: ) Why NOT to install a turbo on the G60 8v engine that was engineered for a supercharger!

[fox-16v]

I understand the pg wasn't built for a turbo. But why can a lightened crank and lightened flywheel help the motor adapt to the different boost curve. Yes the cylinder head has poor flow, but I've seen some counter flow heads ported with bigger valves make good power.

[G60 Carat]

Allroad 2.7T...what turbo lag?

Hell I don't know how people say the 1.8T is laggy, but the one in my old Beetle 1.8T was pretty decent, you could feel it spool up but it was a very fast spool, by the time you did a quick clutch slip launch, it was at full chat. Unlike other turbo cars I have driven extensively. Like a XR4Ti, Mitsu Eclipse, WRX, hell even that Cobalt 2.0T, is like zzzzzzz snore...pfffftthsh...holy F*ckin sh1T. But with no lift shift, that car never drops out of boost once spooled, it's stupid fast for what it is. Faster then a modded GTI and Mazdaspeed, WRX, etc.

Then again with a S/C I don't need no lift shift, full boost as fast as you can get your foot to the floor. Maybe Jbetz is right on this supercharger thing after all.

[JBETZ]

What essentials???? That's one of the many reasons I like the EFR so much..... big internal wastegate (3 different actuators available), built in DV, and a boost control solenoid already mounted and plumbed in. Hang it on the car, plumb it, run 1 vacuum line from the DV to the intake and wire up the boost solenoid DONE!

turbo manifold, down pipe, ic tubing, hoses clamps, air intake with tube, hose clamp filter, oil feed and drain....ect.
those essentials.

[JBETZ]

I understand the pg wasn't built for a turbo. But why can a lightened crank and lightened flywheel help the motor adapt to the different boost curve. Yes the cylinder head has poor flow, but I've seen some counter flow heads ported with bigger valves make good power.

sure if you wanted to try to prove some point and spend thousands of extra dollars just to do it...
at this point you might as well install a 16v, 20v or vr6.

[Prof315]

turbo manifold, down pipe, ic tubing, hoses clamps, air intake with tube, hose clamp filter, oil feed and drain....ect.
those essentials.

Ok, but not another $1000-$1500 that's for sure.

[JBETZ]

Ok, but not another $1000-$1500 that's for sure.

And still a slug on the G60

I'm sure it just a fluke that we won the 2004 European car 1.8T time attach against oh....a dozen turbo cars when we ran a Supercharger. Same engine size 1.8T, or should I say 1.8SC for us.
And that's a 20v

[G60 Carat]

And still a slug on the G60

I'm sure it just a fluke that we won the 2004 European car 1.8T time attach against oh....a dozen turbo cars when we ran a Supercharger. Same engine size 1.8T, or should I say 1.8SC for us.
And that's a 20v

Ahaha the proof is in the pudding.

/thread

[Hedo]

I loved reading all this. I just got involved in the VW thing and bought '91 corrado with some BBM stuff in the engine bay. Having had a stage 3 SRT-4 ACR edition i can say i like the daily driving torque of the gLadder over the turbo i previously had.

I have been doing research on going turbo, 16vt conversions, 20vt conversions, ect,ect but they all seem expensive and overly complicated to install compared to upgrading to a BBM Lysholm for my Corrado. I feel i am more in favor of going with a Lysholm SC after reading this thread.

Now if someone could just quiet it down and make it stealthy

[wed3k]

but the real question is: would it be worth cutting everything out of the car to win 1000 dollars?

ill tube frame the car!

[scrapper]

And still a slug on the G60

I'm sure it just a fluke that we won the 2004 European car 1.8T time attach against oh....a dozen turbo cars when we ran a Supercharger. Same engine size 1.8T, or should I say 1.8SC for us.
And that's a 20v

Thats Awesome and I remember the write up on it in the mag. I might still have it I'll have to look. I remember feeling that all the cars were sorta slow in the magazine and wished Bill Schimmel had built a car for that mix. In 1998 Bill had his car in the 11's and built others in the 9's and here's a bunch of cars in the 13's and 14's qtr mile in 2004.

Not mocking yaa because I like and appreciate all that BBM has done to the VW scene for yrs and current.
I just remember thinking there's faster cars at the time that would be a better example for the turbos. I also remember that BBM having the best sounding of the bunch. I also thought BBM had the most hp in the mix. I wanted BBM to win out of that line up or the other Corrado.

[JBETZ]

but the real question is: would it be worth cutting everything out of the car to win 1000 dollars?

ill tube frame the car!

cars have to be equal weight and the same tires....

[JBETZ]

You are correct....all of the cars were running slower than normal. The tarmac temp was over 140 degrees. The heat took out a couple of cars, our car was overheated from the road course by the time we hit the 1/4 mile. All of the quarter mile times were slow from the cars getting the crap beat out of them and the heat from the road course. We went straight to the 1/4 mile and believe me it was a tough day in the sun... Our 1/4 mile time was mis-printed in the magazine. They flip flopped our time with another tuner. The DOT tires they made us run were also pretty bad for traction....and they were wasted by the time we hit the 1/4 mile

[wed3k]

when i took the original charger out at 185k, it still put out 4 psi but the innard were destroyed and ready to come apart. i could see the apex seals hanging out on the inlet.

put a stock rebuild with a 68mm and it can almost fry the tires in 2nd gear.

id like to go with something aftermarket but the g60 fits from the factory and can still be upgraded if i wanted to.

[Prof315]

One final comment and then I'll shut up . It may well be that a supercharged PG will be the faster car in the 1/4 mile vs a turboed PG, but some people (me included) don't give a hoot about 1/4 mile times.
Don't get me wrong, I have a good deal of respect for those folks who can run a fast 1/4 but it's not me. I prefer road racing. And in a street car (especially a rado) I'd rather have top speed and good part throttle fuel economy. It's fun to outrun a new Porsche on the interstate and then make the owner sick to his stomach when you tell him that it's a 4 banger that gets 35+mpg at 85 mph . And for those goals a turbo will always win especially combined with a decent standalone.

[petethepug]

No worry Mate! That's the thing about the Corrado. There's a cult following. There's still enough of em to Frankenstein 8V, 16V, 20V, 24V and even one 30V (2.7T). A turbo is just the tip of the TDI, Syncro, Haldex Corrado iceberg. I'd love to see someone stuff a W8 in one of these.

[DubCorrado]

Man Im glad that this post was started. I was actually thinking about turbocharging my PG and ditching the Lysholm. But reading this just made me that much more in love with the Lysholm.

[petethepug]

I've got a BBM lysholm silencer kit waiting to go on after my next G Ladder rebuild is out. Between now and then I'll find a lysholm off the classifieds to prep. Repoman's life size Hot Wheels has me motivated to dial up the boost now that I've got the platform to support it.

[fox-16v]

If bbm reintroduced their silencer kit, I would go that route instead of turbo. Ill just save my penny's and throw a rotrex setup on a 20v one of these days.

[petethepug]

TEC used one on their Corrado but it was vague on it's performance. I was looking at Rotrex for a while. There were never any dyno sheets available from a Corrado G60 install so I knew not to get in on it. The last article I saw on the inet showed the size that goes in a G60 could only get about 7-8lb boost.

Edit .. Just got off the phone w/ Jackson Racing who is the Dist in my area. Here's the bottom line with Rotrex on the G60:

Cost factor w/ exchange rate of the 1 US Dollar = 5.62867 Danish Krone
Dedicated support solely for the Corrado G60. Per the folks at Rotrex:

If you have a problem with your Rotrex supercharger then contact the dealer for advice. Always contact the dealer where you bought the supercharger. Do not contact Rotrex directly as only the dealer will be able to help.
We do not recommend attempting to repair the Rotrex supercharger. We are aware of some companies offering repairs, however none of these are Rotrex approved. At Rotrex we never repair superchargers or reuse components.
Please also note that Rotrex does not offer any warranty on superchargers that have been repaired or disassembled

In spite of them being around for a while they're still a small Danish Co and have yet to make it into a production vehicle. Real world road time and the R&D that would come from running a Rotrex in a daily driver would get them to the next level.

[scrapper]

Some people who go turbo most likely are not just going to be satisfied with a 14 sec qtr mile pass at full weight. Thats just teasing them to build a turbo engine correctly. Not just throwing on a kit and calling it a day. They are getting a turbo cuz they can surpass a super charger performance with a further upgrades and or possible future build. You hear it all the time.

If you want a fast street car that only does about High 14. sec qtr mile pass at full weight BBM might be for you. If you gut yr Corrado with further upgrades you might be in the 12's . Also consider you will be stuck in that range or BBM would of built a faster car is my guess.

If you want something that will keep up with performance of today's standards for an average stock VW's R models BBM can get you there.

When it comes to drag racing your better off with a turbo in the long run just in case you want to compete with a bit faster cars at the track. You just gotta build the motor.

I think that's why so many just ditch the motor as a whole and put in a 16 valve or VR6 and start there.

Anyone know what the fastest g60 qtr mile time with a BBM super charger is? Full weight or gutted?

[JBETZ]

If bbm reintroduced their silencer kit, I would go that route instead of turbo. Ill just save my penny's and throw a rotrex setup on a 20v one of these days.

We can set you up with a BBM twin screw and silencer option
Rotrex no so great on the G60 8v, had a few in my shop.

[JBETZ]

One final comment and then I'll shut up . It may well be that a supercharged PG will be the faster car in the 1/4 mile vs a turboed PG, but some people (me included) don't give a hoot about 1/4 mile times.
Don't get me wrong, I have a good deal of respect for those folks who can run a fast 1/4 but it's not me. I prefer road racing. And in a street car (especially a rado) I'd rather have top speed and good part throttle fuel economy. It's fun to outrun a new Porsche on the interstate and then make the owner sick to his stomach when you tell him that it's a 4 banger that gets 35+mpg at 85 mph . And for those goals a turbo will always win especially combined with a decent standalone.

Also quicker times on the road course...even more of an A$$ kicking than on the 1/4 mile track

[clove911]

My only arguement, and why I didn't go with the charger, is for the cost(over$3000) for the charger and then money to install, chip, whatever, depends on what you can do yourself. I am putting in a fully built 16Vt motor in for the same in parts costs comparibly. I understand that I am putting in custom piping which if you can't do yourself can be expensive, but still the over all end result will be much more fun to drive. Alos, with standalone, only thing I need to do down the road is add more fuel and bigger turbo and faster car.

In relationship to lag, a good hybrid turbo will cost far less than the charger as well.

Like the one guy said earlier in the thread, its a lot to say "how much power for how much money"

I'm not a rocket scientist so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Also not bashing BBM or their charger/products, as I bought their fuel rail to use with my setup

[JBETZ]

Good points....really also pending on your mechanical skill level and how much you value your time.
That is even if you have extra time, majority of our customers like to bolt on and go.
I have a 500hp turbo 16v... GT30R, fun car still lags, so did my 16v GT28R.
Now I am switching two of my cars back to Supercharger!
Thanks for all the feed back and input, thought this might be a fun thread

[JBETZ]

Since we are now comparing turbo charged 16v's and 20v's, to the G60 SC 8v, thought I'd add this.
When we did the very first Mk3 2.0L BBM Supercharger kit. My customer went right to the Stage IV power package. At that time I had a tricked out Mk4 GTI 1.8T. It made about 250+ whp and nearly 300 wheel torque. We did countless side by side drag races. Every time the cars were exactly neck and neck. My 1.8T GTI even had a close ratio six spd. box in it. Once again it didn't matter, the broad torque band made it just as quick. Both cars in full street trim and woofers in the trunk.
Bottom line is that a properly supercharged 8v can be just as quick as a tricked out 16v or 20v turbo car. Now lets not start comparing water melons too apples here. Of course you have world record high hp, high $$$$$$ custom built turbo and supercharged cars out there. That's not what we are talking about here.

[JBETZ]

In relationship to lag, a good hybrid turbo will cost far less than the charger as well.

I keep seeing this cost comparison.... It's absolutely ridiculous my friend. I sell turbo gear to 16v guys every single day. I sell complete packages, just parts, complete engines ect. ect. ect.... they are NOT less money than our $3k charger kit.
By the time you add it all up they almost always go near the $4-5k mark and you would need to spend this much to even compete against a twin screw kit 8v on the good old G60.
So back to dollars and cents, time and skill level of the customer....it is beat hands down!

[JBETZ]

Anyone know what the fastest g60 qtr mile time with a BBM super charger is? Full weight or gutted?

Yes, pretty sure we have it....the video is in this thread.
The fastest time I have ever seen on a stock PG 8v G60 engine with stock management is our fastest time of 11.7 sec 1/4 mile.

I've never seen a quicker time on this engine set up. If someone can show me other wise....my eyes are wide open

I also know of Double J Motorwerks, he runs low 12's all day long in a drag prepped BBM SC 8v bunny.
Not sure if he has gone quicker since I last spoke with him

And we have ran high 12's with full street trim cars running slicks.
Repoman, I think used to come close to 11's with our 16v SC Ltd. conversion... in full street trim.

[rodperformance]

Hi again mr betz!could you give some thoughts about the tvs charger? Seems like a good compromise (cost perspective) to the buyer,it looks like it could do good and if the price is right there should be some customers,at least i would be!!may be is not as efficient as a lysholm but a lower pricing on a kit like that and missing a few ponies i would go for it.Actually i might do like carat g60 and stuff a 50shot for those times when i feel lucky(punk),hope you and your staff the best and keep bringing good stuff the market later guys! Roderick

[JBETZ]

Hi again mr betz!could you give some thoughts about the tvs charger? Seems like a good compromise (cost perspective) to the buyer,it looks like it could do good and if the price is right there should be some customers,at least i would be!!may be is not as efficient as a lysholm but a lower pricing on a kit like that and missing a few ponies i would go for it.Actually i might do like carat g60 and stuff a 50shot for those times when i feel lucky(punk),hope you and your staff the best and keep bringing good stuff the market later guys! Roderick

Hi rodperformance...we have some really great customers in Puerto Rico. So shout out to PR
The TVS is a great charger design.... the smallest unit is the 1320 and it would be a tight shoe horn of a challenge to fit it in the G60. Feel free to email me at betz@bahnbrenner.com and we can discuss options

[Prof315]

Also quicker times on the road course...even more of an A$$ kicking than on the 1/4 mile track

And not legal on a VW in SCCA club racing

[fox-16v]

We can set you up with a BBM twin screw and silencer option
Rotrex no so great on the G60 8v, had a few in my shop.

Have you dabbled in silenced 20v lysholms?

[kainoasun]

If we're still talking 1.8 G60's on digi,... I had so many headaches maintaining G60 turbo conversions. But i did not have as many issues maintaining highly boosted supercharged systems running digi. The turbo conversions just had so many more parts, not to mention the extra labor and tuning issues for the turbo conversion. "

From my experience there was not that much difference in performance when using the 1.8 8v head in turbo or supercharged form.

It seems the flow of the 8v counter flow head, even when P and P'd with bigger valves has a bottleneck that can only move so much air regardless of how much is boost shoved down its throat.

If I was to go turbo 1.8, I'd bite the bullet and go factory 1.8T 20 valve with factory or aftermarket management... No question.

Then again A lysholm 1.8 20 valve is pretty dam awesome making some ridiculous power compared to 1.8T engine.....

Anyone know which setup dominates???






P"

[JBETZ]

Have you dabbled in silenced 20v lysholms?

the red devil race car video above is a BBM twin screw 20v silenced set up, large custom head unit.
i think silenced is not exactly the correct word for this.
putting the t-body in front of the compressor makes it about 50+% quieter.
you can still hear the blower, but it sounds like music to me

[scrapper]

you can still hear the blower, but it sounds like music to me

Nice I'm the same way My Corrado has a 4"down pipe wide open and never had the radio on in like 7yrs Hmm Love it! My 928 that I had for many more has never had the radio on I just roll down the windows n the V8 was all music.

The BBM car must of been a blast to hear, feel and pedal thru going into the turns and coming out.

[DubCorrado]

I guess this is the best place to ask this but, how many liters of air does a BBM lysholm push out per revolution?

Thanks,
Mark