Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    Page 5 of 15 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
    Results 101 to 125 of 367

    Thread: When innocent taxpayers are forced to 'invest' in defective technology

    1. Banned StormChaser's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 3rd, 2000
      Location
      Annapolis, MD
      Posts
      19,439
      Vehicles
      2006 Volvo V50, 1993 RX-7 R1, 1980 Hatteras 53MY, 2002 Grady White Release 283, 1958 Mohawk 14
      04-10-2012 12:37 PM #101
      Why on earth has this not been locked yet?

    2. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 20th, 2000
      Location
      Jacksonville, Florida
      Posts
      38,306
      Vehicles
      2001 Boxster, 2012 Kia Soul
      04-10-2012 12:43 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by Brendan@bwalkauto View Post
      Ever flown on a Boeing? Same thing too.
      Boeing? You mean that company that earned $70 BILLION dollars in revenue in 2011? Yeah I have. How many billions of dollars in profit did Fisker make last year? We get our money's worth out of Boeing but we hardly get a fleeting moment's worth of internet chuckles from Fisker.

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    3. Geriatric Member Turbio!'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 21st, 2005
      Location
      San Antonio, TX
      Posts
      41,563
      Vehicles
      '13 Subaru Outback
      04-10-2012 12:50 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      Boeing? You mean that company that earned $70 BILLION dollars in revenue in 2011? Yeah I have. How many billions of dollars in profit did Fisker make last year? We get our money's worth out of Boeing but we hardly get a fleeting moment's worth of internet chuckles from Fisker.

      obin
      Yeah, and hindsight is 20/20. Investment carries risk. I'd rather the government invest in, and potentially lose money on, Fisker - and its American technology partner, Quantum, whose technology's maturity depends on its commercialization - than see it just throw money into black holes without even the slightest probability of payback or benefit.
      Last edited by Turbio!; 04-10-2012 at 12:52 PM.
      IPRO Meat-Director and High Minister of Terror-Grilling

      Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Man View Post
      The Terror Grill: Part restaurant, part amusement attraction, part gladiator arena, all profit.
      ARE YOU NOT SATIATED?!?!?!

    4. Member MrRoboto's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 26th, 2000
      Location
      VHHH
      Posts
      4,753
      Vehicles
      E82M & V40 T4 R-Design
      04-10-2012 12:50 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      Absolutely. .
      You must be dreaming. Seriously.

    5. 04-10-2012 12:53 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      Boeing? You mean that company that earned $70 BILLION dollars in revenue in 2011? Yeah I have. How many billions of dollars in profit did Fisker make last year? We get our money's worth out of Boeing but we hardly get a fleeting moment's worth of internet chuckles from Fisker.

      obin
      Obin,
      Fisker is a few years in. Would Boeing be the $70bn company it is today if the govt had not patronized them ?

    6. Member
      Join Date
      Mar 23rd, 2011
      Location
      Charlotte
      Posts
      801
      Vehicles
      2008 a3 sline
      04-10-2012 12:55 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by XM_Rocks View Post
      The bailouts don't drive our debt... period.

      Our military is roughly half of our spending... these bailouts are fractions of a percent. Defense is no longer what its name implies... I call it "Offense".

      Trade deficits that we have been running for decades haven't helped either.

      Healthcare spending due to no cost control will soon cripple us.

      Lets talk about reducing the size of our defense drastically, reforming entitlement spending, truly tackling healthcare cost control, becoming the leader in new energy and bringing back manufacturing that was stripped out in the 80's.

      The Federal Government should be involved in the above.

      All unconstutional spending contributes to our increasing deficits and debt burden. While I concur the amount of the auto bailouts does not compare to many other spending programs, it is still money that should not be spent and has no authorization to be spent under the constitution.

      There are many people in this country and in the current and past administrations who do not understand the full impact of our debt burden and increasing deficits and what they mean for our economy in the long term. If they knew how serious it was, we would see be seeing real proposed cuts in the budget, instead of reducing yearly increases in the name of cuts.

    7. Member
      Join Date
      Mar 23rd, 2011
      Location
      Charlotte
      Posts
      801
      Vehicles
      2008 a3 sline
      04-10-2012 12:57 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
      You must be dreaming. Seriously.
      I am not. seriously

    8. Senior Member
      Join Date
      Jun 10th, 2000
      Location
      Motown
      Posts
      20,106
      Vehicles
      1957 Testa Rossa
      04-10-2012 12:58 PM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by StormChaser View Post
      Why on earth has this not been locked yet?
      Because we're trying to practice civility while discussing important topic.

      But seriously... I tried to focus the politics as it pertained to auto industry. I see we are tangenting a little into generalized politics, though.

      In all honesty... if we cannot even practice intelligent discourse on the net, it should come as no surprise that our government leaders will not (cannot) practice the same on the Hill. Afterall... they are no different than we are. Well... except for the fancy breakfast, the underground subway, the pension, the healthcare, the planes, the... wait. What were we talking about?

    9. Senior Member VarianceVQ's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 26th, 2005
      Location
      Fancy, Connecticut
      Posts
      20,470
      Vehicles
      2010 Toyota Prius V, 1996 Nissan Pathfinder LE 4x4
      04-10-2012 01:11 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      All unconstutional spending contributes to our increasing deficits and debt burden. While I concur the amount of the auto bailouts does not compare to many other spending programs, it is still money that should not be spent and has no authorization to be spent under the constitution.
      Too many people have a bad habit of confusing "not in the Constitution" with "unconstitutional".
      Everybody's dying, bitch; let's get you some fruit.

    10. Member
      Join Date
      Mar 23rd, 2011
      Location
      Charlotte
      Posts
      801
      Vehicles
      2008 a3 sline
      04-10-2012 01:17 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by VarianceVQ View Post
      Too many people have a bad habit of confusing "not in the Constitution" with "unconstitutional".
      I should specify. No authority in the constitution.

    11. Member 2.0T_Convert's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 23rd, 2009
      Location
      NYC
      Posts
      14,149
      04-10-2012 01:18 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      I should specify. No authority in the constitution.
      A woman is drowing in a lake with members of congress sitting in a fishing boat nearby.

      HELP MEEEEEEE PLEASE!

      Sorry mam it isn't defined within our powers to save you and is a state issue.
      Sent from my tablet while sipping weak drinks over fancy brunch with a view

    12. 04-10-2012 01:24 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by VarianceVQ View Post
      Too many people have a bad habit of confusing "not in the Constitution" with "unconstitutional".
      People also have a problem with interpreting the Constitution. Biases get in the way from both sides. It was intentionally written that way and the Federalist papers show that the founders didn't even agree on what exactly everything meant.

    13. Member
      Join Date
      Mar 23rd, 2011
      Location
      Charlotte
      Posts
      801
      Vehicles
      2008 a3 sline
      04-10-2012 01:24 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      A woman is drowing in a lake with members of congress sitting in a fishing boat nearby.

      HELP MEEEEEEE PLEASE!

      Sorry mam it isn't defined within our powers to save you and is a state issue.
      nice strawman.

      Just because someone believes in the constitutional limits of the Federal Government, does not mean they are heartless, uncharitable invidividuals.

    14. Member jspirate's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 15th, 2011
      Location
      Virginia
      Posts
      2,227
      Vehicles
      2011 CC 6MT
      04-10-2012 01:29 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      nice strawman.

      Just because someone believes in the constitutional limits of the Federal Government, does not mean they are heartless, uncharitable invidividuals.
      You've been placed in a box and there is no getting out!
      Daily | Weekend | Project

    15. Member XM_Rocks's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 29th, 2005
      Location
      Austin, TX
      Posts
      10,141
      Vehicles
      E90 335i and MK6 Golf
      04-10-2012 01:39 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      I should specify. No authority in the constitution.
      Thankfully nothing has changed since that 220 year old document was drafted.

      Times were different when the 13 colonies decided to form a nation.

      They had a gut full of an over bearing central government from across the pond. That's the lens they were looking through.

      Globalization has redefined the world as we know it.

      You think the creditor nations (China and Japan) you listed before don't have a strong central government control?

      Besides you think the Supreme Court actually interprets the constitution putting aside political beliefs and without influence from private business? Citizens United anyone?

    16. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 17th, 2010
      Location
      Twin Cities MN
      Posts
      4,709
      Vehicles
      Mr2, 951, NA6
      04-10-2012 01:47 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      Absolutely.
      BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH A

      i work in at one of the premier technology developing companies in the world, and i 100% guarantee you this is not true.
      Quote Originally Posted by kwik!gti
      Cockerpunk: 1
      TCL Hive mind troll brigade: 0

    17. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 20th, 2000
      Location
      Jacksonville, Florida
      Posts
      38,306
      Vehicles
      2001 Boxster, 2012 Kia Soul
      04-10-2012 01:51 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by juventuss View Post
      Obin,
      Fisker is a few years in. Would Boeing be the $70bn company it is today if the govt had not patronized them ?
      Boeing is in the business of moving, locating, or killing things a long distance away. That has worldwide appeal. They sell things that cost hundreds of millions of dollars and people buy these things a billion dollars at a time. That is how they got to be so big and so profitable. They own the largest building in the world where they help to maintain their position of the largest aerospace manufacturer in the world.

      Fisker is in the business of selling people things they really don't need or can get from someone else for much cheaper. If I had a billion dollars to invest it I would put it in Boeing's pocket knowing I'd make my money back.

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    18. 04-10-2012 01:59 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      Boeing is in the business of moving, locating, or killing things a long distance away. That has worldwide appeal. They sell things that cost hundreds of millions of dollars and people buy these things a billion dollars at a time. That is how they got to be so big and so profitable. They own the largest building in the world where they help to maintain their position of the largest aerospace manufacturer in the world.

      Fisker is in the business of selling people things they really don't need or can get from someone else for much cheaper. If I had a billion dollars to invest it I would put it in Boeing's pocket knowing I'd make my money back.

      obin
      This is exactly why there is the argument that the gov't should invest in emerging technologies. Everyday investors aren't willing to take that big of a risk, while the gov't can take that risk and hope that something comes of it down the line. We likely wouldn't have nuclear power without gov't help. Cars likely wouldn't have been widely accepted without public roads. Airplanes likely wouldn't be nearly as good or effective for so many things without the gov't either directly subsidizing them or handing out big contracts for new planes (which can make or break companies). Without the FAA our skies would be nightmares for travel and freight. Etc. The gov't has a useful role to be played here. At times the gov't strikes out and over steps its bounds, but at other times is brings us the internet.

    19. Member 2.0T_Convert's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 23rd, 2009
      Location
      NYC
      Posts
      14,149
      04-10-2012 02:04 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      Fisker is in the business of selling people things they really don't need or can get from someone else for much cheaper. If I had a billion dollars to invest it I would put it in Boeing's pocket knowing I'd make my money back.

      obin
      Instagram is a application for phones nobody needs that doesn't really do anything special that you cannot already do with a PC or laptop based photo program. It just gives a simple easy to use tool for phone users and honestly might become forgottena and irrelevant in a few years.

      Yet Facebook felt it was worth half a billion to take control of Instagram.

      One never knows the future worth of small startups and is the case of Fisker or Tesla each may even up influencing other automakers or providing technology for sale on R&D already accompished.
      Sent from my tablet while sipping weak drinks over fancy brunch with a view

    20. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 17th, 2010
      Location
      Twin Cities MN
      Posts
      4,709
      Vehicles
      Mr2, 951, NA6
      04-10-2012 02:07 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      Boeing is in the business of moving, locating, or killing things a long distance away. That has worldwide appeal. They sell things that cost hundreds of millions of dollars and people buy these things a billion dollars at a time. That is how they got to be so big and so profitable. They own the largest building in the world where they help to maintain their position of the largest aerospace manufacturer in the world.

      Fisker is in the business of selling people things they really don't need or can get from someone else for much cheaper. If I had a billion dollars to invest it I would put it in Boeing's pocket knowing I'd make my money back.

      obin
      the IP alone that fisker and other start ups are the real value.

      the IP could be worth billions.
      Quote Originally Posted by kwik!gti
      Cockerpunk: 1
      TCL Hive mind troll brigade: 0

    21. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 20th, 2000
      Location
      Jacksonville, Florida
      Posts
      38,306
      Vehicles
      2001 Boxster, 2012 Kia Soul
      04-10-2012 02:12 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by silverlegacy View Post
      This is exactly why there is the argument that the gov't should invest in emerging technologies. Everyday investors aren't willing to take that big of a risk, while the gov't can take that risk and hope that something comes of it down the line. We likely wouldn't have nuclear power without gov't help. Cars likely wouldn't have been widely accepted without public roads. Airplanes likely wouldn't be nearly as good or effective for so many things without the gov't either directly subsidizing them or handing out big contracts for new planes (which can make or break companies). Without the FAA our skies would be nightmares for travel and freight. Etc. The gov't has a useful role to be played here. At times the gov't strikes out and over steps its bounds, but at other times is brings us the internet.
      People often forget that it was the US Government that brought us digital computers as well. The investment was worth it. After all it's fairly difficult to compute artillery shell trajectory and once you figure out a fast way to do it the world will beat a path to your door. He who can most accurately compute the ballistics of artillery and rockets will win. Everyone wants to be able to do that and they'll pay a lot of money to do it. It was worth the investment as as we can all see it paid off.



      Fisker isn't doing anything revolutionary. They are just tarting up a golf car and adding a few dollars to the price tag.

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    22. Member
      Join Date
      Mar 23rd, 2011
      Location
      Charlotte
      Posts
      801
      Vehicles
      2008 a3 sline
      04-10-2012 02:13 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by XM_Rocks View Post
      Thankfully nothing has changed since that 220 year old document was drafted.

      Times were different when the 13 colonies decided to form a nation.

      They had a gut full of an over bearing central government from across the pond. That's the lens they were looking through.

      Globalization has redefined the world as we know it.

      You think the creditor nations (China and Japan) you listed before don't have a strong central government control?

      Besides you think the Supreme Court actually interprets the constitution putting aside political beliefs and without influence from private business? Citizens United anyone?
      Globalization may have redefined the world, but economics doesn't change. Economic growth comes from savings, capital formation, and production. Not from borrowing, printing, and consuming. Doesn't matter if we are in the 1800's or 2000's.

      We were a nation of more than 13 colonies prior to 1913. We were doing quite well before government started sapping resources from the private sector in the name of the common good. We had the largest middle class and the largest growing middle class. Standard of living was rising as prices were falling.

      Does anyone remember how we saw the longest period of real economic growth after the civil war? It wasn't because government was dictating everything and trying to choose winners and losers. People saved, formulated capital, and produced. Individuals are not smarter than the market as a whole, and thus why central planning (especially of money), fails at the federal level. If all these programs were so successful, we wouldn't have the largest debt of any country in the world with a $1/2 trillion trade deficit.

      And I agree that the Supreme Court has been slack in there duties of upholding the constitution.

    23. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 17th, 2010
      Location
      Twin Cities MN
      Posts
      4,709
      Vehicles
      Mr2, 951, NA6
      04-10-2012 02:15 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      Fisker isn't doing anything revolutionary. They are just tarting up a golf car and adding a few dollars to the price tag.

      obin
      well thats good to know, i'll send that memo to everyone at fisker so they know to stop working.
      Quote Originally Posted by kwik!gti
      Cockerpunk: 1
      TCL Hive mind troll brigade: 0

    24. Member
      Join Date
      Mar 23rd, 2011
      Location
      Charlotte
      Posts
      801
      Vehicles
      2008 a3 sline
      04-10-2012 02:16 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH A

      i work in at one of the premier technology developing companies in the world, and i 100% guarantee you this is not true.
      You are basing an entire private sector's ability to innovate based on 1 company. We may need a larger sample size.

    25. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 17th, 2010
      Location
      Twin Cities MN
      Posts
      4,709
      Vehicles
      Mr2, 951, NA6
      04-10-2012 02:19 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      You are basing an entire private sector's ability to innovate based on 1 company. We may need a larger sample size.
      just saying, where i work, 15% of our time is spent on non-managment directed research and development ... as far as innovation in the private sector ... there is nothing larger then that. its company policy to have the freedom to invent something totally unrelated to your job. YOU CAN"T GET MORE FREE TO INNOVATE THEN THAT.

      companies don't want to do basic research.

      they want to take basic research, and make products.

      basic research is time consuming, expensive, and slow. companies want to be fast, agile, and have very short development times. companies don't want to do basic research, they want to sell products.

      thus, it makes more sense then anything else, have basic research heavily subsidized, so that can facilitate rapid bringing of technology to market.

      the private sector benefits most from government funded basic research.
      Last edited by cockerpunk; 04-10-2012 at 02:21 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by kwik!gti
      Cockerpunk: 1
      TCL Hive mind troll brigade: 0

    Page 5 of 15 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •