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    Thread: When innocent taxpayers are forced to 'invest' in defective technology

    1. Forum Sponsor Brendan@bwalkauto's Avatar
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      04-06-2012 08:27 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      A bunch of knee-jerk idiots against rational people? I dunno.
      Sounds about right to me.
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      04-06-2012 08:28 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      A bunch of knee-jerk idiots against rational people? I dunno.
      So it is right V left?

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      04-06-2012 08:31 PM #28
      You tards wanna debate politics, have a blast. I'm out.

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      04-06-2012 08:32 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by David802 View Post
      So it is right V left?
      You mean left V right. Right?

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      04-06-2012 08:46 PM #30
      I thought posting political rants in TCL was a banable offense?
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    6. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      04-06-2012 09:37 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      I think a lot of people are OK with funding/bailing out major players that know what they're doing like GM and Chrysler. It's when taxpayer money is playing fast and loose in speculation and penny stocks and startup companies that it doesn't make sense. That's just plain gambling at that point because the companies have no track record and likelihood of success beyond a pure gamble.

      Investing in huge companies = OK
      Investing in tiny startups = High Risk / NOT OK
      I strongly disagree. Certainly homework should be done and we should make sure we aren't investing in frauds and only investing in things that are useful, but the whole point of a government loan is to back something that is too high risk to get a loan, yet too important and potentially useful to leave to the free market.

      If it was a sure thing, they wouldn't need government loans because investors would be lining up.

      Research and development is a risk, often a large risk, of money. Failure is a huge, and important part of science because it rules something out. If we were things worried about losing money, we wouldn't have the polio vaccine or the internet.

      Most of this is stuff that should have gotten grants, but we're avoiding trade regulations or fear that we might seem even slightly less than distrustful of the free market.
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    7. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      04-06-2012 09:54 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      I strongly disagree. Certainly homework should be done and we should make sure we aren't investing in frauds and only investing in things that are useful, but the whole point of a government loan is to back something that is too high risk to get a loan, yet too important and potentially useful to leave to the free market.

      If it was a sure thing, they wouldn't need government loans because investors would be lining up.

      Research and development is a risk, often a large risk, of money. Failure is a huge, and important part of science because it rules something out. If we were things worried about losing money, we wouldn't have the polio vaccine or the internet.

      Most of this is stuff that should have gotten grants, but we're avoiding trade regulations or fear that we might seem even slightly less than distrustful of the free market.
      Let's find a common ground then. Agree that any technological breakthrough that is had by government money is not eligible for an exclusive patent. Instead, the technology is available to all, since it was paid for by all. Say - a 3 year patent instead of a regular 17 year patent? Otherwise the government is putting up all the money and all the risk, but the only ones who stand to gain are the ones running the company. Either denial of patentability or at least a dramatically shortened patent life would let everyone benefit from the taxpayer sponsored advance in technology. Agree?

      Alternately, don't even send the grants to private startup companies. Send them to labs run by universities. Some of the best and brightest minds in the nation are up and coming in the universities. BLS stats prove that higher education leads to higher productivity and income. Create an incentive to stay in college by sending that government money to university labs where, again, the breakthroughs can be made for credit and bragging rights, but not patentable. That way the technology is then free for use to all and the whole nation benefits. Who can argue against spending more on education?
      Last edited by AZGolf; 04-06-2012 at 09:56 PM.

    8. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      04-06-2012 09:56 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Let's find a common ground then. Agree that any technological breakthrough that is had by government money is not eligible for an exclusive patent. Instead, the technology is available to all, since it was paid for by all. Say - a 3 year patent instead of a regular 17 year patent? Otherwise the government is putting up all the money and all the risk, but the only ones who stand to gain are the ones running the company. Either denial of patentability or at least a dramatically shortened patent life would let everyone benefit from the taxpayer sponsored advance in technology. Agree?
      I completely agree, particularly if it is a grant.
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    9. 04-06-2012 10:01 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      You tards wanna debate politics, have a blast. I'm out.
      For sure, If I had a nickle for every person that whined about Fox News....well you know the rest. I'm out.

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      04-06-2012 10:26 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Iroczgirl View Post
      The government has their hands in everything. Best get used to it.
      it'll collapse under its own weight, I will love it. just wait until the recipient class has no one to steal money from..ah it would be sooooooooo nice, have all the productive people go john galt lol.

      btw I do like the volt but I think gm shouldve went bankrupt and there shouldnt be any subsidies for buying "green eco-schit" if you like it buy it.
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      04-06-2012 10:29 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      I strongly disagree. Certainly homework should be done and we should make sure we aren't investing in frauds and only investing in things that are useful, but the whole point of a government loan is to back something that is too high risk to get a loan, yet too important and potentially useful to leave to the free market.
      so nothing gets invented unless government funds it? you are probably one of those foaming at the mouth about funding stemcell research..oh its not happening unless government funds it.
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      04-06-2012 10:42 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by SgtArky View Post
      so nothing gets invented unless government funds it?
      Yeah, that's totally what he said.

      Try: government funding has aided many technological and scientific advances (which, you know, is kind of needed to keep the nation competitive in such fields). There's not enough private sector capital to handle all of that -- period. Not every investment is going to be a rousing success. To expect otherwise is foolish (as is the notion some of you seem to have that the government is supposed to be perfect and never, ever be wrong). They're only human (and you can stuff the snarky/sarcastic retort to that).
      Everybody's dying, bitch; let's get you some fruit.

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      04-06-2012 11:08 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by SgtArky View Post
      so nothing gets invented unless government funds it? you are probably one of those foaming at the mouth about funding stemcell research..oh its not happening unless government funds it.
      Clearly reading isn't your forte.
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      04-06-2012 11:16 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by Brendan@bwalkauto View Post
      I drove a VW today at work. I'd like to thank the German Tax Payer for subsidizing that company. Touareg Hybrids are pretty nice, and the warm fuzzies I felt while driving the hybrid was actually the fingers of all of the German tax payers trying to reach into my wallet to get their money back.
      lol, thats so appropriate since we know the german tax payer def did invest in defective technology on this one. No arguing that!

      Best part is tho, they will get their money back because itll need parts outta warranty eventually

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      04-06-2012 11:30 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by JLJetta View Post
      The process of picking winners and losers only invites appearance of cronyism at best and outright corruption at worst. Let private investors who can best afford to take the risks decide which corporate management and technological innovation holds the most promise.

      Meanwhile, sales of the Toyota Prius continue to climb.
      The current theme on Wall Street, is get in, make a **** ton of money, and get out. This is not conducive to long term investment. I hate to tell you this, but the "free-market" is profoundly flawed. Its not the panacea that you think it is, its actually poison. If you dont believe me just study the history of capitalism for about 30 seconds.

    16. 04-07-2012 12:41 AM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by hardcore4life View Post
      Funding two wars, rebuilding iraq and giving tax breaks to countries that shipped jobs to other countries with our tax dollars makes so much sense but helping out a company that provide 70% jobs in this country is waste of money, love the republicans they are so pro american and patriotic but hate American companies and jobs, if it was up to the repos we would all work for China
      Both parties are fully compromised and owned by "globalist" financial entities - those living in the con of the false "left - right paradigm" are just lost as to the realities of the world. Our govt does a terrible job of deciding what should be funded and why, because they almost never fund R&D for honorable intentions - there is almost always some back door agenda to the selected funding...sad to say.

      This is the biggest problem we and the rest of the central banking manipulated world have to be thinking about - http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...-to-fail-banks

      The criminal syndicate "privately owned" federal reserve has (up through July 2010) passed out the back door over 16 TRILLION to banks - many outside the US. Who knows how much they have pumped out the back door since July 2010 - very destructive activities going on and ALL on the backs of the US Taxpayers.

      If any of you are in love with the current administration or the hierarchy of the democrat/republican parties you have been duped to no end - you drank the kool-aid and they own you in more ways then you will ever imagine. Now Ron Paul, he "gets it" and has been a rare voice trying to get the manipulated masses to right the ship - so far there is not enough citizens "awake" to what is coming down the pipe next - so we will get more of the same and that will never correct the core structural problems taking down this country.

    17. 04-07-2012 12:57 AM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by AeroBuilders View Post
      Both parties are fully compromised and owned by "globalist" financial entities - those living in the con of the false "left - right paradigm" are just lost as to the realities of the world. Our govt does a terrible job of deciding what should be funded and why, because they almost never fund R&D for honorable intentions - there is almost always some back door agenda to the selected funding...sad to say.

      This is the biggest problem we and the rest of the central banking manipulated world have to be thinking about - http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...-to-fail-banks

      The criminal syndicate "privately owned" federal reserve has (up through July 2010) passed out the back door over 16 TRILLION to banks - many outside the US. Who knows how much they have pumped out the back door since July 2010 - very destructive activities going on and ALL on the backs of the US Taxpayers.

      If any of you are in love with the current administration or the hierarchy of the democrat/republican parties you have been duped to no end - you drank the kool-aid and they own you in more ways then you will ever imagine. Now Ron Paul, he "gets it" and has been a rare voice trying to get the manipulated masses to right the ship - so far there is not enough citizens "awake" to what is coming down the pipe next - so we will get more of the same and that will never correct the core structural problems taking down this country.
      If you think one figure head( Ron Paul) can make a difference, you are severely mistaken. Ron Paul's ideas would work great under a dictatorship where he has absolute power. But with a congress and senate and thousands of foot soldiers, you'd get frustrated beyond belief. Elected officials should be only able to serve a set amount of time and election cycles should not last more than 8 weeks from start to finish.

    18. 04-07-2012 01:23 AM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by SgtArky View Post
      so nothing gets invented unless government funds it? you are probably one of those foaming at the mouth about funding stemcell research..oh its not happening unless government funds it.
      When talking about research spending, you have to distinguish between basic and applied research. Government tends to fund basic research and private industry tends to fund applied research.

      Basic research is science research done for its own sake. Discovering natural phenomena and the like to expand the frontiers of knowledge. Private industry doesn't do much of this anymore. It's clear why—basic research is costly and the results may never be commercialized. More importantly, the knowledge that comes from basic research can't be patented. Discovering something that exists in nature lacks the "inventive step" that a patentable invention must possess. Since anyone else can come along and use what you discovered, there isn't much incentive for private firms to spend money on basic research.

      Applied research and development is the process of bringing technology to market and adapting it for large scale production. Applied R&D is what private companies spend on research. However without basic research done beforehand, there wouldn't be any new promising technology in the pipeline to try to commercialize.

      So without government funding, you would still see innovation but it would be confined to applications of basic research that is already known. If you're adverse to the idea of the government directly funding research you can do what was done for AT&T. Monopoly status gave them enough profit to fund their own research at Bell Labs. Unfortunately, Bell Labs stopped doing basic research when deregulation caught up to them. So despite having to pay inflated prices for telephone service, we did get innovations such as the transistor and the UNIX operating system out of them.

    19. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      04-07-2012 01:44 AM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by SgtArky View Post
      btw I do like the volt but I think gm shouldve went bankrupt and there shouldnt be any subsidies for buying "green eco-schit" if you like it buy it.
      When the Germans are spending money to support VAG, the Japanese are spending money to support Toyota et. al., and the Chinese are spending money to develop their automakers, why should GM and the American makes be the only carmakers who can't rely on help from the government? Doubly so when GM's problems weren't their own fault, but a result of credit suddenly becoming unavailable?

      The long term result of what you propose is for American companies to go out of business because they're forced to play by different rules than companies from other countries. I simply don't understand how you think that wouldn't happen or would be desirable.

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      04-07-2012 01:47 AM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by uniseriate View Post
      When talking about research spending, you have to distinguish between basic and applied research. Government tends to fund basic research and private industry tends to fund applied research.

      Basic research is science research done for its own sake. Discovering natural phenomena and the like to expand the frontiers of knowledge. Private industry doesn't do much of this anymore. It's clear why—basic research is costly and the results may never be commercialized. More importantly, the knowledge that comes from basic research can't be patented. Discovering something that exists in nature lacks the "inventive step" that a patentable invention must possess. Since anyone else can come along and use what you discovered, there isn't much incentive for private firms to spend money on basic research.

      Applied research and development is the process of bringing technology to market and adapting it for large scale production. Applied R&D is what private companies spend on research. However without basic research done beforehand, there wouldn't be any new promising technology in the pipeline to try to commercialize.

      So without government funding, you would still see innovation but it would be confined to applications of basic research that is already known. If you're adverse to the idea of the government directly funding research you can do what was done for AT&T. Monopoly status gave them enough profit to fund their own research at Bell Labs. Unfortunately, Bell Labs stopped doing basic research when deregulation caught up to them. So despite having to pay inflated prices for telephone service, we did get innovations such as the transistor and the UNIX operating system out of them.
      Great post.

      Government absolutely has a role to play in developing new technologies. Same argument as above applies: the USA is a great source of innovation, but so are many other countries. If the USA must solely rely on private funding while other countries invent s*** with both private and government funded research, the USA will undoubtedly fall behind. I don't see that as desirable, I see that as adhering to a philosophy well beyond the point where that philosophy starts to make no sense.
      Last edited by Jader Pack; 04-07-2012 at 01:55 AM.

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      04-07-2012 01:52 AM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      A bunch of knee-jerk idiots against rational people? I dunno.
      it really is.
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      04-07-2012 01:57 AM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by Brendan@bwalkauto View Post
      I drove a VW today at work. I'd like to thank the German Tax Payer for subsidizing that company. Touareg Hybrids are pretty nice, and the warm fuzzies I felt while driving the hybrid was actually the fingers of all of the German tax payers trying to reach into my wallet to get their money back.
      Most definitely worth it.
      Touareg Hybrids are pretty nice, and the warm fuzzies I felt while driving the hybrid was actually the fingers of all of the German tax payers trying to reach into my wallet to get their money back. (Brendan@bwalkauto)

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      04-07-2012 02:44 AM #48
      Pssst. It's Brendan. Not on.
      Last edited by Brendan@bwalkauto; 04-07-2012 at 02:54 AM.
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      04-07-2012 07:18 AM #49
      This is entirely a political argument. Those of you who support government investing in private companies have failed to support why the government should, or has the right to do so.
      "Because Germany, Japan et al. does it" is not an argument. I think that most of us learned that we don't get bikes because Jimmy down the street just got a new bike.
      A more grown-up response is that European competition law is founded on the ideals of European integration and limitation of abuse of dominant position. European law came out of countries where the people were comfortable with consolidated power because they were accustomed to state monarchies holding absolute control.
      American anti-trust law was created with the purpose of preventing that type of consolidation of power into individual hands in order to prevent monopolization. Americans just have a different mindset for how much power they are comfortable with in the state's hands. It shows that maybe that is changing (you European-thinking TCLers you).
      "Because we waste so much money fighting wars, we might as well waste more by investing in private companies" is silly and deserves no response.
      "The government invests in Boeing, GM, etc." So what? This doesn't answer the question of whether public investment of private companies is good. How much of this investment is driven by lobbying?
      Ultimately, you could take either position because the answer comes from your personal level of comfort in the how the government spends your money (i.e. converts your money into power).

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      04-07-2012 07:49 AM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by SgtArky View Post
      it'll collapse under its own weight, I will love it. just wait until the recipient class has no one to steal money from..ah it would be sooooooooo nice, have all the productive people go john galt lol.

      btw I do like the volt but I think gm shouldve went bankrupt and there shouldnt be any subsidies for buying "green eco-schit" if you like it buy it.
      The same collapse that would have led to GM going under would have also affected Jeep/Chrysler. If it was not for government investment the 2009 Jeep in your driveway likely would not have been here. Also, why do anti-Bailout people only focus on the Volt/EVs? The govt. "invested" in Chrysler and GM, both of which sell way more Rams and Silverados than Toyota sells Priuses

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