: ) Why NOT to install a turbo on the G60 8v engine that was engineered for a supercharger!

[JBETZ]

I thought I would stir this topic up a bit... time to bring this back for the 8v guys thinking about real performance

First of all I want to start with no dis-respect to all of you that have the turbo running on your 8v. We have many turbo customers and we appreciate the business and support.
I have done more than a few myself and they can at times run correctly and be fun.
Still this combination is slower than a supercharger on this engine can cause some serious nightmares and frustration.

I've owned and ran many a turbo car...I have one right now. I'm switching back to SC. As you all know we sell both turbo kits and supercharger kits.

* The G60 8V engine has very heavy weight internal parts.
* The crank, rods, pistons and even the harmonic balancer are very heavy and I mean very heavy, tank like.
* These parts and the engine were specifically engineered for instant, smooth and the long boost curve of a supercharger. The management is really designed and engineered for the boost of a supercharger. This is a very important part of this.
* The power band on the G60 8v is short...they pull to about 6k RPM. The turbo just starts to go at about the mid point of the RPM band.
* The flow of the head works better with the smooth linear boost of the supercharger.
* The digifant 1 G60 management system can have some serious issues trying to deal with the boost curve spiking in and out, jumping around.
* Any turbo is just a lower performance option, less torque and really works against what was intended here.

I've done a few of these set ups in our shop here and sold at a least a dozen turbo kits for the G60. So I'm speaking from experience.

The best choice for this engine is the good old g-lader or another positive displacement supercharger.

Bottom line, the turbo on this engine will not match the performance of the supercharger FACT!

I've had a $1000 dollars on the table for anyone that can beat our 1/4 mile time with a supercharger on the G60 8v engine running the digifant management, stock engine internals. The money has sat on the table for now over ten years!

Ok, lets flame away....call me an ***hat, db and tool.
Lets GO, I love it

[Prof315]

Ok I'll bite .

Things I absolutely agree with:

1: heavy internals; yes they are and yes it can cause spooling problems especially with a big journal bearing turbo.

2: management; the factory digi 1 ECU is without question set up for the supercharger and the timing curve especially is not turbo friendly.

I don't agree with:

1: Cylinder head flow; Who says you can't have smooth linear boost with a turbo? That's what electronic boost control is for.

2: Power band; Ok the power band is done at 6000 rpms.... big deal, just match the turbo to the power band. I mean come on, stop and think about it, deisels have a narrow power band, and oh wait a minute they also have very heavy internals. But there are turbo deisels out there that make HUGE power.

Other comments on turbo vs super:

Turbos are lighter than superchargers and don't eat power to make power. They are also capable of producing and sustaining FAR more boost than a supercharger. They are however more complicated to install in general.

Comments concerning Digifant 1 engine management in general:

It's technology that is well over 20 years old, it's fairly primitive and the boards are known to fail. I have over 20 Digi 1 ECUs that are burnt up in a box in the garage. ANY standalone system currently on the market that can control fuel and spark is more capable than Digi 1.

[JBETZ]

Ok I'll bite .

Things I absolutely agree with:

1: heavy internals; yes they are and yes it can cause spooling problems especially with a big journal bearing turbo.

2: management; the factory digi 1 ECU is without question set up for the supercharger and the timing curve especially is not turbo friendly.

I don't agree with:

1: Cylinder head flow; Who says you can't have smooth linear boost with a turbo? That's what electronic boost control is for.

2: Power band; Ok the power band is done at 6000 rpms.... big deal, just match the turbo to the power band. I mean come on, stop and think about it, deisels have a narrow power band, and oh wait a minute they also have very heavy internals. But there are turbo deisels out there that make HUGE power.

Other comments on turbo vs super:

Turbos are lighter than superchargers and don't eat power to make power. They are also capable of producing and sustaining FAR more boost than a supercharger. They are however more complicated to install in general.

Comments concerning Digifant 1 engine management in general:

It's technology that is well over 20 years old, it's fairly primitive and the boards are known to fail. I have over 20 Digi 1 ECUs that are burnt up in a box in the garage. ANY standalone system currently on the market that can control fuel and spark is more capable than Digi 1.

Thank you for biting back

* My point with the head flow is that it is limited. The turbo will boost up and try to cram more air than the head can flow and hold it back.

* Your diesel comparo is jut not apples to apples. These engines and vehicles get seriously loaded to assist in getting the boost up early.

* The old argument that supers take power to turn is really just null and void. Every action of energy requires a equal action... A turbo takes exhaust energy and will hold back the flow to make it. The power consumption is their for both. It is really just about making it efficiently.

* Your weight point is also really not something that will make a substantial improvement on performance. Pretty sure they are really close to the same weight.

If someone can make a Stock G60v turbo on stock management run quicker on this engine than the BBM Twin Screw... I have $1000 bucks to give them.

I have had maybe 6+ turbo cars and I hate the lag....shift....wait...wait...ah boost. Shift.....wait....wait boost. This really sucks on the 8v and makes them slower!
Even the small ball bearing turbos lag...
Supercharger comes on like a light switch and nearly instant. Makes for a very quick car and an amazing match for the 8v.

The bottom line is that a supercharger is quicker on this engine and to this day it is still a fact.
My main reason for this post is that most people just think otherwise and get caught up in all the turbo hype.
I'd choose a really good supercharged engine over any turbo engine every time.

[petethepug]

Turbo lag .... It's a thing of the past and there's a ton of ways to get around it now. It's a privilege to have driven a Saab 900 turbo and a 930 turbo. Those motors come alive when the turbo spools up. It's a little embarrassing off the line though.

The bottom line is that early turbo cars didn't have the technology (ecu) or turbine technology that's available today. With that being said, a turbo can easily exceed the limits of a G Ladder. If you put a turbo on a car engineered (ecu) and designed (G60 head flowed for 158 hp) for a positive displacement charger (G Ladder / Lysholm, etc) limits are set on it's performance. Beyond that throw better parts, tuning & cash at anything and you can remedy the turbo lag a turbo G60 is inherent to. Specificly I think that's what Johnny's say'n

[JBETZ]

I have had cars with the latest and greatest ball bearing turbo tech...they still lag and take time to come on.
Unless you go really small... even then there is a pause for the boost to hit.
I think the best modern match for a turbo is a car with an automated manual. That keeps them in the boost.

I'll up my anti....
Take a stock G60 engine run any turbo you want with any stand alone.
I'll still put my money on the supercharger on this engine.
Turbo no matter what, does not match this engine as well as a supercharger.

[Prof315]

I have had cars with the latest and greatest ball bearing turbo tech...they still lag and take time to come on.
Unless you go really small... even then there is a pause for the boost to hit.
I think the best modern match for a turbo is a car with an automated manual. That keeps them in the boost.

I'll up my anti....
Take a stock G60 engine run any turbo you want with any stand alone.
I'll still put my money on the supercharger on this engine.
Turbo no matter what, does not match this engine as well as a supercharger.

Damn and I don't have a single PG laying around any more. The last one went to the scrapper in my totalled 90 rado. (as extra weight/money)

[Prof315]

One thing you stated concerning the PG cylinder head I'm not going to argue too hard about, it is somewhat limited flow wise but that is inherent to most mass produced OEM 2V/cylinder heads.

And please don't misunderstand me, I like forced induction PERIOD . Turbo, supercharger they both rock. I do think the G-Lader is a misbegotten POS, great idea in theory with horrid execution in reality. Scroll compressors are quite efficient, just ask the A/C industry, but definately not so good for a supercharger.

[petethepug]

I never thought about that. I'm running a Lysholm on my LG (fridge).

That's the intrigue of the G60 though. Just the fact that it runs despite all it's shortcomings.

The grey market 914-6 I ran a 2.7 w/ 2x3 webers. I enjoyed that same freak as what's going on in my G60. It's a hell of a lot more comfortable not having a 225 hp motor inches away from your back. On 90+ days its was no fun to sit in a black, air cooled car at a stoplight. On the other hand it's the only car you can drive in the rain above 60mph with the top off and stay dry.

Just the fact my G60 is in performance running condition shocks the $/:! out of most who know what it is. The more obsolete the G60 becomes the higher its value. That's just a VW & Porsche factiod.

[rodperformance]

Hi there folk's i think it's a battle of delivery,so everyone is good.you chose between instant power or vtec type of power,my self having run both i like them for diferent reasons like drag i would go turbo but circuit with lots of turns i like the sc.daily drive also would like a sc,later guys Roderick

[JBETZ]

Damn and I don't have a single PG laying around any more. The last one went to the scrapper in my totalled 90 rado. (as extra weight/money)

We scrapped about ten G60 PG engines when we moved the shop from WA to OR
Wish we would have kept a few now...

[efritsch]

I've still got the one that I pulled out of my Syncro with 589,000 on it. I replaced it with an ABA and I have to say, the ABA with the G60 hauls my Syncro Wagon much, much faster but I wouldn't switch to a turbo for the life of me.

[JBETZ]

I've still got the one that I pulled out of my Syncro with 589,000 on it. I replaced it with an ABA and I have to say, the ABA with the G60 hauls my Syncro Wagon much, much faster but I wouldn't switch to a turbo for the life of me.

now is that in km ore miles
the ABA is a nice engine too...10% more displacement, lighter internals and great rod stroke ratio.
ok, old timer...just how old are you?
we have had a few customers up in Canada that did the G60 swap into their syncro vanagons...those guys love this engine for the meaty torque.
to the north

[KirinC]

We scrapped about ten G60 PG engines when we moved the shop from WA to OR
Wish we would have kept a few now...

Man I wish more than anything you guys were still up here..

Bought a g60 a year ago and I was also just recently informed you were in auburn, where I live. Could have walked down to your shop with my charger...forget shipping.
Good thing it needs apex strips now that you're in another state!

Either way, I have to agree with you; I love the G-lader and would prefer it over a turbo any day- For this motor at least. Everyone else seems to tell me otherwise, and ensure me my charger is going to blow up...Guess they're Jealous. Haha, 20k since a rebuild from you guys and still going strong-ish. Even without 4" of apex strips

[fox-16v]

Why could full throttle shifting not alleviate the lag? Good porting of the head and intake manifold with big valves would help wouldn't it? I am building a g60t right now and this thread caught my eye..

Also, you said stock internals but let's here some specifics for this challenge. Any weight reductions? Flywheel mods?

[JBETZ]

Why could full throttle shifting not alleviate the lag? Good porting of the head and intake manifold with big valves would help wouldn't it? I am building a g60t right now and this thread caught my eye..

Also, you said stock internals but let's here some specifics for this challenge. Any weight reductions? Flywheel mods?

Your going to full throttle shift with a cable actuated 02A. Hope you have a twelve pack of spare transmissions on hand.

Sure you could do a lightweight flywheel and harmonic balancer....still no go and little chance.
You see if you do this with a turbo...well then only fair that it would be done on the supercharger engine that it went against. So turbo will still loose. I'd bet the super engine would still whoop it even with it running a light weight flywheel and balancer.

[G60 Carat]

I don't think too many people have a otherwise stock PG converted to turbo. Pretty much all of them end up being some sort of ABA/PG Hybrid turbo. Or even mostly a 2.0 ABA with a turbo and running Digi 1 management. And then almost always some sort of aftermarket cam, and head porting.

It kinda gets to a point when you say, well If I'm changing the head to a crossflow, the G-lader to a turbo and the management to standalone, why not just build a 16v turbo and produce way more power for not much more money?

And that said, if you want to run a fast 1/4 mile time why start with an 8v counter flow? Why not at least start with a 16v or for that matter a VR6 swap is quite easy to source these days, and a budget turbo build on one of them can make a quick 300hp. Hell if you're running standalone anyways, you could put a 1.8T right into your what ever trans your running behind your G60. You could probably buy a complete 1.8T with reasonable miles for about the same as a good turbo to put on an 8v.

I no longer look at this thing as "what can I do with this engine", I look at it like "how fast can I go for X amount of dollars"

[JBETZ]

I don't think too many people have a otherwise stock PG converted to turbo. Pretty much all of them end up being some sort of ABA/PG Hybrid turbo. Or even mostly a 2.0 ABA with a turbo and running Digi 1 management. And then almost always some sort of aftermarket cam, and head porting.

It kinda gets to a point when you say, well If I'm changing the head to a crossflow, the G-lader to a turbo and the management to standalone, why not just build a 16v turbo and produce way more power for not much more money?

And that said, if you want to run a fast 1/4 mile time why start with an 8v counter flow? Why not at least start with a 16v or for that matter a VR6 swap is quite easy to source these days, and a budget turbo build on one of them can make a quick 300hp. Hell if you're running standalone anyways, you could put a 1.8T right into your what ever trans your running behind your G60. You could probably buy a complete 1.8T with reasonable miles for about the same as a good turbo to put on an 8v.

I no longer look at this thing as "what can I do with this engine", I look at it like "how fast can I go for X amount of dollars"

I will agree, yes people do all kinds of crazy combos and builds in these VW's.
However I do not agree that most people do all of these crazy custom combinations.
And this is coming from one of the companies that probably makes and sells more crazy combo parts than any other.
The vast majority of people just do bolt on parts and performance...
And yes if some do go crazy with their builds, most people go with the better flowing 16v and 20v engines.
Your point about how fast you can go for X amount of dollars is a good one. Time labor and parts are all part of this equation. So the best bang for your bucks is to keep the G60 8V and strap up a good modified g-lader or the BBM twin screw.

[G60 Carat]

....or Nitrous.

[JBETZ]

....or Nitrous.

like playing with dynamite on the digifant system

[efritsch]

now is that in km ore miles
the ABA is a nice engine too...10% more displacement, lighter internals and great rod stroke ratio.
ok, old timer...just how old are you?
we have had a few customers up in Canada that did the G60 swap into their syncro vanagons...those guys love this engine for the meaty torque.
to the north

It's in km, but it was the original PG that I finally yanked out. ABA with a 13lb flywheel is really nice. It's going to be expensive in gas if I don't stop driving the living hell out of it like I have been the last 4 days.

I am old enough to know better and young enough to do it again. I could not believe how much difference that 7 or 8 lbs off the flywheel and that extra little bit of displacement made. Next stop, aluminum pulley set.

Here's a serious question for you though. Would the change to the ABA account for a drop in boost pressure? When I pulled the PG out (7 months ago) the charger made 11-12lbs. Stage 3 charger, RSR outlet, rebuilt by you in 2010, stock pulley (I was too lazy to swap the 68 back on and was hoping running the stock pulley would prolong its life). Now that the 2.0L is in there, its making 8-9lbs of boost. Sounds fine, not blowing huge amounts of oil or anything.

Also, should I upgrade my injectors? I'm pretty sure that they are stock sized ones.

[JBETZ]

Yes, the 2.0L ABA is 10% larger so 10% less boost with the same size of charger pulley.
At the boost level you are at the stock injectors are just fine.

[scrapper]

QUOTE

JBETZ
I've done a few of these set ups in our shop here and sold at a least a dozen turbo kits for the G60. So I'm speaking from experience.

If you never seen any turbo produce a qtr mile time better then the charger guys what is the best you have seen done? Of course with stock internals etc like you mentioned at your shop.

[JBETZ]

QUOTE

If you never seen any turbo produce a qtr mile time better then the charger guys what is the best you have seen done? Of course with stock internals etc like you mentioned at your shop.

I'll be honest with you. I have never ran one myself at the track....a G60 turbo that is. Ran many of turbo cars tho. I can tell you this I've seen and raced some at the track....they are horribly slower and I mean horribly!

We held an event called Autoblitzkrieg at the Woodburn Or. drag strip... I think four or five years back. I had the $1000 dolla deal down for the ABA 8V Mk3 guys. We ended up racing two identical Mk3 GTI's. Ours had the twin screw BBM Stage III supercharger and the other car had the Kinetic / CTS Turbo Stage III kit. We both ran the exact same tires. Both cars were at about the same hp, the turbo car had a bit more hp.
We smoked this car so bad... I actually felt bad. Beat it by over 1 full sec on the 1/4 mile track.
These were equal weight, same engine, same tires....same cars. I mean it wasn't even close...it was a slaughter!
Superchargers on the 8v are quick!
To answer your question....haven't ever seen one get into the 13's, they pretty much suck on the G60 engine.
"edit" turbos pretty much suck on all 8v's. Unless you want to spend a ton of money and try to prove something, bad match for the 8'v.

[Glegor]

We scrapped about ten G60 PG engines when we moved the shop from WA to OR
Wish we would have kept a few now...

[G60 Carat]

I have a hard time believing that a good turbo build couldn't out quarter mile a G60 equipped 8v. But the problem is most turbo PG's I can find use at least ABA heads. (for obvious reasons, but this shouldn't really equal any more power, just easier turbo and intake placement. Valves and ports are the same size. But lots of these ABA/PG 1.80 turbo's put down around 190-210whp.

I've seen dyno charts for ABA turbos putting down 240+ hp. With a head spacer and under 15psi boost. Also seen ABA turbos with forged pistons putting down closer to 275-300hp on high boost and standalone. How can these cars not be faster?

But then again I have my doubts too many people have done too serious a Turbo counterflow, where would you put the turbo? Tiny little ones fit, but one that could support 20+psi likely wouldn't fit under the intake.


I do know that when my G60 finally goes boom (the charger not the tall block) I will likely be doing something turbo. Either ABA, or 16v/ABA hybrid, or just 16v, hell maybe even VRT. Although a billet displacer could be awfully cool, and maybe would allow for a smaller pulley? The problem I have is almost all my friends have moved onto faster, newer cars. 10 years ago my G60 MKII was competitive or faster then their cars (all running somewhere in the 14's to low 15's, stuff like an H22 and B16 powered EG civic's ) Now they all have cars like MazdaSpeed3, Cobalt SS Turbo, MKV GTi w/APR + bolt ons.

I've been using nitrous for the last 3 years just too keep pace. And let me tell you the G60 with a 55hp shot is basically the same (very slightly quicker) as the APR GTI in a roll on, and still slower then the Cobalt Turbo (beast of engine in those things). So it's become clear I'm going to need somewhere like +75-100hp what my car makes now. (guessing a 68mm an ported charger, it's like 165whp ish)


If I go 16vT, I'd like to keep running Digi 1 since I'm familiar with it. New injectors, and a 16v turbo chip and it should be possible right? Maybe I need to talk to BBM about a 16v/ABA G60...now that's cool

It's come down to put together a more powerful engine, or sell the VW and move on to something else. (But after over a decade with this car, I'm attached to it like a marriage)

[JBETZ]

Yes, more hp does not make for a quicker car... When we were running our drag Scirocco it would beat turbo cars that had much more hp, even cars that had an additional 100 hp. This red Honda was claiming to make over 350hp. We were making about 240 wheel hp. This chart shows the torque difference and the turbo still has more wheel hp. Also you have to account for turbo lag and believe me turbo lag is always a big deal when going up against a supercharged car.

[efritsch]

Wow. I wish I could afford a twin screw.

[JBETZ]

prof315 brought up diesel's.

Imagine a big diesel truck running a 300 hp 280 torque gasoline small block Chevy engine.
The truck would be soooo slow...it might barely even move.

The diesel engine lets say also makes 300 hp...but it also makes 600 ft. lbs of torque. Point being torque is really what moves a vehicle. Hp is a measurement of work performed over a time period. Torque is the ability to turn and move. Torque is key to a quick car....and superchargers rule in the torque dept. The PG G60 engine was engineered for torque, so matches the supercharger perfectly.

[Prof315]

I'm still not convinced that a PG turbo with a modern ball bearing turbo matched to the powerband and a good exhaust manifold won't at least equal the performance/ 1/4 mile times of a supercharged car. Sooner or later I'm sure to wind up with another PG and I'll have to try....

As far as efficiency goes though, sorry turbos have superchargers beat hands down. Fact: a typical supercharger eats between 15%-50% of the crankshaft horsepower while a turbo only takes 3% to 10%. Example: The MASSIVE roots blower on a 7000hp top fuel dragster requires between 750hp and 1000hp to spin up to 50psi!

[petethepug]

Proofs in the pudding. Pudding eating contest below
Lysholm is the apidamy of efficiency. For its time the G-Ladder was impressive. Modifications to increase boost was the writing on the wall for its demise.


Lysholm 1200A Supercharger

Garrett GT32

Garrett GT32 Press vs Flow

I used the Garrett GT32 as comparison since it's the hot ticket in turbine technology. The charts are the best way to compare apples to apples. For obtaining immediate, cost effective boost at low rpm on a PG (G60) motor, a supercharger is the way to go. A turbo will get you there and more but, the PG was not designed for the characteristics of a turbine from the factory.

Adiabatic Efficiency:
Screw Compressor Approx. 80%
G-Ladder Approx. 60%
GT32 Approx 68% - Heat soak will decrease this rating proportionally

[Prof315]

Actually Borg Warner EFR turbos are the current cutting edge in the turbo industry. (We won't talk about their supply problems though ) I'm pretty sure that a 6258 on a good manifold would hold it's own vs a twinscrew on a PG.

[petethepug]

I hear what your saying. The B/W 6258 will run you about $1.5K on the low end if you can find one new. It's easy to spend another $1-1.5K on the essentials for installation. If you opt for a stand alone management system throw down $500 to $1K. After all that you've got a PG head that's limited by flow characteristic once your boost goes up. The PG block is a lump compared to internals of a motor specifically built for a turbo.

A turbo can smoke a built Corrado G60 or Lysholm. The point Johnny's making is that it just costs a lot more to change a G60 to a turbo motor with the identical or greater performance characteristics. There's no magic combo to chip and bolt on to a G60 that will make it scream like it does with a STG III kit (cost wise).

Don't buy a kit, none of them out there are worth what they want for them, put one together yourself its easy, here is a quick list for ya:

turbo exhaust mani (with or without external waistegate flange thats up to you)
turbo of your choice
sns chip (give them your specs and they burn them for ya)
cone filter
boost controller (turbosmart has a nice manual one that works great and is around 100 bucks)
piping-----------exhust shop can throw something nice together
downpipe--------some exhust shops can help or point you to someone who can
anything I am forgetting?
also some things that are nice to help tune are a boost gauge, a/f guage, and a egt gauge anyway if you need anymore help just let me know, I went down this road last year.......

[nu2dubbing]

For me it was easy......both can and will grenade given enough time and abuse or digi fail. I rather replace a $300 turbo than a $1200 g60. I have never had the pleasure of owning a lysholm but the ability to turn into a paper weight instantly scares the sh!t out of me

[Prof315]

I hear what your saying. The B/W 6258 will run you about $1.5K on the low end if you can find one new. It's easy to spend another $1-1.5K on the essentials for installation. If you opt for a stand alone management system throw down $500 to $1K. After all that you've got a PG head that's limited by flow characteristic once your boost goes up. The PG block is a lump compared to internals of a motor specifically built for a turbo.

A turbo can smoke a built Corrado G60 or Lysholm. The point Johnny's making is that it just costs a lot more to change a G60 to a turbo motor with the identical or greater performance characteristics. There's no magic combo to chip and bolt on to a G60 that will make it scream like it does with a STG III kit (cost wise).

What essentials???? That's one of the many reasons I like the EFR so much..... big internal wastegate (3 different actuators available), built in DV, and a boost control solenoid already mounted and plumbed in. Hang it on the car, plumb it, run 1 vacuum line from the DV to the intake and wire up the boost solenoid DONE!

[petethepug]

Love me the turbo(s), just not for the G60 unless I swap to a 20V. I just rolled 100,000 clicks on the 2.7t and can't wait to Stg II or III it as part of the maintenance. If there was some way to hang a

• turbo
• intake
• and then chip

the stock PG motor and get the linear torque curve of the Allroad or s/c'd G60, I'd build it next. Show me some dyno runs sheets for just hanging a Borg Warner EFR or 6258 on a G60 and I'm a believer.