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    Thread: : ) Why NOT to install a turbo on the G60 8v engine that was engineered for a supercharger!

    1. Forum Sponsor JBETZ's Avatar
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      04-14-2012 05:19 PM #26
      Yes, more hp does not make for a quicker car... When we were running our drag Scirocco it would beat turbo cars that had much more hp, even cars that had an additional 100 hp. This red Honda was claiming to make over 350hp. We were making about 240 wheel hp. This chart shows the torque difference and the turbo still has more wheel hp. Also you have to account for turbo lag and believe me turbo lag is always a big deal when going up against a supercharged car.



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      04-15-2012 07:16 PM #27
      Wow. I wish I could afford a twin screw.
      Quote Originally Posted by 90quattrocoupe
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      04-15-2012 09:03 PM #28
      prof315 brought up diesel's.

      Imagine a big diesel truck running a 300 hp 280 torque gasoline small block Chevy engine.
      The truck would be soooo slow...it might barely even move.

      The diesel engine lets say also makes 300 hp...but it also makes 600 ft. lbs of torque. Point being torque is really what moves a vehicle. Hp is a measurement of work performed over a time period. Torque is the ability to turn and move. Torque is key to a quick car....and superchargers rule in the torque dept. The PG G60 engine was engineered for torque, so matches the supercharger perfectly.
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      04-16-2012 09:17 AM #29
      I'm still not convinced that a PG turbo with a modern ball bearing turbo matched to the powerband and a good exhaust manifold won't at least equal the performance/ 1/4 mile times of a supercharged car. Sooner or later I'm sure to wind up with another PG and I'll have to try....

      As far as efficiency goes though, sorry turbos have superchargers beat hands down. Fact: a typical supercharger eats between 15%-50% of the crankshaft horsepower while a turbo only takes 3% to 10%. Example: The MASSIVE roots blower on a 7000hp top fuel dragster requires between 750hp and 1000hp to spin up to 50psi!
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    5. Member petethepug's Avatar
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      04-16-2012 02:02 PM #30
      Proofs in the pudding. Pudding eating contest below
      Lysholm is the apidamy of efficiency. For its time the G-Ladder was impressive. Modifications to increase boost was the writing on the wall for its demise.


      Lysholm 1200A Supercharger

      Garrett GT32

      Garrett GT32 Press vs Flow

      I used the Garrett GT32 as comparison since it's the hot ticket in turbine technology. The charts are the best way to compare apples to apples. For obtaining immediate, cost effective boost at low rpm on a PG (G60) motor, a supercharger is the way to go. A turbo will get you there and more but, the PG was not designed for the characteristics of a turbine from the factory.

      Adiabatic Efficiency:
      Screw Compressor Approx. 80%
      G-Ladder Approx. 60%
      GT32 Approx 68% - Heat soak will decrease this rating proportionally
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    6. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      04-16-2012 02:12 PM #31
      Actually Borg Warner EFR turbos are the current cutting edge in the turbo industry. (We won't talk about their supply problems though ) I'm pretty sure that a 6258 on a good manifold would hold it's own vs a twinscrew on a PG.
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    7. Member petethepug's Avatar
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      04-16-2012 07:51 PM #32
      I hear what your saying. The B/W 6258 will run you about $1.5K on the low end if you can find one new. It's easy to spend another $1-1.5K on the essentials for installation. If you opt for a stand alone management system throw down $500 to $1K. After all that you've got a PG head that's limited by flow characteristic once your boost goes up. The PG block is a lump compared to internals of a motor specifically built for a turbo.

      A turbo can smoke a built Corrado G60 or Lysholm. The point Johnny's making is that it just costs a lot more to change a G60 to a turbo motor with the identical or greater performance characteristics. There's no magic combo to chip and bolt on to a G60 that will make it scream like it does with a STG III kit (cost wise).

      Quote Originally Posted by A2VW4life View Post
      Don't buy a kit, none of them out there are worth what they want for them, put one together yourself its easy, here is a quick list for ya:

      turbo exhaust mani (with or without external waistegate flange thats up to you)
      turbo of your choice
      sns chip (give them your specs and they burn them for ya)
      cone filter
      boost controller (turbosmart has a nice manual one that works great and is around 100 bucks)
      piping-----------exhust shop can throw something nice together
      downpipe--------some exhust shops can help or point you to someone who can
      anything I am forgetting?
      also some things that are nice to help tune are a boost gauge, a/f guage, and a egt gauge anyway if you need anymore help just let me know, I went down this road last year.......
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    8. Member nu2dubbing's Avatar
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      04-16-2012 10:03 PM #33
      For me it was easy......both can and will grenade given enough time and abuse or digi fail. I rather replace a $300 turbo than a $1200 g60. I have never had the pleasure of owning a lysholm but the ability to turn into a paper weight instantly scares the sh!t out of me

    9. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 10:51 AM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by petethepug View Post
      I hear what your saying. The B/W 6258 will run you about $1.5K on the low end if you can find one new. It's easy to spend another $1-1.5K on the essentials for installation. If you opt for a stand alone management system throw down $500 to $1K. After all that you've got a PG head that's limited by flow characteristic once your boost goes up. The PG block is a lump compared to internals of a motor specifically built for a turbo.

      A turbo can smoke a built Corrado G60 or Lysholm. The point Johnny's making is that it just costs a lot more to change a G60 to a turbo motor with the identical or greater performance characteristics. There's no magic combo to chip and bolt on to a G60 that will make it scream like it does with a STG III kit (cost wise).
      What essentials???? That's one of the many reasons I like the EFR so much..... big internal wastegate (3 different actuators available), built in DV, and a boost control solenoid already mounted and plumbed in. Hang it on the car, plumb it, run 1 vacuum line from the DV to the intake and wire up the boost solenoid DONE!
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    10. Member petethepug's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 01:17 PM #35
      Love me the turbo(s), just not for the G60 unless I swap to a 20V. I just rolled 100,000 clicks on the 2.7t and can't wait to Stg II or III it as part of the maintenance. If there was some way to hang a

      • turbo
      • intake
      • and then chip

      the stock PG motor and get the linear torque curve of the Allroad or s/c'd G60, I'd build it next. Show me some dyno runs sheets for just hanging a Borg Warner EFR or 6258 on a G60 and I'm a believer.
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      04-17-2012 02:26 PM #36
      I understand the pg wasn't built for a turbo. But why can a lightened crank and lightened flywheel help the motor adapt to the different boost curve. Yes the cylinder head has poor flow, but I've seen some counter flow heads ported with bigger valves make good power.
      In my Corrado, I live my life a quarter mile at a time.. for those 18 seconds or less, I'm free

      Quote Originally Posted by 206929rr View Post
      nice find. sell me your foha. im not asking. "this isnt the foha you were looking for" (waves hand jedi like)...

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      04-17-2012 03:59 PM #37
      Allroad 2.7T...what turbo lag?

      Hell I don't know how people say the 1.8T is laggy, but the one in my old Beetle 1.8T was pretty decent, you could feel it spool up but it was a very fast spool, by the time you did a quick clutch slip launch, it was at full chat. Unlike other turbo cars I have driven extensively. Like a XR4Ti, Mitsu Eclipse, WRX, hell even that Cobalt 2.0T, is like zzzzzzz snore...pfffftthsh...holy F*ckin sh1T. But with no lift shift, that car never drops out of boost once spooled, it's stupid fast for what it is. Faster then a modded GTI and Mazdaspeed, WRX, etc.

      Then again with a S/C I don't need no lift shift, full boost as fast as you can get your foot to the floor. Maybe Jbetz is right on this supercharger thing after all.
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      04-17-2012 04:04 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by Prof315 View Post
      What essentials???? That's one of the many reasons I like the EFR so much..... big internal wastegate (3 different actuators available), built in DV, and a boost control solenoid already mounted and plumbed in. Hang it on the car, plumb it, run 1 vacuum line from the DV to the intake and wire up the boost solenoid DONE!
      turbo manifold, down pipe, ic tubing, hoses clamps, air intake with tube, hose clamp filter, oil feed and drain....ect.
      those essentials.
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      04-17-2012 04:06 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by fox-16v View Post
      I understand the pg wasn't built for a turbo. But why can a lightened crank and lightened flywheel help the motor adapt to the different boost curve. Yes the cylinder head has poor flow, but I've seen some counter flow heads ported with bigger valves make good power.
      sure if you wanted to try to prove some point and spend thousands of extra dollars just to do it...
      at this point you might as well install a 16v, 20v or vr6.
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    15. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 04:07 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by JBETZ View Post
      turbo manifold, down pipe, ic tubing, hoses clamps, air intake with tube, hose clamp filter, oil feed and drain....ect.
      those essentials.
      Ok, but not another $1000-$1500 that's for sure.
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      04-17-2012 06:02 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by Prof315 View Post
      Ok, but not another $1000-$1500 that's for sure.
      And still a slug on the G60

      I'm sure it just a fluke that we won the 2004 European car 1.8T time attach against oh....a dozen turbo cars when we ran a Supercharger. Same engine size 1.8T, or should I say 1.8SC for us.
      And that's a 20v

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      04-17-2012 07:27 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by JBETZ View Post
      And still a slug on the G60

      I'm sure it just a fluke that we won the 2004 European car 1.8T time attach against oh....a dozen turbo cars when we ran a Supercharger. Same engine size 1.8T, or should I say 1.8SC for us.
      And that's a 20v
      Ahaha the proof is in the pudding.

      /thread
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      04-18-2012 12:23 AM #43
      I loved reading all this. I just got involved in the VW thing and bought '91 corrado with some BBM stuff in the engine bay. Having had a stage 3 SRT-4 ACR edition i can say i like the daily driving torque of the gLadder over the turbo i previously had.

      I have been doing research on going turbo, 16vt conversions, 20vt conversions, ect,ect but they all seem expensive and overly complicated to install compared to upgrading to a BBM Lysholm for my Corrado. I feel i am more in favor of going with a Lysholm SC after reading this thread.

      Now if someone could just quiet it down and make it stealthy
      1991 G60

    19. 04-18-2012 12:52 AM #44
      but the real question is: would it be worth cutting everything out of the car to win 1000 dollars?

      ill tube frame the car!

    20. 04-18-2012 01:20 AM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by JBETZ View Post
      And still a slug on the G60

      I'm sure it just a fluke that we won the 2004 European car 1.8T time attach against oh....a dozen turbo cars when we ran a Supercharger. Same engine size 1.8T, or should I say 1.8SC for us.
      And that's a 20v

      Thats Awesome and I remember the write up on it in the mag. I might still have it I'll have to look. I remember feeling that all the cars were sorta slow in the magazine and wished Bill Schimmel had built a car for that mix. In 1998 Bill had his car in the 11's and built others in the 9's and here's a bunch of cars in the 13's and 14's qtr mile in 2004.

      Not mocking yaa because I like and appreciate all that BBM has done to the VW scene for yrs and current.
      I just remember thinking there's faster cars at the time that would be a better example for the turbos. I also remember that BBM having the best sounding of the bunch. I also thought BBM had the most hp in the mix. I wanted BBM to win out of that line up or the other Corrado.
      Last edited by scrapper; 04-18-2012 at 01:34 AM.

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      04-18-2012 03:14 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by wed3k View Post
      but the real question is: would it be worth cutting everything out of the car to win 1000 dollars?

      ill tube frame the car!
      cars have to be equal weight and the same tires....
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      04-18-2012 03:19 PM #47
      You are correct....all of the cars were running slower than normal. The tarmac temp was over 140 degrees. The heat took out a couple of cars, our car was overheated from the road course by the time we hit the 1/4 mile. All of the quarter mile times were slow from the cars getting the crap beat out of them and the heat from the road course. We went straight to the 1/4 mile and believe me it was a tough day in the sun... Our 1/4 mile time was mis-printed in the magazine. They flip flopped our time with another tuner. The DOT tires they made us run were also pretty bad for traction....and they were wasted by the time we hit the 1/4 mile
      Last edited by JBETZ; 04-18-2012 at 07:03 PM.
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    23. 04-20-2012 10:00 PM #48
      when i took the original charger out at 185k, it still put out 4 psi but the innard were destroyed and ready to come apart. i could see the apex seals hanging out on the inlet.

      put a stock rebuild with a 68mm and it can almost fry the tires in 2nd gear.

      id like to go with something aftermarket but the g60 fits from the factory and can still be upgraded if i wanted to.

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      04-21-2012 09:09 AM #49
      One final comment and then I'll shut up . It may well be that a supercharged PG will be the faster car in the 1/4 mile vs a turboed PG, but some people (me included) don't give a hoot about 1/4 mile times.
      Don't get me wrong, I have a good deal of respect for those folks who can run a fast 1/4 but it's not me. I prefer road racing. And in a street car (especially a rado) I'd rather have top speed and good part throttle fuel economy. It's fun to outrun a new Porsche on the interstate and then make the owner sick to his stomach when you tell him that it's a 4 banger that gets 35+mpg at 85 mph . And for those goals a turbo will always win especially combined with a decent standalone.
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      04-21-2012 01:37 PM #50
      No worry Mate! That's the thing about the Corrado. There's a cult following. There's still enough of em to Frankenstein 8V, 16V, 20V, 24V and even one 30V (2.7T). A turbo is just the tip of the TDI, Syncro, Haldex Corrado iceberg. I'd love to see someone stuff a W8 in one of these.
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