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    Thread: Is 160 crank hp and 260 crank torque fun in a 2500lb car?

    1. Member gsrroger's Avatar
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      04-12-2012 07:12 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by 85_305 View Post
      Horsepower IS an imginary number, contrived for marketing. I'm also not disputing that hp to weight ratio has no effect on acceleration, because it does. But having a vehicle with a high amount of torque, in a very broad power band, with proper gearing, also goes a long way.
      Power is not imaginary - it's an extremely real consequence of physics. And in some regimes, it's easier to measure power than anything else (I work in RF, we measure everything with s-parameters, which are a direct power measurement). To me, torque could be argued to be just as "imaginary" as power, because when you change gears, you change how much torque goes to the wheels - but you cannot change how much power goes to the wheels.

      All that said, in the real world, a torquey engine is still nice.

    2. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      04-12-2012 08:43 PM #27
      260 ft-lbs or 260 Nm?
      Crank torque isn't a unit of measurement.
      http://badges.fuelly.com/images/sig-metric/286588.png
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    3. 04-12-2012 08:44 PM #28
      260 has to be a typo. im positive he meant 160ftlbs
      Quote Originally Posted by slikaznricer View Post
      Dude, its the internet. Everyone trolls everyone. if you get butthurt, go buy some preparation H or troll back.

    4. Member SchnellFowVay's Avatar
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      04-12-2012 08:51 PM #29
      DO NOT FORGET THE TEKLORD CONSTANT

      Car < 151 ft.-lbs = dangerous going up hills

      Car > 151 ft.-lbs = safe, regardless of weight of car

      BMW 530iA > All Cars


      With this tool, you can discern that, at the very least, your car will be able to make it up hills safely.
      I TCL.

    5. Member SchnellFowVay's Avatar
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      04-12-2012 08:52 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by DrFrisker View Post
      260 has to be a typo. im positive he meant 160ftlbs
      Unless it's a modified TDI . . .
      I TCL.

    6. Member bherman13's Avatar
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      04-12-2012 08:54 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by DrFrisker View Post
      260 has to be a typo. im positive he meant 160ftlbs
      I'm assuming he meant diesel, but then again it could be a typo.

      Also, OP, this argument will not end well. Yes, torks are needed, but hp are the rate at which that torque is applied and during a race, time is all that matters. They must go hand in hand, and diesels don't rev very high so you need some higher gearing to make up for that anyways.

    7. Member Broduski's Avatar
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      04-12-2012 08:54 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by mellbergVWfan View Post
      Since when does a mk3 weigh 2500 pounds?
      When you cut it in half.
      Quote Originally Posted by Crimping Is Easy View Post
      People always like to throw around words like "no" and "title" or "illegal" or "feds", but at the end of the day, they're just words.

    8. 04-12-2012 09:42 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      Unless it's a modified TDI . . .
      why would he ask if his own car is fun? wouldn't he know that or not?


      mkiii owner doesnt know his own car must be worth 30k either then huh
      Quote Originally Posted by slikaznricer View Post
      Dude, its the internet. Everyone trolls everyone. if you get butthurt, go buy some preparation H or troll back.

    9. Member bherman13's Avatar
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      04-12-2012 09:45 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by 16v_43v3r View Post
      When you cut it in half.
      When you buy it..... Mine fully loaded is about 2900 and is stock.

    10. 04-13-2012 02:02 AM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by 85_305 View Post
      No, I'm not saying that at all.. merely that having a tremendous amount of torque WILL offset having lower amounts of hp. Just like hondas with 200-230hp but only 180ft-lbs of torque can run 12's; having insane amounts of one will counter having not-alot of the other. Remember: HP is an imaginery number derived off of torque, which can be seen in numerous ways.


      You've taken much physics, yes? Oh wait, no. Probably not.
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      04-13-2012 02:48 AM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by unintended acceleration View Post
      It absolutely will not. A 130 HP Golf TDI will accelerate just like a 130 HP Civic for the most part (of same weight). Torque is a force, not the amount of work that can be done over time. Without the time factor (HP) we might as well be discussing the weather.

      Look up trap speeds, 1/4 mile times, whatever you want between a Golf TDI and any other gasoline powered car (similar weight) that has the same HP but much less torque. They will accelerate at about the same rate.

      There is an almost direct correlation between HP to weight ratio and acceleration. That is the bottom line.

      If you are thinking of HP as an imaginary number, then this discussion can end here. No offense but that is just completely wrong on so many levels.
      Everyone, please accept this as correct . I'll just clarify with this: Hp = rpm * torque * (constant depending on units). You know one, then you know the other.

      Now here is what confuses many people. Hp is not a single number. At any given RPM, there is a maximum Hp that the engine car produce. The maximum of these maxima is what gets quoted. Remember, the spec always say max Hp @ some RPM. If you move away from that RPM, max Hp drops. But how does the rest of the Hp curve look like? We don't operate at a single RPM and we can't tell much from a single (Hp, RPM) point. With another point obtained from the max torque, we get another (Hp, RPM) point. The curve can now be crudely be approximated by a line. So Engines that have a higher max torque will simply have fatter Hp curves, so they will do a little better in acceleration (cuz we go through a range of RPMs, and the average HP will be higher if the curve is "fatter", even if the max is the same).

      That's also why cars with "high torque" feel more powerful in daily driving, where we operate well below the max Hp RPMs. That's because they have more power (Hp) at those RPMs than a "lower torque" engine. But when you are driving "all out", you operate closer to max Hp, so ultimate performance ends up being similar for cars with similar max Hp but different max torque, although the fact that we are still operating in a range of RPM, albeit a narrow one, the higher torque engine will see slightly higher average Hp.

    12. 04-13-2012 04:12 AM #37
      HP is not an imaginary number, it's just not a direct measurement. It's a calculation (torque x RPM / 5252). This is why a Honda with a little motor that revs high and variable valve timing can make nice HP when it has no torque. As long as the motor can carry some torque through the RPM range you can keep making power. This is the same reason a TDI makes alot less hp than torque. Diesels make alot of torque but can't rev high enough or carry the torque far enough through the range for the HP calculation to surpass the torque.

    13. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      04-13-2012 06:51 AM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by av_audi View Post
      Now here is what confuses many people. Hp is not a single number. At any given RPM, there is a maximum Hp that the engine car produce. The maximum of these maxima is what gets quoted. Remember, the spec always say max Hp @ some RPM. If you move away from that RPM, max Hp drops. But how does the rest of the Hp curve look like? We don't operate at a single RPM and we can't tell much from a single (Hp, RPM) point. With another point obtained from the max torque, we get another (Hp, RPM) point. The curve can now be crudely be approximated by a line. So Engines that have a higher max torque will simply have fatter Hp curves, so they will do a little better in acceleration (cuz we go through a range of RPMs, and the average HP will be higher if the curve is "fatter", even if the max is the same).

      That's also why cars with "high torque" feel more powerful in daily driving, where we operate well below the max Hp RPMs. That's because they have more power (Hp) at those RPMs than a "lower torque" engine. But when you are driving "all out", you operate closer to max Hp, so ultimate performance ends up being similar for cars with similar max Hp but different max torque, although the fact that we are still operating in a range of RPM, albeit a narrow one, the higher torque engine will see slightly higher average Hp.
      And that's the reason my lowly 140hp (~wheels) car has been tested 7.9-8.3s 0-60 despite its ~3,000lbs weight. On the other side of the story, the worst offenders are engines that literally peak at max power at redline - meaning that power is virtually never available.
      Last edited by feels_road; 04-13-2012 at 06:56 AM.

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      04-13-2012 07:11 AM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by DrFrisker View Post
      260 has to be a typo. im positive he meant 160ftlbs
      its gotta be closer to that 260 number. the mk3s came with porsche engines. don't you know how a boxster works? the pistons push sideways instead of up n down, so they don't have to overcome gravity = MAD TORKS!
      Quote Originally Posted by wolfcastle View Post
      Who cares if im wrong, its the internet.

    15. Member SchnellFowVay's Avatar
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      04-13-2012 12:00 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by blackvento36 View Post
      HP is not an imaginary number, it's just not a direct measurement. It's a calculation (torque x RPM / 5252). This is why a Honda with a little motor that revs high and variable valve timing can make nice HP when it has no torque. As long as the motor can carry some torque through the RPM range you can keep making power. This is the same reason a TDI makes alot less hp than torque. Diesels make alot of torque but can't rev high enough or carry the torque far enough through the range for the HP calculation to surpass the torque.
      Shhhhhhh.

      People are not interested in coherent, factual assertions here.

      This thread was custom-tailored for a knock-down, drag-out poo flinging contest between Teklord69 and the VTECK!!! enthusiasts.


      Your best bet with these types of threads is to post comments that will inflame passions, and then to:
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      04-13-2012 12:03 PM #41
      To the guys scratching their domes over my 160hp and 260ft-lb number, picture this. When I dynoed my 2000 tdi on only 15psi, a malfunctioning turbo, and way less fuel, I put down 153/270. Now with more fueling and 8psi more, I'm closer to 180/300.

    17. Member Broduski's Avatar
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      04-13-2012 12:46 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by bherman13 View Post
      When you buy it.....
      You may have missed the sarcasm in my post..
      Quote Originally Posted by Crimping Is Easy View Post
      People always like to throw around words like "no" and "title" or "illegal" or "feds", but at the end of the day, they're just words.

    18. 04-13-2012 12:52 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      And that's the reason my lowly 140hp (~wheels) car has been tested 7.9-8.3s 0-60 despite its ~3,000lbs weight. On the other side of the story, the worst offenders are engines that literally peak at max power at redline - meaning that power is virtually never available.
      It is also why your TDI can typically out-accelerate a gasser in the 30-50 (3rd gear), 50-70 (4th
      and 5th gear), and 70-90 mph in 5th gear.

      In-gear times are an astonishingly underrated measure of real-world usability. It makes
      for a nice, relaxing, low-stress driving experience.
      Last edited by adoniram7; 04-13-2012 at 12:54 PM.

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      04-13-2012 01:27 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      It is also why your TDI can typically out-accelerate a gasser in the 30-50 (3rd gear), 50-70 (4th
      and 5th gear), and 70-90 mph in 5th gear.

      In-gear times are an astonishingly underrated measure of real-world usability. It makes
      for a nice, relaxing, low-stress driving experience.
      Absolutely, the Mazdaspeed 3 I had for a few years is like a diesel that makes power to 5,500 RPM. Low RPM power makes for a very easy car to blast around town.

      Looking at the trap speed for the 1/4 of the Golf TDI at about 85 MPH drives home this point - http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test

      Low RPM power and tight gearing can only do so much, sure it runs to 60 a tick or 2 faster than a lower torque car of similar HP, but over a long period of time (like the 1/4 mile) it is exposed and ultimately has a trap speed of 85 MPH ( about as fast as any other car with 140 WHP that weighs 3,000 lbs).

    20. Banned 85_305's Avatar
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      04-13-2012 01:59 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      It is also why your TDI can typically out-accelerate a gasser in the 30-50 (3rd gear), 50-70 (4th
      and 5th gear), and 70-90 mph in 5th gear.

      In-gear times are an astonishingly underrated measure of real-world usability. It makes
      for a nice, relaxing, low-stress driving experience.
      This is 100% true! In a drag race, my tdi does pretty good. From a roll, its prett hard to touch my tdi.

    21. 04-13-2012 02:21 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by unintended acceleration View Post
      Absolutely, the Mazdaspeed 3 I had for a few years is like a diesel that makes power to 5,500 RPM. Low RPM power makes for a very easy car to blast around town.

      Looking at the trap speed for the 1/4 of the Golf TDI at about 85 MPH drives home this point - http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test

      Low RPM power and tight gearing can only do so much, sure it runs to 60 a tick or 2 faster than a lower torque car of similar HP, but over a long period of time (like the 1/4 mile) it is exposed and ultimately has a trap speed of 85 MPH ( about as fast as any other car with 140 WHP that weighs 3,000 lbs).
      It's hard to make a sport diesel, although BMW did it, and even then, since RPMs are
      limited, they won't be used for most types of racing. But for "blasting around town"
      they are perfectly capable.

      I have said for many years that for the average consumer, commuting, grocery-getting,
      running around town, and etc., that 99.99% of the time they are using their engines
      between idle and 4,000 RPMs.

      Given this, then diesels are just as good a choice as any gasser out there, if not
      better.

      As for "fun" that's a subjective thing; and the OP would have to decide that...
      Last edited by adoniram7; 04-13-2012 at 02:25 PM.

    22. Banned 85_305's Avatar
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      04-13-2012 04:31 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post

      As for "fun" that's a subjective thing; and the OP would have to decide that...
      Well let's be real here.. a 500hp VRT would be pretty much *fun* for ANYBODY. What I'm after is the fact that the mkiii jetta is so tiny and nimble and light, and the fact that I like to kick it down the backroads and hills where my family live. Being able to buzz around town, cruise on the highway, then haul nuts in the backroads is what I'm after.

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      04-13-2012 07:21 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by 85_305 View Post
      Well let's be real here.. a 500hp VRT would be pretty much *fun* for ANYBODY. What I'm after is the fact that the mkiii jetta is so tiny and nimble and light, and the fact that I like to kick it down the backroads and hills where my family live. Being able to buzz around town, cruise on the highway, then haul nuts in the backroads is what I'm after.
      I think what he means it that different strokes. Your car for example does not seem fun to me. Most FWD cars are not fun in fact. I can name the amount of fun FWD cars on one hand and none of them would be a VW. I don't care if it has 800 HP.

      500 HP in a FWD car seems like it would be fun for about 10 minutes then I would want to give it back.

      What you consider fun and what someone else does is the point here.

    24. Banned 85_305's Avatar
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      04-13-2012 07:53 PM #49
      And I was agreeing with him

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