Autocar: Mazda MX-5 vs Nissan 370Z vs Subaru BRZ

[cougar]

Would it kill you to just stay out of threads?

FTFY

[AZGolf]

The Miata in the USA actually has 167hp for the MT models. Only the AT model has the 158hp they list for the Euro version. Considering the Miata took 2nd place in C/D's best handling car of 2011 review, I'm curious to see how they rank it. As a Miata owner myself, the BRZ certainly has my interest, but then again the biggest reason I got the Miata was because it's a convertible, not because of its speed or handling - those were just a bonus of the whole small sports car package.

[BRealistic]

It's a ROW trimline with a 134 hp engine. It's still quicker than the BRZ for the same money, though certainly less practical too.

A friend of mine has one in Germany and loves it.

ROW trimline?

Anyway- it is still quite a bit more expensive than the BRZ, especially if you forgo the "premium" trim in the autocar review.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/www.autocar...e-1.6-/249983/

You can get a brand new MX-5 for under £20k fwiw.

[BRealistic]

The Miata in the USA actually has 167hp for the MT models. Only the AT model has the 158hp they list for the Euro version. Considering the Miata took 2nd place in C/D's best handling car of 2011 review, I'm curious to see how they rank it. As a Miata owner myself, the BRZ certainly has my interest, but then again the biggest reason I got the Miata was because it's a convertible, not because of its speed or handling - those were just a bonus of the whole small sports car package.

With Mazda's new high compression "Sky Active" engine tech, it is weird to see that the MX-5 in this test has the lowest compression ration (A sign of the engine's age and intended mainstream application I guess). The BRZ is 12.5 to 1. really?

[Khyron]

True. We've seen the specs. This is writer fluff. They do this with just about all new cars. The Z is in a totally different performance class and will blow the BRZ's doors off. As would a Mustang. For $3K more than the BRZ Premium you have M3 performance and ability in the Mustang GT.

Please post the video/magazine review of the comparison you've done. The Cote d'Azure is a very twisty road with no real straights like you would see in NA.

Up here the GT starts at 37,300. The FR-S is 25800. I'd imagine in Europe it's even worse.

[DJMRDARK]

Please post the video/magazine review of the comparison you've done. The Cote d'Azure is a very twisty road with no real straights like you would see in NA.

Up here the GT starts at 37,300. The FR-S is 25800. I'd imagine in Europe it's even worse.

The videos I've done are not car related. Request denied.

[bmann]

I owned a 370Z for a year. It did not feel like driving a tank...for some reason people think 3400lbs is terribly heavy these days, but it's not.

It is. I have a spot of tight esses and long sweeping turn on my morning commute. An extra 1000 lbs is definitely noticeable.

[Waarp]

The Cote d'Azure is a very twisty road with no real straights like you would see in NA.

Where can I find this Cote d'Azure road? Is it near the Cote d'Azure?

[scsuh]

Keep in mind that with most comparisons and such with the 350/370Z, it seems like they're remarkably slow relative to what their specs would suggest. Not to say their bad cars, just that they're not really as fast as they would suggest. Back when the 350Z came out, they were losing comparisons to RX-8s (or at least just BARELY winning), when they should technically blow those out of the water.



Yeah, as much as I like the BRZ/FT86, or at least the idea of it, I could never buy one knowing a Mustang GT is only a couple grand away. Or even the same price if you pick up one thats like a year old. I have the same problem with the 370Z and MX5, actually. Great cars, I just couldn't bring myself to get one knowing that I could have had a Mustang instead.

But I'm a bit of a Mustang fanboy, so what do I know?

According to Nissan, the 370z weighs 3,245 lbs, which is hardly heavy for a sports car these days. I am a bit of a 370z nut, and very much want it to be my next car. I've read every single review there is for the car, watched every video review, and have driven the car enough times to get a feel for it. I have not once seen a negative review for the car, or read someone say that it drives slower than its specs suggest. It appears that you are only referencing the 350z, which is unfair because the 370z is a MUCh improved car over its predecessor in almost every imaginable way. I would say that this comparison has the least praise for the 370z in any review that i've read. But one thing I noticed, and a reason why i'm taking this comparison with a grain of salt is that, (unless the European 370z is specced completely differently) he is driving a base 370z but quotes the vehicle as having the specs of the sports package.

If anything, I think this comparison is a bit silly. The BRZ, 370z, and miata are all excellent cars in their own right, but are cars that are not likely to be cross-shopped because of varying levels of price, performance, and practicality.

[MoPho]

I'll just put this here:

[ti.pilot]

I want this car.

But I feel that it's a lateral move from my car.

I'm getting over low torque, awesome handling.

Don't think wifey will be happy if I come home with a 2+barely2 to replace my current 2+2

Exactly how I feel about this car but with the added benefit of a bit better gas mileage.

[Shomegrown]

ROW trimline?

Anyway- it is still quite a bit more expensive than the BRZ, especially if you forgo the "premium" trim in the autocar review.

"Rest of World". They don't offer the 1.6 in North America, but I believe it's offered everywhere else.

I consider 26,500 vs 28,450 pound sterling a moot point - espeically since the Lotus steps up to higher performance and much more technology in the chassis. Autocar must conisider it moot too otherwise they wouldn't have made the comparison.

[BRealistic]

"Rest of World". They don't offer the 1.6 in North America, but I believe it's offered everywhere else.

Oh.. ok.

I consider 26,500 vs 28,450 pound sterling a moot point - espeically since the Lotus steps up to higher performance and much more technology in the chassis. Autocar must conisider it moot too otherwise they wouldn't have made the comparison.

Then compare base price to base price. The BRZ starts at 25 grand in the UK.

And if the difference from 25 to 28.5 grand is nothing, then so it the difference between 28.5 and 32 grand for a better Elise. Why even offer the base 1.6?

But seriously- the Subaru could be a reasonable daily driver while the Elise is a fun toy.
And surely the Subaru would be cheaper to own.- tho the Elise resale values are strong.

[Cousin Eddie]

They were reviewing the cars on a twisty road were handling matters more then flat out speed. The BRZ would shine on a road like this while the 370z would feel like it handled like a pig because of the weight.

Know how I know you've never driven a 370Z?

I put dad's 370Z through the ringer at one of The Porsche Club of America's advanced driver training days last year. That car is FAST in a slalom and dead flat. I was really impressed with the car.

Prior to that day if only driven it on the streets and felt the car was slightly uninspired or the VDC was too invasive. Get a 370 out and turn the VDC off. The car is another animal that really hangs it out and shines.

There is a LOT more to handling than just "curb weight". Chassis dynamics play a huge role and Nissan put a lot of development into properly balancing the car. They got judged for not having a 50/50 weight distribution. What is the point of 50/50 weight distribution when the car is sitting neutral? The moment you accelerate that number changes dramatically. Nissan created a car that is more balanced under braking to avoid sudden load on the front tires.

[bmann]

^did you see the video posted by Mopho above?

[Cousin Eddie]

^did you see the video posted by Mopho above?

Yeah, what's your point? Imagine that a RWD 330HP car is a handful on a rain covered slick track with no VDC. Watch the video, standing water and slick in the Z and then almost dry in the Renault.

I've driven many different sports cars. I regularly drive Porsche 930s. I'm saying the 370 is far from a pig and I've driven it in similar conditions to that video on a track and it wasn't nearly as exaggerated as they made it. I found the car to be fairly predictable if you have any idea how to drive in the wet. I did drifts on a skid-pad and was able to make multiple rotations of the pad with the ass end hung out.

I would expect a much lighter FWD sports chassis hatch to be more predictable and easier to drive.

My original reply was merely that the 370 is not the tank many make it out to be. That would be like me calling the Miata a tank because I could be driving a 60s Mini.

[20aeman]

Anyone who thinks an econo tired BRZ will hang with a 370z that's on steamrollers and has a 130hp advantage is on freaking crack.

The BRZ is a coupe miata. Don't ever compare metrics to another sports car, because more often than not, you'll get embarrassed.

[Cousin Eddie]

I also want to say that if the car under steers when carrying too much speed into a soaking wet corner and the oversteers during hard acceleration out of the corner how is that a surprise?

I would rather the car have slight understeer on the way in and be controlled and predictable. It's certainly better than a car whose ass end comes around under braking. I find the chassis to be fairly stable and any weight transfer is minimal and predictable. The car stays fairly flat and poised. Again, I'm speaking from actually spending time behind the wheel. Not reading articles.

[MoPho]

Know how I know you've never driven a 370Z?

I put dad's 370Z through the ringer at one of The Porsche Club of America's advanced driver training days last year. That car is FAST in a slalom and dead flat. I was really impressed with the car.

Prior to that day if only driven it on the streets and felt the car was slightly uninspired or the VDC was too invasive. Get a 370 out and turn the VDC off. The car is another animal that really hangs it out and shines.

There is a LOT more to handling than just "curb weight". Chassis dynamics play a huge role and Nissan put a lot of development into properly balancing the car. They got judged for not having a 50/50 weight distribution. What is the point of 50/50 weight distribution when the car is sitting neutral? The moment you accelerate that number changes dramatically. Nissan created a car that is more balanced under braking to avoid sudden load on the front tires.

You kind of prove 50fridge's point as the magazine test was on a twisty road, of course it is going to be a different story on the track

Yeah, what's your point? Imagine that a RWD 330HP car is a handful on a rain covered slick track with no VDC. Watch the video, standing water and slick in the Z and then almost dry in the Renault.

I've driven many different sports cars. I regularly drive Porsche 930s. I'm saying the 370 is far from a pig and I've driven it in similar conditions to that video on a track and it wasn't nearly as exaggerated as they made it. I found the car to be fairly predictable if you have any idea how to drive in the wet. I did drifts on a skid-pad and was able to make multiple rotations of the pad with the ass end hung out.

I would expect a much lighter FWD sports chassis hatch to be more predictable and easier to drive.

My original reply was merely that the 370 is not the tank many make it out to be. That would be like me calling the Miata a tank because I could be driving a 60s Mini.

I also want to say that if the car under steers when carrying too much speed into a soaking wet corner and the oversteers during hard acceleration out of the corner how is that a surprise?

I would rather the car have slight understeer on the way in and be controlled and predictable. It's certainly better than a car whose ass end comes around under braking. I find the chassis to be fairly stable and any weight transfer is minimal and predictable. The car stays fairly flat and poised. Again, I'm speaking from actually spending time behind the wheel. Not reading articles.

Are you suggesting that you know better than Mark and Tiff? I used to work with Mark and he is an amazing driver with tons of experience testing for WRC teams, so excuse me if I take his word over yours. They were talking about how it transitions from understeer to oversteer, not the fact that it did it
And those conditions are perfect for revealing a cars balance or lack there of


And just to note, I have driven the 370z on both the road and on the track, standard and Nismo too. I like the car and don't have anything really bad to say about other than the motor is a bit thrashy, but I have little doubt a car like the BRZ could hang with it on a mountain road as such a road will not let a Z truly stretch it's legs. Just the same I am sure a Z could hang on a mountain road with cars that are much faster on paper too.

[Cousin Eddie]

Never once did I say they were bad drivers. I have huge respect for Mark. I merely took issue with the Z being called overweight which is untrue. I mean making an excuse for a smaller underpowered car by saying "yeah we'll it would be faster around a go cart track" and then quantifying that with saying the car is fighting in the same class is kind of dumb.

That's like saying a 50hp shifter cart is faster than the BRZ around the track and therefore it's a comparable car or should be respected as equal because it's better at something. It's flawed logic in something that won't be cross shopped and really has no relevance to either car's intended market or audience.

I myself personally didn't find the Z to be very upset during the corner transitions but to each their own I guess? I also don't find Porsche 930s to be the suicidal death machines that people make them out to be so maybe I'm not as hyper sensitive or analytical as some.

And I'm not a horsepower hungry guy. My favorite car to drive bar none is my Datsun Z. The thing is harsh in its ride, it reeks of fuel and is slow in acceleration from a dead stop. It will carve corners with the best of them and I am in love with the way it drives and how light it is. But I'm not the type of guy to justify the car against higher powered car and say "oh yeah, well get on a winding road and we will see how well your 400hp Vette does buddy!" because that's totally irrelevant.

[Cousin Eddie]

And with regards to the point of track vs street what is the point of testing a sports car with a highly intrusive VDC system that slows the inside wheel down by applying the brake when you enter a corner slightly too spirited?

The dynamics of the Z and its suspension setup are excellent but they are masked by a brutally strict nanny to keep every inexperienced Tom dick and Harry from piling themselves into the trees. How could you possibly compare "sports oriented driving" with the system engaged? That's like testing the off-road capabilities of a Jeep Rubicon and leaving it in 2wd with the diffs unlocked and saying a full time AWD vehicle is better, It simply doesn't make sense.

[ElixXxeR]

And let's also not forget that Tiff (and Vicky) very much likes the 370Z.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyH5ZyuVWbk

[Anon1210]

From that one side image, the Subaru reminds me of the Aston Martin Vantage. Only in that one view but still...

[Cousin Eddie]

And let's also not forget that Tiff (and Vicky) very much likes the 370Z.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyH5ZyuVWbk

Funny how there was no mention of poor cornering characteristics when Renault wasn't paying the advertising budget that day. "the nose points in and it goes" not "oh no! Understeer and snap oversteer!"

[MoPho]

But I'm not the type of guy to justify the car against higher powered car and say "oh yeah, well get on a winding road and we will see how well your 400hp Vette does buddy!" because that's totally irrelevant.

Why not, a winding road is the real world and most people don't track their cars?

[MoPho]

Funny how there was no mention of poor cornering characteristics when Renault wasn't paying the advertising budget that day. "the nose points in and it goes" not "oh no! Understeer and snap oversteer!"

Right, so perhaps Nissan was paying their advertising budget on this day

[Cousin Eddie]

Right, so perhaps Nissan was paying their advertising budget on this day

Likely. That was my point i don't put a ton of faith in journalism where there is a strong chance for favoritism or bias. I go out and test drive any cars i'm interested in and form my own opinions. I don't armchair quarter back based on stats and bull****.

As for your other statement, most people don't actually drive hard on windy roads. Most owners hit freeways and want driveability and style points. If mountain road driving were a common priority there would be a lot more people with Lotus 7's like you have.

[Cousin Eddie]

And correct me f I'm wrong but wasn't the #1 auto cross car in the states within the last couple years an early 70s Camaro with Hotchkiss suspension? So weight isn't everything.

[MoPho]

Likely. That was my point i don't put a ton of faith in journalism where there is a strong chance for favoritism or bias. I go out and test drive any cars i'm interested in and form my own opinions. I don't armchair quarter back based on stats and bull****.

Actually, I was suggesting you are full of crap. I've worked for car mags for years and the idea that the advertising influences the outcome of a test is nonsense. Pretty much ever car company advertises at one point or another, it would be impossible to show bias to keep one happy without pissing the other off.

As for your other statement, most people don't actually drive hard on windy roads. Most owners hit freeways and want driveability and style points. If mountain road driving were a common priority there would be a lot more people with Lotus 7's like you have.

Which makes your argument about how the car is on a race track even less relevant.

Remember, the article we are discussing is a European magazine and they don't have freeways like we do, so discussing what the cars are like on a mountain road is very relevant
Try driving in a country like Ireland and you'd see where a car like the BRZ would be able to give a "Zed" a run for it's money.

[Klim18]

0-62 MPH in 7.6 seconds..

It doesn't mean anything, my GTI was advertized 7.2 in 0-60 on the official VW website but I've recorded 6.1 - 6.0 with just myself and 1/5 of tank of gas left.

[Cousin Eddie]

So back to the original reason I even mentioned the track at all in the first place (before you ran off on this tangent) is I was defending against the Z being called a overweight. I couldn't believe someone would consider it overweight. Hence the post I quoted and how this all got started. I said nothing about it being better than the BRZ in that post just merely that the car isn't a fat clumsy P.O.S.

[MoPho]

So back to the original reason I even mentioned the track at all in the first place (before you ran off on this tangent) is I was defending against the Z being called a overweight. I couldn't believe someone would consider it overweight. Hence the post I quoted and how this all got started. I said nothing about it being better than the BRZ in that post just merely that the car isn't a fat clumsy P.O.S.

Um, you're the one who went on a tangent about how the car behaves on a track and how the video is "incorrect"


And 50fridge didn't say the car a fat clumsy pig, he was suggesting that on a really tight road the Z would feel like a pig compared to the subaru because of the weight difference, which is in line with what the article was saying

[Cousin Eddie]

I didn't say incorrect I said exaggerated. The Z was throwing up spray it was so wet and the Renault had a nice dry line to run, I didn't think the conditions were a fair shake. We can agree to disagree.

[MoPho]

I didn't say incorrect I said exaggerated. The Z was throwing up spray it was so wet and the Renault had a nice dry line to run, I didn't think the conditions were a fair shake. We can agree to disagree.

I don't want to argue anymore, but just to point out that when they film these shows, they are cut together from many different runs around the track, so you can't necessarily judge the conditions by what you see in the video.

[20aeman]

I don't want to argue anymore, but just to point out that when they film these shows, they are cut together from many different runs around the track, so you can't necessarily judge the conditions by what you see in the video.

So your assumption that the cars were run under similar conditions outweighs his assumptions that the conditions were different?

The general public's understanding of the BRZ's performance is tenuous at best; hence these ridiculous comparisons.

Once people familiarize themselves with the car; they'll realize what it's capable of and we can finally (in unison) scoff at the idea of it competing against a 370z.

Until then, yes, let's pretend that on some magic stretch of public road (where a driver's courage is the usual determinant for how fast a car is); the BRZ is a match for the 370z.