Father, 9 year old daughter dead after speeding teen in Escalade mows them down.

[Jader Pack]

teach these kids to drive better, if we took driving as seriously as football there would be no accidents.

Which country with "better" driver training is significantly safer to drive in than the US? None? Then why do you people keep talking about this like it's a licensing issue when it clearly isn't?

[Jader Pack]

Maybe. I can think fo some reasonable reasons why the defendant might not have been negligent. For example, a 2nd car.
Also, that isn't the only element. For veh manslaughter in CA you must prove negligence and a violation of law.

I'm not sure how a second vehicle could cause the driver to exceed the speed limit.

Also, wouldn't driving at an excessive rate of speed to the point of losing control of your vehicle and slamming into a bunch of things (including innocent people) be both a violation of the law (speeding) and negligence? Serious question.

[nm+]

I'm not sure how a second vehicle could cause the driver to exceed the speed limit.

Also, wouldn't driving at an excessive rate of speed to the point of losing control of your vehicle and slamming into a bunch of things (including innocent people) be both a violation of the law (speeding) and negligence? Serious question.

Violating the speed limit is not in itself negligence. It can be, but it depends on the situation.
I still don't believe the 80mph thing anyhow. Lay eyewitnesses say all sorts of crazy stuff re: speed. That looks like a 35mph impact, which would be consistent with a roughly 45mph speed.
Of course, mere negligence and an illegal act only gets you a misdemeanor anyhow and a long ass license revocation.

[Jader Pack]

Violating the speed limit is not in itself negligence. It can be, but it depends on the situation.
I still don't believe the 80mph thing anyhow. Lay eyewitnesses say all sorts of crazy stuff re: speed. That looks like a 35mph impact, which would be consistent with a roughly 45mph speed.
Of course, mere negligence and an illegal act only gets you a misdemeanor anyhow and a long ass license revocation.

Huh. I'm definitely not up on my criminal law (as you can see), but it just seems nuts that someone can lose control of their vehicle on a clear day with dry pavement, kill two innocent people, and not see the inside of a jail cell.

Not a criticism of US law, either. We've had our fair share of street racers and such killing innocent people and getting suspended sentences or house arrest or other such nonsense.

I do get (and generally agree) that the justice system is less about punishment than about reform, but I do think (and, at least in Canada, the law states) that punishment is also an important function. Driving so irresponsibly that you kill someone calls for punishment.

[nm+]

Huh. I'm definitely not up on my criminal law (as you can see), but it just seems nuts that someone can lose control of their vehicle on a clear day with dry pavement, kill two innocent people, and not see the inside of a jail cell.

Intent is a pretty big deal here. I actually think a misdo with a heavier license consequence would be better than prison or long jail sentences. We've tried long jail sentences in california. They don't work.
You send this kid to youth Authority or even a more local placement with gang bangers and those who have committed serious offenses? That's going to be a turn for the bad, not the good.
Jail and prison makes people feel better, but it doesn't really do anything useful in all but the worst cases.

[Jader Pack]

Intent is a pretty big deal here. I actually think a misdo with a heavier license consequence would be better than prison or long jail sentences. We've tried long jail sentences in california. They don't work.
You send this kid to youth Authority or even a more local placement with gang bangers and those who have committed serious offenses? That's going to be a turn for the bad, not the good.
Jail and prison makes people feel better, but it doesn't really do anything useful in all but the worst cases.

I agree with everything you say. Emotionally, though, I'm simply not able to accept it.

[nm+]

I agree with everything you say. Emotionally, though, I'm simply not able to accept it.

Emotions need to stay the **** out of the justice system unless we're talking about drug addiction or mental health (where we need more sympathy, also money)

[thygreyt]

This suks

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

[Jader Pack]

Emotions need to stay the **** out of the justice system unless we're talking about drug addiction or mental health (where we need more sympathy, also money)

Same response as before. Good thing I'm not a judge, I guess.

[feels_road]

It's dumb to ride bikes...

Considering it conserves resources, does not pollute the environment, and is good exercise that leads to a longer, healthier life - my judgement is that it is a lot smarter than your post.

Also, sidewalk is for foot traffic, not bicycles.

In California, it is not only common sense but legal and encouraged for kids under the age of 13 to ride on the sidewalk. I have never heard of a case in which an accompanying adult was chastised for doing the same thing, for educational and protective reasons.

And, clearly, a sidewalk is safer than the street or even a bicycle lane (the latter of which does not exist in most of California).

[guy022077]

Which country with "better" driver training is significantly safer to drive in than the US? None? Then why do you people keep talking about this like it's a licensing issue when it clearly isn't?

i cant answer that, having never been tested in another country, i'm saying we dont take it seriously here. Imagine if this kid had failed the more difficult test, would his parents have given him the car?

time and time again we see these accidents with teen drivers, not many of them involve stolen cars.
they are driving their parents cars. if these kids didnt have licences their folks wouldnt give them cars (in most cases) and they wouldnt be killing other people. Better training in most cases in most things makes better, more capable people.

[Air-over-water]

Crazy asking prices are not sale prices.

I was looking at what houses have sold for in CA.
Around here $50k gets you a house(not trailer)/garage/land with some $$ to spare.

*edited for monies*

[Chmeeee]

In California, it is not only common sense but legal and encouraged for kids under the age of 13 to ride on the sidewalk. I have never heard of a case in which an accompanying adult was chastised for doing the same thing, for educational and protective reasons.

And, clearly, a sidewalk is safer than the street or even a bicycle lane (the latter of which does not exist in most of California).

Agreed on it being safer for young children who are dawdling along at low speed, and thus the associated parents. However as general rule for adult bicylists, it is most definitely not safer. This is of course not relevant to this incident, there was no safe place for these people other than 20 feet further up or down the street.

From another thread:

http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/Moritz2.htm

[Air-over-water]

Afghanistan?

Close, it was meant to be $50k.

[feels_road]

... as general rule for adult bicylists, it is most definitely not safer. This is of course not relevant to this incident, there was no safe place for these people other than 20 feet further up or down the street.

From another thread:

Surely, crashes with pedestrians are quite common when bicyclists use sidewalks. But fatal accidents, at low speeds? I don't think so.

Based on the experience reported by these cyclists, the 'average' cyclist in this group could be expected to ride for 11 years before having such a crash. Falls accounted for 59% of the incidents while running into a fixed object happened 14% of the time. Moving motor vehicles were involved in 11% of the crashes and another bicycle in 9%. A RELATIVE DANGER INDEX is calculated which shows that streets with bike lanes have a significantly lower crash rate then either major or minor streets without any bicycle facilities (38 and 56% respectively).

[MatchStick]

In California, it is not only common sense but legal and encouraged for kids under the age of 13 to ride on the sidewalk. I have never heard of a case in which an accompanying adult was chastised for doing the same thing, for educational and protective reasons.

this x1000... and its the same in probably every state. the way it's usually written is that bikes with less than a certain wheel diameter are allowed to be ridden on the sidewalk.

TCL needs to learn the rules of the f-ing road. I am not saying I am super awesome and always follow them. but at least I am aware of when I am breaking them...

JFC...

[Air-over-water]

TCL needs to learn the rules of the f-ing road.

Truth.

[Dave Zero]

Considering it conserves resources, does not pollute the environment, and is good exercise that leads to a longer, healthier life - my judgement is that it is a lot smarter than your post.



In California, it is not only common sense but legal and encouraged for kids under the age of 13 to ride on the sidewalk. I have never heard of a case in which an accompanying adult was chastised for doing the same thing, for educational and protective reasons.

And, clearly, a sidewalk is safer than the street or even a bicycle lane (the latter of which does not exist in most of California).

Not in this case NM, not in this case. Riding on the sidewalk in instead of the street got them killed.

I respect your inside view of the justice system, but your opinions on the penal system are just that.

I can understand not imprisoning perpetrators of victimless crimes, but the revolving door for things like property theft and driving while intoxicated needs to stop. These are people that hurt upstanding citizens and need to be separated from society, not to "teach them a lesson", but to remove the danger they present from where it can reach good, upstanding people. The good citizen's well being should be prioritized over the criminal. In other words, I don't give a rat's ass if he is reformed, let him rot until he's learned his lesson. If he doesn't learn his lessson, at least he is off the streets.

If there is no punishment, or meaningful punishment (not work release or fire camps for boys), associated with a crime, then why would anybody follow the laws at all? A 17 year old boy can kill just as well as an 18 year old man.

[1Point8TDan]

Not in this case NM, not in this case. Riding on the sidewalk in instead of the street got them killed.

Riding at that instant in time, in that exact location is what got them killed street or sidewalk.

I can't think of a good reason to justify hitting people on the sidewalk other than gross negligence...

[nm+]

Not in this case NM, not in this case. Riding on the sidewalk in instead of the street got them killed.

Uhm, he's not me.

I respect your inside view of the justice system, but your opinions on the penal system are just that.

I can understand not imprisoning perpetrators of victimless crimes, but the revolving door for things like property theft and driving while intoxicated needs to stop. These are people that hurt upstanding citizens and need to be separated from society, not to "teach them a lesson", but to remove the danger they present from where it can reach good, upstanding people. The good citizen's well being should be prioritized over the criminal. In other words, I don't give a rat's ass if he is reformed, let him rot until he's learned his lesson. If he doesn't learn his lessson, at least he is off the streets.

If there is no punishment, or meaningful punishment (not work release or fire camps for boys), associated with a crime, then why would anybody follow the laws at all? A 17 year old boy can kill just as well as an 18 year old man.

Yet, we basically abolished CYA in this state and the juvi crime rate is basically the lowest it has ever been. Recidivism has gone down dramatically.

[feels_road]

Uhm, he's not me.

Uhm, are you sure?

we basically abolished CYA in this state and the juvi crime rate is basically the lowest it has ever been. Recidivism has gone down dramatically.

BTW, I agree with you --- many tens of countries have done the same with measurably positive outcome over the past half a century, or longer.

[VTECeateR]

*** and the plot thickens ***

Double-Fatal Collision Suspect Was Apparently Cited for Narcotics & Weapons Possession One Week Before Tragic Crash

April 19, 2012 9:18 am · 16 comments

The 17-year-old suspect who police say was responsible for the double-fatal collision on April 7th in Concord, was apparently cited for narcotics & weapons violations by the Walnut Creek Police just one week before the tragic crash.
The suspect was driving a Cadillac Escalade with a license plate number that started with “5VSX” (according to the photo shown above) when he allegedly hit & killed two bicyclists on April 7th. According to the Walnut Creek Police daily log, a Cadillac Escalade with a license plate of “5VSX200″ was pulled over on March 30, 2012 at about 10:53pm, and sources say the driver of the vehicle was cited and released to his parents after an illegal knife and marijuana were found in the 2002 White Cadillac Escalade.
According to an anonymous source, the incident on March 30th started long before the drugs and weapon were allegedly found.
Here’s what a tipster told Claycord.com regarding the incident….
WCPD pulled over a White Escalade. WCPD along with ATF officers searched the vehicle. After this search they released the juvenile and SUV. The juvenile returned several hours later and the juvenile allegedly retrieved something from the bushes near where the vehicle search took place. He was spotted by neighbors and fled. They called the WCPD not knowing that Officers were already watching the location. WCPD told my friend they had see this and had already pulled over the juvenile around the corner.
The Concord Police are still investigating the double-fatal crash that occurred on April 7th. The suspect is currently out of jail awaiting possible charges for allegedly killing two people.

http://claycord.com/2012/04/19/exclu...-tragic-crash/

[VTECeateR]

*** and the plot thickens ***

http://claycord.com/2012/04/19/exclu...-tragic-crash/

Well, it turns out it was pot and a blade but still, not exactly great behavior for a 17-y/o MINOR.

[SchnellFowVay]

*** and the plot thickens ***

http://claycord.com/2012/04/19/exclu...-tragic-crash/

Good info.

But the plot does not really thicken. This kid, who is right on the verge of being a full-blown adult, is also on the verge of becoming a career criminal and a ward of the state in one way or another.

It's upsetting, I realize. But the proper question right now is not how do we punish an idiotic 17 year old kid, but how do we make him understand what he did, and turn his life around so that he can contribute positively to society.

[dieselraver]

*** and the plot thickens ***

http://claycord.com/2012/04/19/exclu...-tragic-crash/

Seriously hope he rots in jail


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and my U S Robotics 14,400 baud modem on aol 2.5

[SchnellFowVay]

Seriously hope he rots in jail

Why? So society can pay $XX,XXX per year for his prison stay? So we can be absolutely sure that he will be turned into a criminal and drug addict by the time he is released? So that we can ensure that he will never be hired in a decent job after being released, and will depend on social assistance his whole life?

Putting the kid in jail won't bring back the dead. Also, instead of "repenting" for his crimes, he will be forced to join a prison gain, deal drugs, etc., and become a hardened criminal.

[Air-over-water]

Why? So society can pay $XX,XXX per year for his prison stay? So we can be absolutely sure that he will be turned into a criminal and drug addict by the time he is released? So that we can ensure that he will never be hired in a decent job after being released, and will depend on social assistance his whole life?

Putting the kid in jail won't bring back the dead. Also, instead of "repenting" for his crimes, he will be forced to join a prison gain, deal drugs, etc., and become a hardened criminal.

Send him to Texas, he will leave in a pine wood box.

[SchnellFowVay]

Send him to Texas, he will leave in a pine wood box.

Not for an accidental death.

If it was first degree murder, then he may leave in a pine box.

[Air-over-water]

Not for an accidental death.

If it was first degree murder, then he may leave in a pine box.

Put him in genpop and he might not last long.

[Bones_Jones]

Why? So society can pay $XX,XXX per year for his prison stay? So we can be absolutely sure that he will be turned into a criminal and drug addict by the time he is released? So that we can ensure that he will never be hired in a decent job after being released, and will depend on social assistance his whole life?

Putting the kid in jail won't bring back the dead. Also, instead of "repenting" for his crimes, he will be forced to join a prison gain, deal drugs, etc., and become a hardened criminal.

not sure if serious?

[roadtripper]

awesome. the prison culture. interesting dichotomy we have here in our society.

the plot does not thicken. there is nothing nefarious about any random 17 year old in an escalade in cali trying to toss a joint into the bushes when he's about to be harassed by the police for being any random 17 year old in an escalade in cali. that they released him and then sat and watched the bushes tells you that they did not have enough to go on to make a clean arrest during the initial encounter. so should he even have been pulled over?

now all of this is separate from the fatal accident of course. which is why the plot does not thicken with this circumstantial hearsay (i love the part at the end: "the cop told me.") on an unrelated issue. does this increase the odds he was impaired at the time of the crash? conceivably. but rest assured, he was fluid tested out the wazoo, and it will all come out. personally, it's sounding more and more to me like he is the trashhole we suspect. i wouldn't mind being on the jury to determine his responsibility.

but all this secondary news bit, now, proves is our society's passion for rush to judgement, willingness to sacrifice privacy and justice (if it wasn't news last week, why is it news now?) in the pursuit thereof, and the pathetic demonization of marijuana. even if the kid tests positive, and oooh, won't that be a juicy headline, it may or may not determine whether he was high that day, that hour, or that week. if everyone with a pocketknife and a joint that doesn't want to be hassled by the police in california was a potential killer, you'd have a lot more than a speeding escalade when you are riding two kids on bikes along four lanes of traffic to watch out for.

let the legal process work out. if that kid is guilty of recklessly killing a father and his child, he will pay dearly for his crimes. but you, the newspaper reporter, and the cop who "got him" on a joint and a pocket knife the week before, have nothing to do with that process.

[roadtripper]

and i love how some undetermined amount of untested pot ditched in the bushes and left there by the cops for four hours turns into a "narcotics and weapons" headline. ooh, you so dange-rus.

[SchnellFowVay]

not sure if serious?

I am DEAD serious. Jail turns the majority of people who go there into criminals, if they weren't already criminals.

[2.0T_Convert]

I am DEAD serious. Jail turns the majority of people who go there into criminals, if they weren't already criminals.

What sort of punishment should be dealt instead?

[quinntendopower1]

that looks like the subway commercial scene.

was the ****er on a phone?

he must have learned how to drive from an old person though, that is some serious lack of attention.