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    Thread: Autocar: Mazda MX-5 vs Nissan 370Z vs Subaru BRZ

    1. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 10:08 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by bmann View Post
      ^did you see the video posted by Mopho above?
      Yeah, what's your point? Imagine that a RWD 330HP car is a handful on a rain covered slick track with no VDC. Watch the video, standing water and slick in the Z and then almost dry in the Renault.

      I've driven many different sports cars. I regularly drive Porsche 930s. I'm saying the 370 is far from a pig and I've driven it in similar conditions to that video on a track and it wasn't nearly as exaggerated as they made it. I found the car to be fairly predictable if you have any idea how to drive in the wet. I did drifts on a skid-pad and was able to make multiple rotations of the pad with the ass end hung out.

      I would expect a much lighter FWD sports chassis hatch to be more predictable and easier to drive.

      My original reply was merely that the 370 is not the tank many make it out to be. That would be like me calling the Miata a tank because I could be driving a 60s Mini.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

    2. Banned 20aeman's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 10:16 PM #52
      Anyone who thinks an econo tired BRZ will hang with a 370z that's on steamrollers and has a 130hp advantage is on freaking crack.

      The BRZ is a coupe miata. Don't ever compare metrics to another sports car, because more often than not, you'll get embarrassed.

    3. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 10:20 PM #53
      I also want to say that if the car under steers when carrying too much speed into a soaking wet corner and the oversteers during hard acceleration out of the corner how is that a surprise?

      I would rather the car have slight understeer on the way in and be controlled and predictable. It's certainly better than a car whose ass end comes around under braking. I find the chassis to be fairly stable and any weight transfer is minimal and predictable. The car stays fairly flat and poised. Again, I'm speaking from actually spending time behind the wheel. Not reading articles.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

    4. Member MoPho's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 10:48 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      Know how I know you've never driven a 370Z?

      I put dad's 370Z through the ringer at one of The Porsche Club of America's advanced driver training days last year. That car is FAST in a slalom and dead flat. I was really impressed with the car.

      Prior to that day if only driven it on the streets and felt the car was slightly uninspired or the VDC was too invasive. Get a 370 out and turn the VDC off. The car is another animal that really hangs it out and shines.

      There is a LOT more to handling than just "curb weight". Chassis dynamics play a huge role and Nissan put a lot of development into properly balancing the car. They got judged for not having a 50/50 weight distribution. What is the point of 50/50 weight distribution when the car is sitting neutral? The moment you accelerate that number changes dramatically. Nissan created a car that is more balanced under braking to avoid sudden load on the front tires.

      You kind of prove 50fridge's point as the magazine test was on a twisty road, of course it is going to be a different story on the track


      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      Yeah, what's your point? Imagine that a RWD 330HP car is a handful on a rain covered slick track with no VDC. Watch the video, standing water and slick in the Z and then almost dry in the Renault.

      I've driven many different sports cars. I regularly drive Porsche 930s. I'm saying the 370 is far from a pig and I've driven it in similar conditions to that video on a track and it wasn't nearly as exaggerated as they made it. I found the car to be fairly predictable if you have any idea how to drive in the wet. I did drifts on a skid-pad and was able to make multiple rotations of the pad with the ass end hung out.

      I would expect a much lighter FWD sports chassis hatch to be more predictable and easier to drive.

      My original reply was merely that the 370 is not the tank many make it out to be. That would be like me calling the Miata a tank because I could be driving a 60s Mini.

      I also want to say that if the car under steers when carrying too much speed into a soaking wet corner and the oversteers during hard acceleration out of the corner how is that a surprise?

      I would rather the car have slight understeer on the way in and be controlled and predictable. It's certainly better than a car whose ass end comes around under braking. I find the chassis to be fairly stable and any weight transfer is minimal and predictable. The car stays fairly flat and poised. Again, I'm speaking from actually spending time behind the wheel. Not reading articles.

      Are you suggesting that you know better than Mark and Tiff? I used to work with Mark and he is an amazing driver with tons of experience testing for WRC teams, so excuse me if I take his word over yours. They were talking about how it transitions from understeer to oversteer, not the fact that it did it
      And those conditions are perfect for revealing a cars balance or lack there of


      And just to note, I have driven the 370z on both the road and on the track, standard and Nismo too. I like the car and don't have anything really bad to say about other than the motor is a bit thrashy, but I have little doubt a car like the BRZ could hang with it on a mountain road as such a road will not let a Z truly stretch it's legs. Just the same I am sure a Z could hang on a mountain road with cars that are much faster on paper too.
      Last edited by MoPho; 04-08-2012 at 10:56 PM.

    5. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 11:30 PM #55
      Never once did I say they were bad drivers. I have huge respect for Mark. I merely took issue with the Z being called overweight which is untrue. I mean making an excuse for a smaller underpowered car by saying "yeah we'll it would be faster around a go cart track" and then quantifying that with saying the car is fighting in the same class is kind of dumb.

      That's like saying a 50hp shifter cart is faster than the BRZ around the track and therefore it's a comparable car or should be respected as equal because it's better at something. It's flawed logic in something that won't be cross shopped and really has no relevance to either car's intended market or audience.

      I myself personally didn't find the Z to be very upset during the corner transitions but to each their own I guess? I also don't find Porsche 930s to be the suicidal death machines that people make them out to be so maybe I'm not as hyper sensitive or analytical as some.

      And I'm not a horsepower hungry guy. My favorite car to drive bar none is my Datsun Z. The thing is harsh in its ride, it reeks of fuel and is slow in acceleration from a dead stop. It will carve corners with the best of them and I am in love with the way it drives and how light it is. But I'm not the type of guy to justify the car against higher powered car and say "oh yeah, well get on a winding road and we will see how well your 400hp Vette does buddy!" because that's totally irrelevant.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

    6. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 11:39 PM #56
      And with regards to the point of track vs street what is the point of testing a sports car with a highly intrusive VDC system that slows the inside wheel down by applying the brake when you enter a corner slightly too spirited?

      The dynamics of the Z and its suspension setup are excellent but they are masked by a brutally strict nanny to keep every inexperienced Tom dick and Harry from piling themselves into the trees. How could you possibly compare "sports oriented driving" with the system engaged? That's like testing the off-road capabilities of a Jeep Rubicon and leaving it in 2wd with the diffs unlocked and saying a full time AWD vehicle is better, It simply doesn't make sense.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

    7. Member ElixXxeR's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 11:45 PM #57
      And let's also not forget that Tiff (and Vicky) very much likes the 370Z.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyH5ZyuVWbk

    8. 04-08-2012 11:52 PM #58
      From that one side image, the Subaru reminds me of the Aston Martin Vantage. Only in that one view but still...

    9. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 11:54 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by ElixXxeR View Post
      And let's also not forget that Tiff (and Vicky) very much likes the 370Z.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyH5ZyuVWbk
      Funny how there was no mention of poor cornering characteristics when Renault wasn't paying the advertising budget that day. "the nose points in and it goes" not "oh no! Understeer and snap oversteer!"
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

    10. Member MoPho's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 11:55 PM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      But I'm not the type of guy to justify the car against higher powered car and say "oh yeah, well get on a winding road and we will see how well your 400hp Vette does buddy!" because that's totally irrelevant.

      Why not, a winding road is the real world and most people don't track their cars?

    11. Member MoPho's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 11:57 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      Funny how there was no mention of poor cornering characteristics when Renault wasn't paying the advertising budget that day. "the nose points in and it goes" not "oh no! Understeer and snap oversteer!"

      Right, so perhaps Nissan was paying their advertising budget on this day

    12. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 12:03 AM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
      Right, so perhaps Nissan was paying their advertising budget on this day
      Likely. That was my point i don't put a ton of faith in journalism where there is a strong chance for favoritism or bias. I go out and test drive any cars i'm interested in and form my own opinions. I don't armchair quarter back based on stats and bull****.

      As for your other statement, most people don't actually drive hard on windy roads. Most owners hit freeways and want driveability and style points. If mountain road driving were a common priority there would be a lot more people with Lotus 7's like you have.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

    13. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 12:10 AM #63
      And correct me f I'm wrong but wasn't the #1 auto cross car in the states within the last couple years an early 70s Camaro with Hotchkiss suspension? So weight isn't everything.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

    14. Member MoPho's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 12:20 AM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      Likely. That was my point i don't put a ton of faith in journalism where there is a strong chance for favoritism or bias. I go out and test drive any cars i'm interested in and form my own opinions. I don't armchair quarter back based on stats and bull****.

      Actually, I was suggesting you are full of crap. I've worked for car mags for years and the idea that the advertising influences the outcome of a test is nonsense. Pretty much ever car company advertises at one point or another, it would be impossible to show bias to keep one happy without pissing the other off.



      As for your other statement, most people don't actually drive hard on windy roads. Most owners hit freeways and want driveability and style points. If mountain road driving were a common priority there would be a lot more people with Lotus 7's like you have.

      Which makes your argument about how the car is on a race track even less relevant.

      Remember, the article we are discussing is a European magazine and they don't have freeways like we do, so discussing what the cars are like on a mountain road is very relevant
      Try driving in a country like Ireland and you'd see where a car like the BRZ would be able to give a "Zed" a run for it's money.
      Last edited by MoPho; 04-09-2012 at 12:25 AM.

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      04-09-2012 12:24 AM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by teklord69 View Post
      0-62 MPH in 7.6 seconds..
      It doesn't mean anything, my GTI was advertized 7.2 in 0-60 on the official VW website but I've recorded 6.1 - 6.0 with just myself and 1/5 of tank of gas left.

    16. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 12:26 AM #66
      So back to the original reason I even mentioned the track at all in the first place (before you ran off on this tangent) is I was defending against the Z being called a overweight. I couldn't believe someone would consider it overweight. Hence the post I quoted and how this all got started. I said nothing about it being better than the BRZ in that post just merely that the car isn't a fat clumsy P.O.S.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

    17. Member MoPho's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 12:54 AM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      So back to the original reason I even mentioned the track at all in the first place (before you ran off on this tangent) is I was defending against the Z being called a overweight. I couldn't believe someone would consider it overweight. Hence the post I quoted and how this all got started. I said nothing about it being better than the BRZ in that post just merely that the car isn't a fat clumsy P.O.S.

      Um, you're the one who went on a tangent about how the car behaves on a track and how the video is "incorrect"


      And 50fridge didn't say the car a fat clumsy pig, he was suggesting that on a really tight road the Z would feel like a pig compared to the subaru because of the weight difference, which is in line with what the article was saying

    18. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 12:57 AM #68
      I didn't say incorrect I said exaggerated. The Z was throwing up spray it was so wet and the Renault had a nice dry line to run, I didn't think the conditions were a fair shake. We can agree to disagree.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

    19. Member MoPho's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 01:06 AM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      I didn't say incorrect I said exaggerated. The Z was throwing up spray it was so wet and the Renault had a nice dry line to run, I didn't think the conditions were a fair shake. We can agree to disagree.
      I don't want to argue anymore, but just to point out that when they film these shows, they are cut together from many different runs around the track, so you can't necessarily judge the conditions by what you see in the video.

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      04-09-2012 01:18 AM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
      I don't want to argue anymore, but just to point out that when they film these shows, they are cut together from many different runs around the track, so you can't necessarily judge the conditions by what you see in the video.
      So your assumption that the cars were run under similar conditions outweighs his assumptions that the conditions were different?

      The general public's understanding of the BRZ's performance is tenuous at best; hence these ridiculous comparisons.

      Once people familiarize themselves with the car; they'll realize what it's capable of and we can finally (in unison) scoff at the idea of it competing against a 370z.

      Until then, yes, let's pretend that on some magic stretch of public road (where a driver's courage is the usual determinant for how fast a car is); the BRZ is a match for the 370z.

    21. Member MoPho's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 01:43 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      So your assumption that the cars were run under similar conditions outweighs his assumptions that the conditions were different?
      I am not assuming anything, I was pointing out that he can't say definitively that the conditions were different.


      And the article clearly states that the 370z would walk away from the BRZ when the conditions allow for it

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      04-09-2012 08:59 AM #72
      Am I the only one impressed by the trunk size in the BRZ?

    23. 04-09-2012 12:04 PM #73
      Only way to be sure is to Forza/GT5 them all around a track

      P.S.

      BRZ can get an easy extra 100 torques with a well placed STI sticker and gold wheels.
      It is known khaleesi.

    24. 04-09-2012 12:14 PM #74
      To properly discuss the driving dynamics merits of the 350/370Z, one must drive it on the track with VDC off. It is a COMPLETELY different car compared to enthusiastic street driving.

      I've owned my 350Z for about 4 years now, and after a few track day sessions, I don't enjoy driving it on the roads anymore after experiencing what it can do on the track. It's a terrible car for enthusiastic street driving. It's great for commuting and great on the track, but sucks for anything in between.

      I can see why the BRZ would be better on the twisty European roads along the French riveria. I wouldn't disagree with the reviewer.

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      04-09-2012 12:19 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      So your assumption that the cars were run under similar conditions outweighs his assumptions that the conditions were different?

      The general public's understanding of the BRZ's performance is tenuous at best; hence these ridiculous comparisons.

      Once people familiarize themselves with the car; they'll realize what it's capable of and we can finally (in unison) scoff at the idea of it competing against a 370z.

      Until then, yes, let's pretend that on some magic stretch of public road (where a driver's courage is the usual determinant for how fast a car is); the BRZ is a match for the 370z.
      Would you like to be the pot or the kettle?
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