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    Thread: 110-130whp 8V Recipes?

    1. Member
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      04-11-2012 02:07 PM #1
      Hey all. I'm fixing up my 86 GTI and once it gets done being painted on friday I'm going to start making it more fun to drive. Hopefully I'm being realistic with my power goals for an 8V, but I think 110-130whp will give me some smiles even if it won't win a lot of races. That said, I know you guys have done it all before so I was hoping for some pointers on maximizing the potential of this little engine. I hear people throw around things like cross-flow head (not sure what models that came on), autotech cams, etc..., but I was hoping someone could just give me checklist of things to do? Thanks!

    2. n00b
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      04-11-2012 02:23 PM #2
      hope u get good reply!!

    3. Member EastCoastVeeDub's Avatar
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      04-11-2012 06:58 PM #3
      The crossflow heads are stock on B4 Passat 2.0l 16v, Mk 2 16v, and all Mk3 2.0l 8v engines, swapping out your 1.8l block for a 2.0l (aba) block is a good cheap upgrade to add a few ponies. With this swap you can keep your existing head and fuel injection system.
      you could go a bit further and swap out the entire motor for a Mk3 2.0l, your motor stock puts out 102 hp, the 2.0l's puts out 115 hp stock. I gather that you're wanting to keep and mod your existing motor so that just stands as a reference.
      The "checklist" is a matter of opinion, requiring a bit of research on your part, but here is a good place to start.
      Cam of your choice, (the more aggressive cam will be peppier, but will lack in gas mileage and idle)
      HD valve springs,
      Lightweight lifters,
      New valve seals and guides
      Lightweight cam and intermediate shaft gears
      Resurfaced head
      Dual outlet exhaust manifold and down pipe, (found on some Mk2's and all Mk 3's)
      Fresh cylinder bore, (may require oversized pistons, they get pricey, another reason for the aba block swap)
      Lightweight flywheel
      Depending on the what code your engine is, it could have a 9:1 or 10:1 compression ratio. 10:1 is optimal but will require a knock sensor and/or high octane fuel.

      So good hp gains are definitely doable with the right parts and work. In order to hit high numbers like 130 or higher it really depends on how much money you want to throw at it.
      Last edited by EastCoastVeeDub; 04-11-2012 at 07:07 PM.

    4. Member Seax_Smith's Avatar
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      04-11-2012 08:28 PM #4
      Chasing power in an 8-valve is a loosing race.... key phrase CHASING POWER.

      That said.

      See the above post.

      If you are to push 130 cheap, it's not that bad.

      ABA block
      (fresh) Digi Head
      "PF" dual down pipe and manifold, High flow cat and 55mm or 60 mm cat back
      Autotech 270 cam
      Lightened cam gear and intermediate shaft pulley (same pulley by the way)
      There are some diesel lifters which work perfectly and are a whole lot lighter.
      Do the dremel port to gasket thing on the throttle body and intake manifold (head side too)
      Big thing is to be sure the AFR is set correctly.

      Next step up is either serious head work and/or megasquirt or stand alone of choice.

      Careful with oversized valves. the pretty much just push the power band up in the RPM range.

      ABA half swap is pretty much a 1.8 storker, so keep the extra torque lower where you can use it more.
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      04-11-2012 11:12 PM #5
      Can I just do an ABA longblock? Port the head. Get an Autotech 270 cam. lifters, Ti retainers, header, whatever and be "done"? Is there a benefit to swapping the whole thing? Sounds like a lot more work to swap the CIS, but is there a worthwhile benefit especially if i eventually go megasquirt? Like I said I don't need this to be even close to the fastest thing on the road, just the most fun. Thanks again for dropping some knowledge on me!

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      04-12-2012 06:58 AM #6
      Sorry up front if anyone feels I’m banging against them in any way. It’s just this scorpion and frog syndrome I was bore with and can’t seem to shake. First is the goal, 120 – 130 horsepower at the wheels. Here lies a little bit of a problem, “at the wheels” means your engine is going to have to have another 15% or more to overcome mechanical losses. So a 130hp at the wheels car will need more like 150hp at the crank, even more for automatics. Is it doable? Sure, but unless you are using a supercharger of some form it might be a bit much for a street driven daily driver. But lets look at some of the “list” items that have been thrown out so far:

      > Camshaft – First a 270 is not going to get you there, nice street cam for most people but not a 150hp building part. Any camshaft that will get you to where you want to be is going to have a lumpy idle, require a higher idle and not make it’s power, come on as was said years ago, until around 4000RPM.

      > Non-power building parts – Lightweight followers, HD valve springs, lightweight camshaft or intermediate shaft gears, new valve seals/guides, lightweight flywheel (see below), Digifant cylinder head, none of them make any power. Some might be required if other parts demand you use them, like HD springs. Some are a good idea when building any engine, like new valve seals and/or guides. And some make so little difference it should only be suggested for the very last thing you do when you have done everything else possible, like lightweight gears.

      > using an ABA bottom end – This is one of the horsepower building basic steps, increase engine size. Using that block might not increase the power much, but it does also provide a base to build upon if a high spinning motor is not the goal.

      > Surfacing the head or honing the bores are again basic rebuilding procedures. Yes if the bores need boring larger or more than a thin cut is done to the head there will be a slight increase in compression.

      > 86 GTi should already have the dual outlet manifold and down pipe, no? It should also already have a static compression of 10:1 (advertised). If it did not, could be a US vs. European thing as they had them here, then yes that will help a little. I would say that with a power gain goal of 130hp at the wheels you would be better off with a 4 into 1 header. Your power band is going to be raised and limited so getting a header tuned for such a power band will do more than a factory setup.

      > Port matching might help a tad bit and is worth the effort, but a real cylinder head modification by someone who knows what they are doing can do wonders. And to be honest, I know just my opinion, stand alone systems are not for everyone. Yes they fill in a gap nicely and can be tuned if you learn how to, but just when does that gap appear for most people and how many take the time to really learn how to tune with it?

      ”The "checklist" is a matter of opinion, requiring a bit of research on your part, but here is a good place to start.” ”In order to hit high numbers like 130 or higher it really depends on how much money you want to throw at it.” Both very true statements.

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      04-12-2012 09:13 AM #7
      Perfectly good answer. When I started researching I could really only find things like "8V Gnarly build" and such. People that wanted to get big power out of the engine and trying to get closer to 180hp out of it. I thought I was taking a more conservative goal in only being around 130, but should the goal be closer to 100-110whp? This definitely has to be streetable and I don't want to destroy the mileage. More fun is the main goal. Does that change things? If "just swap in XXXXX motor" is really the only way to do this that's fine I really just want to keep the stock CIS setup for now because I want to drive it for a bit before I do anything major again (getting it undented and repainted is $1600 and I want a little recovery time.). Thanks for the help!

    8. Member Seax_Smith's Avatar
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      04-12-2012 10:19 PM #8
      I'm an 8-valve daily guy and have been for 15 or more years.

      130 is about all you are going to get out of an 8 valve and still have a bank account.

      Get a 55 mm (16 valve) exhaust on it, a dual down pipe or header, get a reasonable/streetable cam into it (autotech 270) and chip it (if possible), and call it go enough for now.

      Start watching for used lightened/balance pulleys, fly wheel, IM shaft, etc.

      When you go to install the cam, pop the head off the car, do the valve stem seals and do a quick hand lap of the valves if the guides are still good.

      Mark III 7 mm stemmed valve are an option, but they sit a bit deep, so it is half of one and 6 of the other as far as gain goes. you get some and you lose some at the same time.

      The dremel to gasket technique does a good bit for the intake manifold and some for the
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    9. Member Seax_Smith's Avatar
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      04-12-2012 10:24 PM #9
      I'm an 8-valve daily guy and have been for 15 or more years.

      130 is about all you are going to get out of an 8 valve and still have a bank account.

      Get a 55 mm (16 valve) exhaust on it, a dual down pipe or header, get a reasonable/streetable cam into it (autotech 270) and chip it (if possible), and call it go enough for now.

      Start watching for used lightened/balance pulleys, fly wheel, IM shaft, etc.

      When you go to install the cam, pop the head off the car, do the valve stem seals and do a quick hand lap of the valves if the guides are still good.

      Mark III 7 mm stemmed valve are an option, but they sit a bit deep, so it is half of one and 6 of the other as far as gain goes. you get some and you lose some at the same time.

      The dremel to gasket technique does a good bit for the intake manifold and some for the TB as well.

      Big things are get the AFR set correctly, make it reliable, have a good suspension under it and get it the breath better. After that you are not going to see a lot of gain with out a lot of money.

      End result is that you can spend less on a complete aba swap or 16 valve swap.

      ABA block under your exsisting head is quick and painless for the most part and that .2 l really makes a differece. Good thing about 8 valves is that you can do thing progressively and god-fast-goodies are always being sold of by people who opted for a different engine.
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      04-12-2012 11:05 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by Seax_Smith View Post
      DO SOMETHING ORIGINAL! Buy a Mark II. Set it up to be a cost effective, daily driver that fits your budget, tastes, driving style, wants and needs. Do the basic, regular maintenance before things break. Drive it every day and enjoy the hell out of it. Otherwise, you might as well go back to huffing the same insecticide-du-jour as everyone you are trying to impress or replicate.
      LOVE THIS!!! ^ ^ ^

      and agree w/ it 100,000%

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      04-13-2012 04:43 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by dieselerik View Post
      . . . I thought I was taking a more conservative goal in only being around 130, but should the goal be closer to 100-110whp? This definitely has to be streetable and I don't want to destroy the mileage. More fun is the main goal. Does that change things? If "just swap in XXXXX motor" is really the only way to do this that's fine I really just want to keep the stock CIS setup for now
      Maybe I was not 100% clear, though I think I was, about the power figures. You stated up fromt 120hp to 130hp at the wheels. That is a rather big difference from the same power figures at the crankshaft and much more doable. 100-110hp at the wheels would be in the area of 125hp at your crankshaft and many people should be driving around with that, or at least their post would suggest they are. Regardless of whether you're looking at 125hp or 150hp, it is an increase and your fuel usage will increase accordingly (that's just science). So you yourself have to decide where the milage becomes "destroyed" and maybe use that as part of your plan. The fun factor can sometimes be increased in other ways also, like using a different transmission to make the car more peppy. Simple things like suspension improvements, losing weight, tire up-grades and the like can add to the driving fun without really making engine changes. So my advice to you, same as I give to others too, is to sit down and make you a plan. What do you want exactly from your car, what is your limit for funds (and over how long a period of time), what types of work can you do or have to "farm out", etc., etc. You have to be 100% honest with yourself when doing this or it could cause more heartburn later. Once you have your plan and have checked it a few times to refine it, then start the research and parts buying.

    12. 04-14-2012 08:15 AM #12
      Here are a few threads from the past on the same subject. Look at the entries from chois. He posts a simple formula for 115WHP out of a 1.8.
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...&highlight=whp

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...light=built#31

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...-2.0-8v./page5

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...no+vindication
      Last edited by ny_fam; 04-14-2012 at 08:33 AM.

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      04-28-2012 03:42 PM #13
      Thanks for the links, and thanks for all the advice guys.

      After really taking some time and thinking about what i want and expect from the car i've decided my goal is a 2.0L 8V swap and then bolt-ons. When everything else is set up how I want it I'll probably do headwork and then a cam. This is going to be a fun car and I want it on the road cruising more than off the road and getting worked on. Thanks again!

    14. Member superl8's Avatar
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      04-29-2012 03:48 PM #14
      2l aba with x-flow - you'll love this swap. This or a 2l 16 valve. Without touching the 16v it'll have more power. Straight bolt in, just saying. Don't discount it for some 8v hang up. It'd cost less as well... I did the ABA 2l and it was lots of parts gathering (money) and work. (not overly but there are some little details)

      I'd go 16 if done again. Way more potential.

    15. Member B4S's Avatar
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      04-29-2012 04:29 PM #15
      Perhaps it's not that important now, but I made 105whp on a 1.8 with a 256* cam, dual outlet exhaust manifold, and dual 40mm carbs .
      Negative scene points

    16. Member chois's Avatar
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      05-03-2012 09:46 AM #16
      Yes your goal is totally attainable with the counter flow 1.8. Attention to the details and getting them right is the key. My build is with CIS-E, 100% stock internals, cam and valve train - though balanced and blueprinted, .040 over stock pistons (simply because the block needed that much cut to be good) and compression bump to 10.5:1 (probably was ~9.5:1 stock on this "10:1" motor) by decking the block.

      Add a decent cam and some mild head work and you should land right in the middle of your target range.

      The money spent would be more than dropping in and adding some parts to a used 2 liter, but that is a bit apples and oranges, since one motor would be "new" and the other used.
      Last edited by chois; 05-03-2012 at 09:48 AM.
      Chris
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      05-08-2012 11:59 AM #17
      G60 swap....keep it stock. Loads of fun!

      $150 for largest aftermarket pulley, fpr and injectors....even more fun! I drive mine daily and it runs great, and the power is there to actually win a few races if you want to.

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