversimplified, polarized commentary) if it, under the disingenuous veil of a serious narrative, did not diminish the target audience’s ability to think for themselves or apply critical thinking skills. Infotainment recipes that appeal to those who would rather live vicariously through the opinions and perceptions of others are problematic for the larger scene because ratios of 10g “tainmnent” and 0.5g “info” only worsens the growing problem of misinformation and mischaracterization on the internet. Here are two examples: Anyone who regularly participates in typical HPDE in North America or Europe knows that, while organizers will initially tolerate newbies participating with All Season tires fitted, the safer and saner norm is to use dedicated, higher grip EPS or R-Comp tires. That Golf R in the video was shod with the standard Pirelli A/S (which in one shot are obviously abused). Also, comments like “...those a-hole engineers in Germany” are clearly divisive, and are successful only in perpetuating the pied piper brand personality of the on-air (lack of) talent. That this trend of capricious frivolity and polarized bandwagon-riding has hijacked serious driving-based auto enthusiasm makes me puke. This could eventually dilute learning to appreciate a car as a high performance driving tool and take pride in learning about vehicle handling dynamics and mechanics, and minimize perfecting high performance driving in a manner that unique to their particular car (as is the case with Golf R ). The point is, let's not allow this nonsense get out of hand, otherwise we'll end up a scene similar to that suggested by the movie Idiocracy.

There was so, so much more to comment on in terms of the Golf R driving dynamics, like the improved Haldex function, the steering precision, the lift-throttle tuck in and overall handling balance, but no. All we got was a silly out of context rant that, unfortunately, sets an inappropriate tone for those who seriously want to start participating in HPDE. I could go on about the on-air talent's driving ...missing apexes and crossing arms over all-formula-car-race-driver-like on a production sedan with lot's of available steering lock? Seriously? I also smelled an attempt to apply WOT with some serious steering angle still dialed in ...an absolute no no on any production-based AWD chassis on a/s tires. It's astonishing that Jean Jennings and MT “approved this video” for airing. This issue, due to it's complexity and variability, does not warrant "taking sides". Why on earth does everyone keep trying to stake out ground?

The above really saddens and angers me as a HPDE, autocross and road race instructor, because I’ve seen the trend defined above worsen every year at our local club spring schools. In recent years it has ticked up sharply in proportion to the popularity of drifting, Top Gear/Fifth Gear, the Ken Block video and embracing irreverent auto commentary and misinformation on the internet. As an instructor, I see so, so much in the way of stifled potential in young people entering the sport because they are encumbered by living vicariously through the opinions and perceptions of others. This is a huge problem for those of us who want to attract more people to the sport, especially sanctioned autocross and road racing. All-too-often newbies will seek out and show up with what they thought was a darling car for a class, either stock or especially with modifications they think make them faster. After they are beaten severely by a seasoned competitor, often in a stock class, they come to realize that they need to work on learning and developing skills, and, well ...that’s not fun. And we never see them again.

The fact of the matter here is, and you’ve heard it from me before, that everyone’s results and experiences with un-switchable Conti-Teves ESC on VWs for track use WILL BE DIFFERENT. This is due entirely and unequivocally due to the level of driver skill, driver attitude and the tires fitted ...with the latter two clearly validated via the video. In some cases (mostly in a competitive nature), with some drivers, on some tires (again, mostly with some R-Comps and all slicks on chassis with higher wheel rates) it makes absolute sense to be able to disable the ESC. While EPS and some R-Comp tires driven with patience and skill remain the best choice to minimize ESC events, some tracks with abrupt elevation changes or high speed transition elements will need extra effort on the part of the driver to work with the system. As mentioned by Tailwagger, in modern times this is no different a challenge for a newbie driver than learning and practicing about the broad scope of driving input dynamics needed for HPDE or racing. You're more likely to be slow due to fundamental driving errors than being slow due to an ESC event. This perception crutch is a real problem because many people with perceived (not real) driving skills wrongly use these contexts and rationale to demand they be able to disable the ESC on their street version with a/s tires! In this, it’s completely unfair to throw a demonized a blanket over the issue and declare oneself a victim of an evil OEM and Importer? Jeez… is thinking for oneself and applying critical thinking skills totally dead?

Sadly, in everything that comes our way these days, it seems our penchant to embrace polarization and cognitive dissonance gets the better of us, and the ESC topic is not immune.

For those interested in breaking out of the vacuum, let’s (yet one more time...) look at some facts, context and rationale as they pertain to the pros and cons of ESC for real track and autocross use in the real (not fantasy) world.

1. Most Golf R owners are hard-pressed to rent a track for a day or afternoon (ballbark $1,500 - $4,000, plus insurance, plus stand-by ambulance in some cases). Whether it’s for us or a small group of friends to attempt/fail to engage in sideways craziness on tires inappropriate for track use is irrelevant because this is mostly a fantasy scenario. Aspiring to do it is unrealistic because it’s only a reality for auto enthu media or OEMs/OEM Tier 1 suppliers. For the 0.01% that can afford this, that want to abuse the a/s tires on their Golf R, well …Sorry Charlie, you bought the wrong car.

It’s also likely that APR will not help you unless the car is not registered for road use and trailered to the track. Despite their current teasing, for liability reasons, the FMVSS 126 “Do not harm” provision, and especially what I understand is a gentlemen’s agreement made during the 2010 Gran Am ST season, APR is between a rock and hard place on making an ESC solution public. Don’t hold your breath, unless you want to look like a Smurf.

2. During most real world HPDEs, if you are witnessed to consciously make attempts to slide your car or otherwise overdrive it’s tractive limits, you’ll be called in and given a warning. If you persist, or should you duplicate Jason’s smoky spin in the Mitsu, you’ll be asked to leave and your name will be noted for future events. If it's an event where I'm lead instructor, I'll also confiscate your stopwatch.

3. Concerning the question about what is faster in overall terms for lap times, the fact remains that a driving style or chassis setup that results in persistent oversteer is a fast way to set a slow time. As an endurance road racing crew chief, my stopwatch and data acquisition never lied to me. Always validated by the clock, any driver feedback on a chassis that was loose on neutral to trailing throttle was addressed immediately, which was often hard to accomplish due to diminished fuel loads over a stint.

4. If Point 3 were not true, then all the established high performance driving schools like Bondurant, Jim Russell, Evolution Autocross etc., would teach oversteer-based curriculum. They do not, nor do I, because it’s slow and dangerous.

And within Point 4 lies the irrefutable truth, that I’ve validated both as an r&d driver and autocross competitor. Hear me now und believe me later: Should anyone taking their Golf R to a track learn, practice and perfect the smooth, use all-the road, late apex, NO on-off-switch throttle on cranked steering, tire load transfer-vigilant driving style that is absolutely necessary for a Golf R on a dedicated EPS or R-Comps, they’ll forget the car is equipped with non-switchable ESC in the first place. Then, what little in the way of track-dependent or driver style circumstances that result in ESC events become good barometers of driving errors, and this is due to the inherent, very high level of grip using such tires in the first place. Not a bad thing for those committed to stem the epidemic of drivers disassociating themselves from the performance capabilities of their cars.

5. I posted identical, class winning time trail times at Waterford Hills in both high level off ESC and non-switchable ESC Jettas (245-40-17 Kumho XS on Enkei RPFi) . The initial ESC events in the non-switchable car helped me improve my driving to the point where no ESC events occurred at all.

Of course, it’s impossible for every single US Golf R driver to accomplish this, ….hence that fact that “everyone’s result will be different. So please stop the demonizing bandwagon right here, right now.

In light of the above rationale, that some see non-switchable ESC as so demonic as to cancel an order only shows me how far the combination of fantasy and cognitive dissonance can perpetuate rubbish misinformation.

FWIW, instead of shooting me (the messenger) or, on the other hand aspire to be Jeremy Clarkston with California DNA, perhaps a brief, real world comment from a real world SCCA National autocross champion might help to establish some real world context here. He’s says the ESC is “probably the best I’ve ever driven...”, (which echoes my sentiment). This says a lot considering he's a RWD guy and how he struggled with heat affecting his Mustang’s ECM prior to his win in last year’s Nationals. While the link below pertains to a 12 GTI owner seeking bar vs. damper advice for stock class autox, the Conti-Teves system is essentially identical to that in the Golf R:

Sam Strano – Multiple SCCA F-Stock Champion and 2012 GTI owner in SCCAForums.

Damn, you guys are killing me. I’m offline indefinitely now to focus on the four hour drive to the race shop in real world Toronto, to get the real world engine and real world transmission installed in our real world SpeedWerks Racing Corrado GT3 car prior to our first CASC Ontario Region race.

Nonetheless, have fun arguing until 3 in the morning ...whether you like it or not, or agree with it or not, all the juvenile postulating in the world won’t change the fact that everyone’s results will be different. A pragmatic and fact-based assessment for everyone, everywhere is not possible until such time that real Golf R owners on appropriate tires experience first hand for themselves what those results will be. An then, the discussion has to be relative to the 180 and 90 and 45 degree experiences of others on their tracks, with their cars, on their tires, with their fuel loads driven with their skills, and we can all agree that the scope here is, and remains huge....

Happy Easter!!!

[VAG-Voyeur]

Don’t hold your breath, unless you want to look like a Smurf.

I don't feel that strongly about the ESC, but I couldn't resist putting this image in

[Dawg90]

You don't think the consumer should have to take the liability for pulling the ESP/ABS fuse, but yet you think VW should take the liability for offering a fully defeatable ESP.

Yes, exactly. If VW wants to compete with the likes of BMW, they need to get in the game. They're the ones making profit off us, not the other way around.

[Dawg90]

I bet this guy would've loved to have the R's ESP on his EVO. Warning: a few F* Bombs in the vid

Why, he avoided an accident without ESP, if he had ESP active, who knows, he might have hit someone, with the car adding inputs to his.

[BRSomm]

Why, he avoided an accident without ESP, if he had ESP active, who knows, he might have hit someone, with the car adding inputs to his.

This comment shows a lack of understanding of what ESP does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR1SSxpKitE

At the 6 minute mark is when the relevant portion starts but it's all good.

[Dawg90]

This comment shows a lack of understanding of what ESP does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR1SSxpKitE

At the 6 minute mark is when the relevant portion starts but it's all good.

I've had ESP come on in snow, I know what it does. It definitely will affect you as a driver - so if this EVO driver had been experiencing ESP interaction, who knows if he would have still been able to dodge that car as well as he did.

Of course the EVO has so much computer interaction it's probably fair to say the computer helped him dodge that car.

[b-R-ad]

This comment shows a lack of understanding of what ESP does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR1SSxpKitE

At the 6 minute mark is when the relevant portion starts but it's all good.

I for one am happy to have ESC/ESP living in Michigan with winter roads and ****ty Michigan drivers (you would think that people who live in snow states would know how to drive, but every snow storm, one can expect to see a dozen drivers in the ditch on any drive). I wish everyone else had mandatory ESC on their cars...maybe a few less accidents and ditches would occur.

Several years ago, my wife and I encountered a very similar scenario to the EVO driver on the snowy highway. Somehow I managed to avoid spinning cars going in every direction as we came upon a white out in the Upper peninsula driving her 91 Jetta. It's a scary feeling dodging a multi-car pile up, but somehow I did it...the funny thing is, after we came through the carnage unscathed...I had stalled out the car. I somehow managed to avoid an accident while coasting...

I blame Ridge Racer for the "drift" mentality that everyone feels they need to have in their "performance" car. A whole new era of street racing, drifting, movie making madness all started by a simple video game back in the 90's. (hell of a fun game though on the original PS)

Ultimately, I do wish there was a driver option to disable ESC on our R's, but again the fact that there isn't certainly isn't enough of a reason not to buy it. If you are truly buying your R to track it on a regular basis...Looking elsewhere is probably a good idea, but then again, if you are buying your R to track it on a regular basis, you are probably a good enough driver to adapt and the ESC probably wont be an issue for you.

[Stereodude]

Doesn't matter that in any test, holding the brake pedal down and trying to accelerate means that you stop, they knew that the problem wasn't them.

I don't want to sidetrack the thread, but that's not exactly true. If you bury the pedal in the floor with cool brakes and hold them there until stopped with the throttle is wide open you will stop. However, if you've been riding the brakes trying to keep the car at speed you'll overheat them, glaze the pads, and when you finally bury them in the floor to stop the car the brakes may not be able be able to do so.

[Disarm99]

that video makes me want to buy evo for its manooverability, in fact i think i will

[JLCVDUB]

Quite possibly one of TechEds best posts. Lol....

Funny, because as you started to describe The SCCA driver in question, I knew you were talking about Sam Strano. Strano sure does know what he's talking about, and even sells his own suspension parts.. Although I'm not sure he sells anything for our market
specifically.


Sent from my iPhone 4S using Tapatalk

[Tailwagger]

Then we are clearly pushing to different limits. With dry tarmac and properly inflated stock tires I can get ESP kicking in on corner exit almost at will. I could whip my e-penis out as well and give you the run down of my experience but I don't see how it's relevant. Even a rookie driver on a slower auto-x course would be able to get ESP to put the brakes on during a hot corner exit.

I never said I couldn't make it happen. I've said I can drive the car at near the limit of adhesion with out making it happen and do so consistency with ease. Maybe there's just a little more to learn eh?

[BlazinVR]

Happy Easter!!!

question: don't you think the automatic braking is a little excessive? back when i had a 2001 GTI VR6, ASR was PERFECT and it didn't do any automatic braking through hard turns - just fuel cut off.

[Tailwagger]

Ok. I went out early this morning for an extended drive and decided to spend some time ESP off attempting to induce what others are experiencing. I think I now have a better idea of what TechEd is preaching and why some are moaning.

Conditions were cool and constant with temps 39-41F. Tires were brand new MichiSS, which as an aside, despite the lack of road temp, utterly transform the car. I knew the Dumbslops were bad, but tsk, tsk VW for putting such crap on our cars, or at least not making the summer tire option real. The stock rubber really does dull the car to a point where its easy to think its chassis advantages over other Golfs, let alone its so-called Asian competitors, are lackluster. Those test driving this car to compare it against others arriving on these shores with real tires, you really need to take this flaw into account.

Anyhoo, I really think we should stop referring to ESP, generically defined by individual wheel braking, as a big problem. When individual wheel braking does intrude, more on that later, it is very brief, a slight twitch and readjustment at the rear and done. The annoyance owners are experiencing has got absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with braking individual wheels, its has to do with the system subsequently cutting power for a ridiculous amount of time when the car its completely and utterly stable and under control. So before we condemn or laud ESP in its entirety, I think its important to recognize that it is comprised of at least two aspects. Phase one is the "I dont like your driving input as compared to the yaw of the car so I'm applying the inside rear brake" phase. Let call it RTS for Right The Ship. This can be helpful, but a little annoying if you know things were in fact under control. Phase two, however, is going to the penalty box for perceived bad behavior. This is a seemingly, unnecessarily prolonged traction control event achieved by cutting power. Once there the car steadfastly refuses to obey any requests for power. After you've served out your penalty, you're free to go back out and play on the ice. Lets call this PBM for the Penalty Box Moment. Its important to note that the PBM is optional, it doesn't necessarily follow every time there is an RTS event.

My first trigger of RTS was in a relative tight bumpy left-hander while on the gas relatively hard, accelerating through the apex. There was a brief flash on the instrument panel, a slight twitch in the rear of the car and in an instant it was over. The car rocketed out of the corner as if nothing ever happened. This was the behavior I expected and frankly, at that moment, I really couldn't figure out how most would even notice it let alone complain about it.

A few miles up the road, I experienced my first PBM event. This occurred in the middle of an extended on ramp. In this case, I decided to enter the corner by doing some left foot braking, foot still on throttle. I can't say for sure if there was even a moment's RTS in this (I was trailing off the brake) but for a good two seconds or so post apex as I moved to the throttle, with the car utterly stable, the nannies steadfastly refused to acknowledge any command for more power. Aha, this clearly is what some people are complaining about!

I duplicated this behavior at the next exit and on some subsequent back road corners. What's interesting is that by the end of my drive, either unconsciously I was getting better at working around all this or something was adjusting in the algorithm as the behavior was becoming harder to induce. Now the street is not the track and I'm not so full of myself to go out on public roads, on new tires, well outside their optimal temp range, in a still as yet relatively unfamiliar car to try to drive 11/10ths just to preach to you blokes. There's a chance I will get an opportunity to do a track session in this car in a week or two. If so, I will follow up. But I do feel I was driving sufficiently hard enough (and occasionally intentionally stupid enough) to come to some preliminary conclusions.

Ok so what? Well if you read and understand...

...learn, practice and perfect the smooth, use all-the road, late apex, NO on-off-switch throttle on cranked steering, tire load transfer-vigilant driving style that is absolutely necessary for a Golf R...

...what TechEd said about the best approach to driving this car, I believe it to be confirmed my observations this morning. TE has mentioned this multiple times before, but my impression is that as things stand they are perfectly setup for a new DE student, i.e. the calibrations reward Slow-In, Fast-Out driving. The electronics seem to favor straight line braking, turn-in on maintenance throttle, followed by accelerating through the apex. It clearly is less accommodating to those intent on trail braking deep to the apex before getting back on the throttle. And it is downright unfriendly to those who charge a corner and demonstrate the slightest lack of finesse in their attempts to scrub speed while the wheel is cranked. Do that and you'll spend most of the game cursing in the penalty box. Finally, if you were planning to do a week at Team O'Neil in this car, pull your fuse or forget about it. This car, like every other e-throttle car I've ever driven, is just not happy being left foot braked while trying to maintain boost with the right.

These are very preliminary observations from a few dozen corners, but AFAICT, if you do go to a DE or even on road, and you find to your dismay on corner exit that power is cut, the likely first cause is your corner entry speed was too high and as you added steering lock you were slowing into the apex. If you give up a smidge of entry speed and get back on the gas earlier, its my belief that you're far more likely to mitigate this behavior. Or to put it more simply, in general if you are slowing at or near the apex and RTS engages, PBM will follow. If OTOH, you are accelerating through the apex when RTS engages, the ref is looking the other way and you're free to skate off into the distance as fast as you like.

Regardless, the problem isnt with RTS, its with PBM. So lets stop blaming the stability portion of this system as bad. Its the non-defeatable traction control aspect that sucks, its overly intrusive and it really is what we or at least I'd like to see removed. Its supposed to be the thing that we turned off in the first place when we pressed the button. The individual wheel braking is really a non-issue and is, IMO, exactly what I found it to be, a teaching moment. I honestly believe 97% of all drivers would never notice ESP at all if it werent for PBM. So lets keep the baby and lose the bath water.

[Gyntry]

I personally love me some ESC living in Wisconsin with our winters. I also do participate in spirited driving here and there, and don't plan to track my Golf R.

All that being said, I would love to see this defeatable for one simple thing... Drifting around or otherwise messing around in the snow... In an open lot or elsewhere - not on the roads. On the roads, like I said, I love it.

My two pennies.

[_leo_]

I wish they would do a test like this with a Canadian Golf R because my car can turn off the esp

is it true can our canadian golf rs turn ecs off completely? holy crap on a cracker, we finally get an R and we can do better things then the US spec can

ps: i get my R this week trading in my 07 GTI for it

[Dawg90]

Regardless, the problem isnt with RTS, its with PBM. So lets stop blaming the stability portion of this system as bad. Its the non-defeatable traction control aspect that sucks, its overly intrusive and it really is what we or at least I'd like to see removed. Its supposed to be the thing that we turned off in the first place when we pressed the button.

So the single press of ESP button doesn't disable traction control (throttle cutoff)? That's how it works on my 330, with single press, only the braking system is still active, it will never cut throttle.

So what does the single press disable?

[_leo_]

I bet this guy would've loved to have the R's ESP on his EVO. Warning: a few F* Bombs in the vid

whats impressive is that guy was able to miss hitting the van, ESP or not that same damage would have happened trying to avoid, that was the onyl place to go and that thing was not stopping on the road

[Wermz]

I'm not sure stability control would have helped this guy.

You know what would have helped? Not driving too fast for the traction and visibility conditions.

Why haven't more people said this? He was simply driving too fast for near white out conditions. Then they stupidly complained about how everybody was stopped in the middle of the road (yes, of course they were, there was just an accident).

[GTIVRon]

....In this case, I decided to enter the corner by doing some left foot braking, foot still on throttle. I can't say for sure if there was even a moment's RTS in this (I was trailing off the brake) but for a good two seconds or so post apex as I moved to the throttle, with the car utterly stable, the nannies steadfastly refused to acknowledge any command for more power. Aha, this clearly is what some people are complaining about!

Maybe that's because if you try to "go" and "slow" at the same time the car is probably thinking "what the **** is this idiot trying to do" and cutting the fuel.

I think most cars for the past 10 years will cut fuel if you are on the brakes while accelerating. (Have had to educate plenty of two-footed automatic car drivers about this. That there is nothing wrong the car, that big pedal simply isn't a damn foot rest)

[keithR32]

Overall great job EVO driver

[Tailwagger]

Maybe that's because if you try to "go" and "slow" at the same time the car is probably thinking "what the **** is this idiot trying to do" and cutting the fuel.

I think most cars for the past 10 years will cut fuel if you are on the brakes while accelerating. (Have had to educate plenty of two-footed automatic car drivers about this. That there is nothing wrong the car, that big pedal simply isn't a damn foot rest)

As I remarked at the bottom of my previous post, I've yet to meet a road car with e-throttle that will allow you to do true LFBing, so I wasn't surprised it didn't work. Slight mod to what your saying though for precision. I wasn't accelerating, I was slowing via LBF, but trying to maintain RPM (and hence boost) with the right foot. The surprise was that once ESP decided, as you put it, that I was being an idiot, despite having taken my foot off brake, increasing the throttle was prevented by the system for a significantly long period, I'd guess a couple of hundred feet or a pair of seconds. Hence, my term Penalty Box Moment.

So the single press of ESP button doesn't disable traction control... So what does the single press disable?

Thats a damn good question. I really cant say yet. From my limited testing and given how much moaning is gong on about ESP, its pretty clear that the ability to cut throttle is still active regardless of the button being pressed. Its impossible for me in a few short minutes on public roads to fully know exactly what will or will not trigger the TC/ASR component of ESP, but as I wrote in my previous post I've created circumstances where the system, even though it should be 'turned off', decides that its had enough and will not allow you to throttle up. Once it decides to cut power you dont get it back no matter how well behaved you are for what seems like an eternity. But equally, I have manufactured circumstances where I have absolutely seen ESP engage but power simply was not interrupted (or if it was only for a split second while the light was on). As I speculated in my original post, it seems to have something to do with whether your accelerating or decelerating at the time esp decides to intervene, but that is just a guess from a fairly limited sample set.

Now again, I never noticed this until I went out and intentionally tried to induce it. I still believe a good driver will simply drive around it. On the way home this evening, I went round my daily off ramp for the first time on the MSports, tires squealing, front end right on the verge of giving up and... nothing. I was able to lightly saw the wheel and throttle steer to make the corrections necessary to keep the car smoothly on line without any of the nannies complaining in the least. No lights, no power cut, just throttled straight out of the corner at 'track out' with no intervention whatsoever.

Nevertheless, I find myself a lot closer to siding with those who are outraged about the current implementation. On one hand non-defeatable ESP, while it prevents sideways snow rallying, isn't that much of an imposition. And while I might prefer to be able to fully defeat it, its a fact of life that any idiot with the money can buy this car (and easily pump it up to how many HP?), so I get why things are the way they are. But cutting the power even though TC/ASR is disabled, particularly for an excessive period well past the time when the car is clearly stable and under control is undeniably irritating, seemingly unnecessary and, I'm beginning to believe, worthy of complaint.

One final thought. I really dont recall anyone driving the Euro version complaining. Its only in these recent reviews and among US owners that this tirade has emerged. It is possible, perhaps even likely that this behavior is actually a bug in the US version of the software!

[Charlie84]

Nevertheless, I find myself a lot closer to siding with those who are outraged about the current implementation. On one hand non-defeatable ESP, while it prevents sideways snow rallying, isn't that much of an imposition. And while I might prefer to be able to fully defeat it, its a fact of life that any idiot with the money can buy this car (and easily pump it up to how many HP?), so I get why things are the way they are. But cutting the power even though TC/ASR is disabled, particularly for an excessive period well past the time when the car is clearly stable and under control is undeniably irritating, seemingly unnecessary and, I'm beginning to believe, worthy of complaint.

It is true that any idiot with enough money can buy one of these cars. But the car in question is an AWD Golf --hardly a "widow-maker" of an automobile. In the hands of an average driver, benign understeer sets in as it does in virtually all contemporary cars: early and often. As noted here and elsewhere, there are many new cars for sale that are far more twitchy and unstable. Yet, other manufacturers still seem to feel alright with allowing for a complete disabling of the traction & stability control programs.

There's a chance I will get an opportunity to do a track session in this car in a week or two. If so, I will follow up.

Please do. If the car is always correcting your mistakes, I'm not sure how one is supposed to learn from these "teaching moments" imposed by the nannies. One the one hand, I guess it's good that the "RTS" moments are relatively short and imperceptible. On the other hand, if most people aren't even going to notice these barely-perceptible course-corrections, how are they going to identify the behaviors they shouldn't be repeating?

One of the most instructive driving lessons I've had was learning to throttle-balance/adjust my old 318i (sans traction control) on a wet skid pad. As far as I can tell from peoples' descriptions here, such an exercise would be impossible with a Golf R.

[Dawg90]

As I remarked at the bottom of my previous post, I've yet to meet a road car with e-throttle that will allow you to do true LFBing, so I wasn't surprised it didn't work. Slight mod to what your saying though for precision. I wasn't accelerating, I was slowing via LBF, but trying to maintain RPM (and hence boost) with the right foot.

Does it let you heel and toe? Maybe since the clutch is disengaged the computer thinks that's ok.

[MissUnderstood]

BAHAHA I thought home boy was gunna cry!

[Tailwagger]

One of the most instructive driving lessons I've had was learning to throttle-balance/adjust my old 318i (sans traction control) on a wet skid pad. As far as I can tell from peoples' descriptions here, such an exercise would be impossible with a Golf R.

I would strongly concur that skid pads are a terrific training tool. I haven't specifically driven a wet skid pad in the car, but I seriously doubt that ESP would interfere noticeably in any way at all. You can adjust line in an R with the throttle. Having driven a number of constant radius off ramps at speed with no ESP intervention whatsoever, I have no reason to believe that a skip pad would be any different.

Does it let you heel and toe? Maybe since the clutch is disengaged the computer thinks that's ok.

H&T is no problem. It seems more likely to me that H&T would be immune from PBM because typically we do it in a straight line.

[brandonekingatl]

no more complaining about the ESP, like we thought this would really take long for someone to figure out...



Originally Posted by Tyrol Mike
I have verified that the below VAGCOM coding procedure(posted in another thread), works to disable the 2nd stage of the traction control:

"If anyone still interested, the ESP disable for the Golf 6 R can be done by the adjustment channel 9 in steering control unit (address word 44) turn to off (from 0 to 1). In this case, as it were recoded to the old power steering which the steering angle sensor had in the steering wheel. The steering angle is no longer sent to the CAN bus and the ESP control unit, this information is not longer available. Makes sense only for the track, must also be coded using a diagnostic tester back again because the adjustment even with ignition off / on will remain."

"Adjustment channel 9 put in power steering control unit to 1, ESP is permanently off. ABS and Co is retained."

So anybody with a VAG-COM feel like trying out and reporting what happens changing the value for:

- 44 "Steering Assist":......Adaptation channel 09 - Steering Angle Sensor.