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    Thread: Father, 9 year old daughter dead after speeding teen in Escalade mows them down.

    1. Member dieselraver's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 11:57 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by dubinsincuwereindiapers View Post
      Nobody blamed the cyclists. We simply don't know enough to claim negligence on the part of the driver. It happened on what amounts to, essentially a highway. There's not enough damage to the suv, to jump to the conclusion that the suv was traveling much faster than the posted speed limit. The photo shows the accident scene to be an intersection.

      There's too many variables here; for us to immediately jump to the conclusion that "zomg! Some teenager was FLYING in a giant, evil Mack truck, while texting, and smoking crack, and intentionally mowed down an innocent family!"..

      This accident is an aweful tragedy. Noone in their right mind would dispute that. We don't have enough information at our disposal however to assume the driver was guilty of negligence.

      Ill say it again.. If this happened in a 25 MPH zone; id be calling for the driver's head on a stick! This was not the case though.

      the accident that caused that much significant damage to the vehicle clearly indicates he was well out of the "speed limit" if he was doing under 70mph i'd be surprised to be honest. to tear a wheel away from the car, cause the ripple in the back end of the escalade as well as pop out the windows... yeah speed was 100% a factor.

      also. take into account the initial point of impact, and how far the vehicle traveled to its final resting spot. that's quite a bit of distance from where the hydrant is.
      Last edited by dieselraver; 04-08-2012 at 11:59 AM.

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      04-08-2012 12:01 PM #72
      Another case of people dying unexpectedly, to which I feel sadness and condolences for the families of both the bicyclists and the driver (I'm sure the parents of the driver will be going through enough also). No doubt the driver will feel remorse also, and will have his own suffering.

      Conclusion: Enjoy life while it's yours.

    3. Member SpeedyD's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 12:05 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by dubinsincuwereindiapers View Post
      Not a single poster in this thread blamed the victims.

      Reading Comprehension > You
      Who knows if it even was the kids fault, people on bicycles do some stupid **** at times
      I agree. However; we can't just assume that the driver of the suv is at fault, when someone was riding bicycle with a child on what pretty much amounts to a highway.
      they were jus 2 people that were caught in the middle of a bad situation or maybe they were the ones to cause it.
      These are just the first 3.

      I'm the one with comprehension problems?
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      04-08-2012 12:09 PM #74
      Considering the possibility that the driver didn't intentionally kill the cyclists does not amount to victim blaming.

      If I say, "I like ice cream" it doesn't mean I don't like cake also. Comprende?

    5. Member impact's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 12:12 PM #75
      This is the car lounge, where it's always the biker's fault. Have you seen the other thread where a car hit a bicycle on a bridge and tried to run away? The responses were the same...

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      04-08-2012 12:16 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      Considering the possibility that the driver didn't intentionally kill the cyclists does not amount to victim blaming.

      If I say, "I like ice cream" it doesn't mean I don't like cake also. Comprende?
      All 3 of the statements I quoted reference fault, 2 of them use the actual word and the third actually postulates that the cyclists were at fault. If you are absolving one party of fault in a 2-party accident, you are blaming the other party. ¿Comprende?
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      04-08-2012 12:17 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by impact View Post
      This is the car lounge, where it's always the biker's fault. Have you seen the other thread where a car hit a bicycle on a bridge and tried to run away? The responses were the same...
      I know. Now that we know they were on the sidewalk, I can't wait to see the excuses people will make for this reckless idiot.
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      04-08-2012 12:20 PM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by SpeedyD View Post
      These are just the first 3.

      I'm the one with comprehension problems?
      I have ZERO problem with my comprehension.

      Ill repeat myself. Noone blamed the victims.

      YOU automatically assume vehicular manslaughter, without a shred of proof. I have seen zero evidence that proves this was caused by a malicious action, or negligence of the driver.

      Its a tragedy, and my heart truly goes out to the families of the departed.

      That said; I refuse to pass judgment on the driver based on emotional outcry.

    9. 04-08-2012 12:23 PM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by dubinsincuwereindiapers View Post
      YOU automatically assume vehicular manslaughter, without a shred of proof.
      The driver was arrested for vehicular manslaughter

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      04-08-2012 12:27 PM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by Air-over-water View Post
      Being arrested, and charged with a crime does not prove guilt at all. In cases like this; its essentially procedure.

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      04-08-2012 02:26 PM #81
      My heart goes out to the victims.

      Dubb'd Escalade in the reigns of a teenager = troubling

    12. Member SpeedyD's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 03:45 PM #82
      Driver looks like a real winner.

      Sent from my basement using two tin cans and a string.

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      04-08-2012 05:06 PM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by ZackaryMac View Post
      No doubt the driver will feel remorse also, and will have his own suffering.
      People always seem to say something like this in tragedies where the wreckless and selfish behavior of one person ruins many lives. But, sociopaths usually don't feel any remorse for anyone, or any action.

      The ridiculous real-life-reality-show-clown in the picture above (if that is indeed him) is probably pretty sorry he's missing his spiffy sneakers, his Caddy, and his dubs, but I doubt he's very sorry about much else. That's why we can hope he does some hard time.

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      04-08-2012 05:12 PM #84
      How sad.

      Quote Originally Posted by dubinsincuwereindiapers View Post
      I have seen zero evidence that proves this was caused by a malicious action, or negligence of the driver.
      Unless this 17 year old had a sudden medical issue (and if he did, why was he arrested immediately after accident injury treatment?), or the Escalade developed a mechanical malfunction (yeah, right), how could it not be driver negligence?? It's still under investigation, but my money is on this being yet another kid who can't put his freakin' cell phone down.
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      04-08-2012 05:36 PM #85
      This reminds me of a similar accident in Toronto this past week. Thankfully, no pedistrians were hit, but a 19 year old was driving a Range Rover at a speed in excess of 200km/h in a 50 km/h zone...his passenger was killed, the Range Rover ripped in half (with some wreckage thrown 2 blocks ahead)....I have no use for drunk drivers at all, but at the same time, part of me thinks...that 19 year old kid didn't wake up and say "I wanna kill someone"....his life is over (rightfully so) but at the same time, its such a waste.







      He was charged with:

      - Criminal Negligence Causing Death
      - Impaired Driving Causing Death
      - Dangerous Driving Causing Death
      - Over 80mg of alcohol causing death

      As I stated before...I have no use for drunk drivers. My Mom was in a vehicle driven by a driver who was intoxicated and a simple twist of fate saved her life...she wasn't wearing her seatbelt and was ejected from the Corvette (which exploded on impact). Despite breaking everything from her waist down and having 87 orthopedic procedures since 1977, she still lives with the emotional and physical scars. An accident is one thing, but when you get behind the wheel drunk...well...bottom line is that if you are old enough to drink, you are old enough to know the consequences of your actions.





      Last edited by A320FlyGuy; 04-08-2012 at 05:48 PM.
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      04-08-2012 05:57 PM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by Air-over-water View Post

      I think he has been riding bikes for over 25 years.
      Tony Hawk is known for his skateboarding, not cycling.

    17. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      04-08-2012 06:42 PM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by sucking chest wound View Post
      People always seem to say something like this in tragedies where the wreckless and selfish behavior of one person ruins many lives. But, sociopaths usually don't feel any remorse for anyone, or any action.

      The ridiculous real-life-reality-show-clown in the picture above (if that is indeed him) is probably pretty sorry he's missing his spiffy sneakers, his Caddy, and his dubs, but I doubt he's very sorry about much else. That's why we can hope he does some hard time.
      You assume someone in a car accident, even if he is at fault is a sociopath? Really?
      Unless you know the kid, that's pretty bold.
      Quote Originally Posted by kamzcab86 View Post
      Unless this 17 year old had a sudden medical issue (and if he did, why was he arrested immediately after accident injury treatment?), or the Escalade developed a mechanical malfunction (yeah, right), how could it not be driver negligence?? It's still under investigation, but my money is on this being yet another kid who can't put his freakin' cell phone down.
      He could have been cut off or something. This is a 45mph area.
      Even if he was negligent (which would lead to a misdemeanor), which I admit is a strong possibility, I'm sorry if I'm not quick to judge. Who hasn't made mistakes while driving? A small mistake while driving can kill.
      I know I'm in tCL where everyone is a perfect driver who has never made a mistake while driving, but still. I don't have a stake in this thing, I don't know anyone involved. It is a ****ing tragedy that two people died and I'm not going to argue there should be no consequence. But I'm not going to judge some 17 year old kid without more information. And I'm certainly not going to cheer the destruction of another life in our ****ed up judicial system.

      Quote Originally Posted by A320FlyGuy View Post
      As I stated before...I have no use for drunk drivers.
      All reports indiacte this guy was stone cold sober. Hope that helps.
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    18. Member SpeedyD's Avatar
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      04-08-2012 07:38 PM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      This is a 45mph area.
      Reports indicate he was traveling in the neighborhood of 80 MPH.
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    19. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      04-08-2012 07:56 PM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by SpeedyD View Post
      Reports indicate he was traveling in the neighborhood of 80 MPH.
      What reports? Lay eyewitnesses? Are these the same people who scream at cars doing 20mph in a 25mph to slow down?

      That accident just doesn't look like an 80 mph accident. It looks sub-60, even accounting for braking. I think 45-50mph is certainly possible.

      And even if so, I'm still not going to cheer the incarceration of a 17 year old. This is different from saying he shouldn't be punished or even incarcerated (though I'm not sure the good it will do). It isn't going to bring anyone back. It is just a sad situation all around.
      Last edited by nm+; 04-08-2012 at 07:59 PM.
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      04-08-2012 08:41 PM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by Mrdeezy View Post
      accidents happen. Thats why they are called an accident.

      Let's get over this obsession of "justice" and look at things as they are.
      Are you joking? I really hope so. I didn't know anyone could be that stupid. You want to look at things how they are? Ok.

      The kid was on his cell phone (illegal, distracting)
      speeding
      and hit pedestrians on a SIDEWALK.
      If you don't think anything is wrong with that you have mental problems.

      I hope this kid rots in jail while being sold for no lube prison sex and packs of cigarettes.

    21. 04-08-2012 09:26 PM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by sucking chest wound View Post

      The ridiculous real-life-reality-show-clown in the picture above (if that is indeed him) is probably pretty sorry he's missing his spiffy sneakers, his Caddy, and his dubs, but I doubt he's very sorry about much else.
      Why, because he is black?
      Last edited by infraspinatus; 04-08-2012 at 09:29 PM.

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      04-08-2012 09:30 PM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by infraspinatus View Post
      Why, because he is black?
      This.. obvious racism is racist.

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      04-08-2012 09:39 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post

      All reports indiacte this guy was stone cold sober. Hope that helps.
      I was referring to the incident in Toronto...and if the guy in California was sober, then it's even worse.....he can't claim that his faculties were at all diminished. Not that drunk driving should ever be an excuse...
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      04-08-2012 10:49 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      What reports? Lay eyewitnesses? Are these the same people who scream at cars doing 20mph in a 25mph to slow down?

      That accident just doesn't look like an 80 mph accident. It looks sub-60, even accounting for braking. I think 45-50mph is certainly possible.

      And even if so, I'm still not going to cheer the incarceration of a 17 year old. This is different from saying he shouldn't be punished or even incarcerated (though I'm not sure the good it will do). It isn't going to bring anyone back. It is just a sad situation all around.
      I agree with you on trusting eyewitness speed accounts. Quite simply, few people (including people on here) are any good at estimating speeds of cars. When they're close to moving traffic, they almost always think the cars are all going way too fast, even though most of them would be driving the same speed if they were in their own cars.

      That said, I think that looks like more than a 45 mph accident. More specifically, that looks like 35-45 mph into the building, which would put him at a much higher initial speed. Before he hit that building, he may have braked, and he definitely hit a fire hydrant, a barrier curb, and two bicyclists. If you are still carrying enough speed to do that much damage after all of those impedences, then you were flying.
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      04-09-2012 12:49 AM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by Chmeeee View Post
      That said, I think that looks like more than a 45 mph accident. More specifically, that looks like 35-45 mph into the building, which would put him at a much higher initial speed. Before he hit that building, he may have braked, and he definitely hit a fire hydrant, a barrier curb, and two bicyclists. If you are still carrying enough speed to do that much damage after all of those impedences, then you were flying.
      I think the question is when did he hit what and where.
      I agree that that looks like ~35 mph impact to the front, I guess the question is at what point he hit what.
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      04-09-2012 03:20 AM #96
      Hmmm... we have cyclists minding their own business and using the public roads as they have a right to, and a total jerk-off in a car driving like a complete wad.

      If the recent cyclists thread is any indication, TCL should blame the father-daughter cyclists, not the guy driving way too fast for the conditions.

    27. Member stascom's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 03:26 AM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by Air-over-water View Post

      I think he has been riding bikes for over 25 years.
      No.


    28. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 03:41 AM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by Crob View Post
      I know I'll get a lot of hate, and "it's un-American" but SUV's and pickups should have a driver minimum age limit of 18 or 21. Or power/speed limited with a special governor for teen drivers. Why give an inexperienced driver a F-150? Or an Escalade? The parents of the teen in the Escalade are going to be financially ruined, and if you have teens and give them such vehicles, you run the risk of the same sort of financial ruin if they kill someone.
      Inexperience wasn't the issue here, idiocy was. I'm all in favour of idiots not driving at all, but it's not so easy to weed them out.

    29. 04-09-2012 03:42 AM #99
      Driver should be shot.

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      04-09-2012 03:42 AM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by Crob View Post
      I know I'll get a lot of hate, and "it's un-American" but SUV's and pickups should have a driver minimum age limit of 18 or 21. Or power/speed limited with a special governor for teen drivers. Why give an inexperienced driver a F-150? Or an Escalade? The parents of the teen in the Escalade are going to be financially ruined, and if you have teens and give them such vehicles, you run the risk of the same sort of financial ruin if they kill someone.
      The victims would've survived, if plowed by a Camry?

      We need stricter licensing requirements.

    31. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 03:47 AM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by stascom View Post
      We need stricter licensing requirements.
      Countries with stricter licensing requirements aren't significantly safer than the US.

    32. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 03:49 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by Crob View Post
      Better chances of survival being hit by a Camry, and I don't object to stricter licensing requirements or raising the minimum driving age to 18.
      The odds of survival may have been higher if the idiot was driving a Camry, but the problem remains: this wasn't a result of age or inexperience, it was a result of idiocy. Limiting access to certain cars based on age or experience has nothing to do with this situation.

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      04-09-2012 03:50 AM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by Crob View Post
      Germany begs to differ.
      Driving in Germany is not significantly safer than driving in the US.

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      04-09-2012 03:56 AM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by Crob View Post
      Yes, yes it is. No shredded tire debris left on the roadways, drivers actually watch their mirrors and use their signals, are respectful and move out of the way for faster traffic behind them, road surfaces in better shape, no wildlife that wanders out onto the autobahns, plus a signage system that is multiple decades ahead of the USA's. Also lorries or big rigs don't go any faster than 110kmh.
      Anecdotal evidence. The plural of anecdote is not "data."

      Germany's rate of death per billion km driven is 7.2. The US' is 8. Assuming all else is equal (and it's not), stricter driver licensing seems to have next to no effect on safety.

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      04-09-2012 04:03 AM #105
      "Inexperience wasn't the issue here, idiocy was. I'm all in favour of idiots not driving at all, but it's not so easy to weed them out."


      no. you can certainly make distinctions - and impose disparate rules - for empirical truths. young drivers are factually poorer drivers. for many youngsters, there are even physical limitations - reach, sightlines, etc - to drive such monstrosities effectively.

      in many countries, the driving age is 21. drinking is seen to be the sort of thing to be "tested" in one's wild and crazy youth. driving is seen as more of a responsibility with consequence for others, ie, adult-like.

      i'm all for testing for idiocy and reducing the freedoms and rights of morons. indiscriminate breeding comes to mind. but we usually don't know they're idiots until after the fact, so unless we find the stupid gene and a stomach for inequality, we are left with responsible and intelligent governance. a weight class limit based on age seems entirely reasonable.

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