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    Thread: why does the scca dislike the vr-6

    1. 04-12-2012 11:17 AM #1
      i recently acquired a 97 jetta glx and want to go club racing. i looked in the gcr and the only class that allows the vr6 in the jetta is the itb class. this class allows very limited modifications to the car. is there any one that races at the club level in national events with a vr6 in a class other that itb. i really want to go for a gt class but dont want to go with a 2.0 four cylinder.

      any help or info would be great!!!

    2. 04-12-2012 12:26 PM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by tjgstevens View Post
      i recently acquired a 97 jetta glx and want to go club racing. i looked in the gcr and the only class that allows the vr6 in the jetta is the itb class. this class allows very limited modifications to the car. is there any one that races at the club level in national events with a vr6 in a class other that itb. i really want to go for a gt class but dont want to go with a 2.0 four cylinder.

      any help or info would be great!!!
      Try NASA and the German Touring Series (GTS).

    3. 04-12-2012 02:34 PM #3
      i live in Minnesota so my options are limited. nasa and gtc do not have events in my area. i also want to be able to go racing in other states and with a scca car i can race with nasa.
      Last edited by tjgstevens; 04-12-2012 at 02:45 PM.

    4. Member chois's Avatar
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      04-13-2012 10:58 AM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by tjgstevens View Post
      i recently acquired a 97 jetta glx and want to go club racing. i looked in the gcr and the only class that allows the vr6 in the jetta is the itb class. this class allows very limited modifications to the car. is there any one that races at the club level in national events with a vr6 in a class other that itb. i really want to go for a gt class but dont want to go with a 2.0 four cylinder.

      any help or info would be great!!!
      The VR6 is actually classed in ITS, where a few have been built and been competitive.

      The other place it might fit is STU, though it may need a request to be listed.

      You could probably write a request to the Club Racing Board to request it be classed in E Production, which also allows a lot of modification.

      That said, my experience is that most racers don't prefer the VR due to the increased weight and the highger CG of the power train over the 4cyl motors.
      Chris
      2007 GTI 16v, 4 door, 6sp (well really that one is Brandy's)
      2004.5 Passat Wagon 20v, 1.8t, 4mo, 5sp
      1986 GTI 8v road racer - DIYAutoTune.com

    5. 04-13-2012 05:36 PM #5
      Car doesn't fit any national class but gt...it classes are not national classes, regional only so no runoffs for it cars. Gt allows a lot of modifications but takes an unlimited budget. I run a 1.8t scirocco in ITE, it's a regional it class and gets u on track racing door to door. Plus u can show up with pretty much any type of modified car as long as it passes safety for IT.

    6. 04-13-2012 05:38 PM #6
      Ps the vr6's are notorious over revivers from missed shifts, will blow up very easily in a racing environment, too much internal weight to spin well repeatedly from low rpm's. Not a good choice of race engines...

    7. 04-16-2012 12:03 PM #7
      For the worlds largest forum this motorsports forum sucks, no one even discusses what they started talking about. Too funny.....

    8. Member chois's Avatar
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      04-16-2012 03:20 PM #8
      A little grumpy today?

      What are you looking for about VR6 engines in SCCA road racing that is missing from the thread?
      Chris
      2007 GTI 16v, 4 door, 6sp (well really that one is Brandy's)
      2004.5 Passat Wagon 20v, 1.8t, 4mo, 5sp
      1986 GTI 8v road racer - DIYAutoTune.com

    9. 04-16-2012 03:38 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by 1stgen View Post
      For the worlds largest forum this motorsports forum sucks, no one even discusses what they started talking about. Too funny.....
      hmmmmm maybe try a motorsport forum? Since probably 10% of vortex members track there car and probably 0.5% actually race and know about classing cars.

    10. 04-17-2012 07:44 PM #10
      The point is I have the car and it is different. If I was to change the motor that would defeat the purpose. If I was to do a motor swap I'd go back to a Honda and get a b16 making 200+ Hp for half the money or get a corolla gts from the 80's and put an atlantic motor in it. Both motors are 1.6l and can make in excess of 250 Hp. I want to be able to do national events the June sprints being one of them. And I m ow the June sprints is a double regional. But that is not the point. I'll look in to gtu I for get about that class. That is the class you can run speed world challenge cars in (stu, ago, and sti) right??? As for the motor it is a great motor for all racing as long as you know how to drive. I have over 8 years racing in a Honda and have seen many blown up do to over reving and it all comes down to driver error!!!!! Also I did mis quote the class thank you for the correction.
      Last edited by tjgstevens; 04-17-2012 at 07:46 PM.

    11. 04-17-2012 10:04 PM #11
      Search for the Bildon VR6 Corrado, I believe they ran in ITS and were fairly successful.

      Keep in mind a VR6 is going to be a lot more $$$ to develop, I believe there is a thread somewhere from Bildon as to how much work they put into it, but a tuned vr6 sure does sound sweet.

    12. 04-17-2012 10:36 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by ITB45 View Post
      hmmmmm maybe try a motorsport forum? Since probably 10% of vortex members track there car and probably 0.5% actually race and know about classing cars.
      Most motorsports forums suck as well...improved touring.com, scca forums etc..I race ....sOrry for thinking this might be a good place for that.
      On topic...IT is NOT a national class, u want to run national build it to STU and go racing. Your not going to win ITS or STU...they are both extremely competitive classes. Especially in the northeast, I run in NEDIV in ITE. I had 40 other cars in class with me this year...ITB had like twice that. I won ITE in NEDIV but didn't have any dnf's or dns's. I run a reliable 1.8t de-tuned to make 200 wheel...a buddy of mine ran vr's for a couple of years and spent tons of money and raRely finished any race he started. This is racing....not drivers schools the car is at the limit the whole time not just occasionally. Plus if you have only done drivers schools and haven't raced yet you'l find out what I'm talking about.

    13. Member chois's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 11:58 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by tjgstevens View Post
      The point is I have the car and it is different. If I was to change the motor that would defeat the purpose. If I was to do a motor swap I'd go back to a Honda and get a b16 making 200+ Hp for half the money or get a corolla gts from the 80's and put an atlantic motor in it. Both motors are 1.6l and can make in excess of 250 Hp. I want to be able to do national events the June sprints being one of them. And I m ow the June sprints is a double regional. But that is not the point. I'll look in to gtu I for get about that class. That is the class you can run speed world challenge cars in (stu, ago, and sti) right??? As for the motor it is a great motor for all racing as long as you know how to drive. I have over 8 years racing in a Honda and have seen many blown up do to over reving and it all comes down to driver error!!!!! Also I did mis quote the class thank you for the correction.
      OK. Lets go back to the start then.

      What is the purpose? Is it to road race a VR6 in SCCA national club racing? Is it to road race a fwd car in SCCA national club racing? Is it to road race a VR6 somewhere, somehow? Is it to find a place to be competitive and win a national championship?

      We can list a thousand purposes, but will probably not guess yours.

      The reason a few of us have noted the ITS VR6 is two fold. This is the only class any of us have ever even heard of a VR competing in SCCA road racing, and it appears to be potentially competitive there.

      The VR6 would be perfectly legal in STU, but likely hopelessly outclassed. That said, with a free flowing budget, it could still win there.

      It may be possible to class the 12v VR in E Production, but you would need to ask the Club Racing Board to make that classification.

      If you need some more direction on how to do those things let me know and I can point you in the right direction.
      Last edited by chois; 04-18-2012 at 12:04 AM.
      Chris
      2007 GTI 16v, 4 door, 6sp (well really that one is Brandy's)
      2004.5 Passat Wagon 20v, 1.8t, 4mo, 5sp
      1986 GTI 8v road racer - DIYAutoTune.com

    14. 04-18-2012 03:25 PM #14
      How to go racing in 5 steps:

      1) How Much money are you willing to spend on a car and yearly budget?
      2) Pick a class that your budget fits into.
      3) Pick a car in that class and buy/build it
      4) Develop the car and driver based on funds from step 1
      5) When you are tired of winning every race, and still have money in your pocket, repeat step 1 for a different class.

      If you start at step 3 and go in reverse order, you end up exactly where you are. You have a car and no where to race it, then your left with going to the open classes such as STU, ITE, GT but then you need $$$$$$$$$ to be competitive and most likely a different car than you started with.

      Keep in mind a car like a VR6 is always going to be more expensive than a 4cyl. Same goes for more power.


      Have you ever raced before? Just cause classes like ITA and ITB don't have 200hp and unlimited rules, you will still have plenty of fun and have tons of work to do on the car. I would rather race a 100hp car with 20 people in my class, than a 300hp car with 3 people. Personally I think if you start with a car that you can do all the mods in the world to, you will never get far because you will spend more time and money working on the car than racing and you will have so many variables to play with plus learning to drive that you will never get the car to the front of the field. You will just keep throwing money at it. Go buy a used ITB or ITA car, race for 2-3 years and then take it from there, when you sell that car you will probably get close to what you paid so it will just have cost you maintenance and consumables.

    15. 04-18-2012 04:21 PM #15
      all good questions. the main point is to be able to road race the car i have. there are many opportunity's to race it locally with the bmw club, corvette club, and BIR (Brainerd international raceway) has there own track days. the biggest hurtle is getting licensed for each, they require a "experienced" racer to take you out in your car and then ride with you for your first 2-3 events. i do not feel this is safe as 1) some one who does not know my car will be driving it at speed and 2) if i hurt a passenger in my car its on me, besides having a passenger will upset the handling. the ultimately the purpose is to get my scca competition license so i dont have to deal with the bs rules for licensing with each group. i also want to be able to modify my car the way i want with out the restrictive rules improved touring class has with regards to the internal workings of the motor. i will be caging the car for safety and building a full race car. the car will not be on the street after i am done with it so that is not a concern. it appears that STU is the class for me. i am not looking at being the fastest car in my class just to get some seat time before i get a "real" race car IE i'd love to run a datsun 510 in gt3. or buy a old speed world challenge mazdaspeed3 as i have a mazdaspeed6 now or even a dsr or a f500.

      hope this helps with why i'm asking.

    16. 04-18-2012 04:34 PM #16
      IT sounds like you are still very new At this...no problem. With that said u want as much instructing or coaching that you can get. U also need as much seat time as possible, racing is a huge step uP from driver schools. Get a used racecar with a logbook, u need safety equip etc..the car should be simple and reliable unless u are a automotive technician who works on cars regularly and have the time to prep your own car. Old IT cars are a dime a dozen...it's not about driving solo btw.....

    17. 04-18-2012 04:57 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by 1stgen View Post
      IT sounds like you are still very new At this...no problem. With that said u want as much instructing or coaching that you can get. U also need as much seat time as possible, racing is a huge step uP from driver schools. Get a used racecar with a logbook, u need safety equip etc..the car should be simple and reliable unless u are a automotive technician who works on cars regularly and have the time to prep your own car. Old IT cars are a dime a dozen...it's not about driving solo btw.....


      The events you're detailing (Instructor driving your car at speed) aren't familiar to me - most racecars, except Showroom Stock, have only one seat so the only way you'd ride with an instructor is ratchet-strapped to the rollbar. Aside from that, you'd be surprised at how quickly a good driver can learn your car and be faster than you. Look at autocross event where a newbie who "knows" his/her car is being outdriven by a destructor whose only experience with the student's car is a sum-total of 3 minutes.

      While it's admirable that you want to race the car that you currently own, in many respects, that's a pipe-dream. It's good to know that you're aware the VR6 is classed as a boat-anchor (which it is). That said, there are better cars available to you that are significantly more competitive and will cost you less to purchase/build. In other words, don't waste money building a car. Rather, invest that money on the driver - it's a much better investment.

      Given your strong desire to run GT3, you have deep pockets - start with a school that will give you an SCCA comp license such as Skippy. Once you have the card in-hand, blow your wad on the car of your dreams - just be aware that to make a small fortune in racing, one must start with a large fortune...

    18. Member chois's Avatar
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      04-22-2012 03:41 PM #18
      I get wanting to use the car you have. Folks will say that this is a bad idea, because they put winning at the top of their goal list.

      If the real goal is to get licensed, does the Midwest Council of Sports Car Clubs run in your area? They might be another option to gain a competition license. More importantly, since you are really trying to gain experience to run with other groups, it sounds like you are placing an unnecessary restriction on the class needing to be National.

      If the concern is being able to modify the car the way you want, it sounds like you should just look at the ITE rules for CenDiv if you go SCCA. Do what you want to it, but make sure it meets the correct safety requirements. That is about it.

      If you are in the Minnesota area, look up RabbidMk1 aka Aaron Stehley. He has a lot of experience setting up and racing a very fast Mk3, though of the ITB 2 liter variety, but may have some useful input. He also may have a fairly well set up Mk5 race car available, if you decide to change cars at some point.

      Good luck with your path into motorsports. Take what all of us have with a grain of salt if it comes across the wrong way. All of it contains some combination of warnings, advice, pride and knowledge. Find what you need and use it.
      Chris
      2007 GTI 16v, 4 door, 6sp (well really that one is Brandy's)
      2004.5 Passat Wagon 20v, 1.8t, 4mo, 5sp
      1986 GTI 8v road racer - DIYAutoTune.com

    19. Member jungle's Avatar
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      04-27-2012 07:21 PM #19
      tjgstevens, I also live in MN.......and I would contend that NASA DOES race in our area....
      BIR, RA, MAM, Autobahn, Black Hawk.....basically all the same tracks as SCCA.

      The VR6 is the wrong car for road racing....if the motor was back 3" and down 2", or had an aluminum block, that would make all the difference. I say this despite dumping tons of $ in to my VR6. The work great for time trials/pdx. In ITE or ITS they wouldn't be competitive.

    20. 04-30-2012 01:46 PM #20
      The VR6 can be competitive and can make power reliably! I won the NASA southeast gts3 class in 2010 in my 96 gti. Cost for the season roughly 20k. My 12 valve motor makes 210 whp and is tuned for 115 octane. Again it can be done, but much more expensive than a 4 cyl. Even with the best of everything the 225's you can fit on the car will get very expensive, unless you wide body the car and run at least 245 tires. 4 cyl cars will wear front tires half as quick. I burned through 2-4 hoosiers a weekend, @ $250 per tire. On top of that, you will not be able to run more than a 30-40 min race in any kind of temp without front tires going away and loosing races to the m3's and 911's. My car is a ex speed world challenge prepped car from 2001 with 85k invested. So, to make a long story short, I love the power of a vr6 and had alot of fun, but in the end I retired the car and it is now being converted into a TDI rally car
      Last edited by 91 golf4drvr6; 05-01-2012 at 09:53 AM.

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      04-30-2012 10:52 PM #21
      not the same league but I've raced a mk3 golf in ChumpCar. the car has a 2.slo but i have a obd1 vr6. i was thinking about swapping in to try and get a bit more speed while maintaining reliability.

      the 2.0 slo has to be beaten mercilessly in any attempt to keep up and I was thinking the vr6 might have a bit more in reserve and could be driven a bit easier. in a stock tune, would the VR6 be a good idea?

    22. 05-01-2012 09:52 AM #22
      I wouldn't do it. You will have to change the whole set up to make the vr6 more effective. Power is not the only piece of the puzzel. The most effective motor for that car that would keep the set up the same, would be a 1.8t. A little more expensive than a vr6 up front, but much cheaper in the long run.

    23. 05-01-2012 10:39 AM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by 91 golf4drvr6 View Post
      Power is not the only piece of the puzzel.


      It gets tiresome to read about "My car ONLY has XXX hp - I need more because my car can't keep up with a 2.slo". This directly translates to "I can't drive my way out of a paper bag with directions - I need more hp to gain distance on the straights so that I won't get caught in the turns".

      Rant on...

      There are a few marque clubs that ascribe to that philosophy which is quite amusing to watch. A rookie student arrives with a base-model sports car - after 2-3 events, the student (who is still a rookie) starts playing the lap-time game. That student is told "You're not turning XX with that car? You need the (next model with more power)". The student, figuring that his peers MUST know more because they're all driving the super-star version of the car, buys the next model with more power.

      The student then improves by 1-2 seconds during the next 3-4 events. After that, the student talks to other participants who say "You're not turning XX with that car? You need the (next model with more power)". The student, figuring that his peers MUST know more because they're all driving the super-star version of the car, buys the next model with more power.

      This cycle repeats until the student purchases the ultimate track version of their car and STILL gets waxed by a lowly 2.slo. Why? Because while HP and car setup can be purchased, car control and talent are priceless. If that were different, I'd buy a vendor spot at every Driver's Education and Race event in the country and sell talent to these hapless drivers with bottomless wallets. Then I'd be driving a Nobel or an Ariel Atom...

      Rant off...

    24. Member jungle's Avatar
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      05-01-2012 02:41 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by red rabbit racer View Post
      not the same league but I've raced a mk3 golf in ChumpCar. the car has a 2.slo but i have a obd1 vr6. i was thinking about swapping in to try and get a bit more speed while maintaining reliability.

      the 2.0 slo has to be beaten mercilessly in any attempt to keep up and I was thinking the vr6 might have a bit more in reserve and could be driven a bit easier. in a stock tune, would the VR6 be a good idea?
      I wouldn't......the ABA is sooooo easy to work on, soooo reliable. The VR makes a lot of heat, harder to work on (less engine bay), and will go through tires & fuel faster. We do VERY, VERY well w/ our ABA. Learn to drive better, weld the diff, get a transmission that has better gear ratios, if you aren't running a chip and cam, GET ONE! You still won't run down E30's on horse power tracks, but you can out break them, keep up w/ them on the corners, and out torque them.


      ...91 golf4drvr6 .....you have that car now?!? I almost pulled the trigger on buying it 2x now.... your car is a frankensine that has nothing oem on it any more! Heck IIRC the original owner even had a custom k-frame and or motor mounts that moved the motor down and back a bit (which would be AWESOME!).

      I think the VR stands a better chance in whatever NASA PT? or GT? class than it does in SCCA's ITS.

    25. 05-07-2012 12:42 PM #25
      ...91 golf4drvr6 .....you have that car now?!? I almost pulled the trigger on buying it 2x now.... your car is a frankensine that has nothing oem on it any more! Heck IIRC the original owner even had a custom k-frame and or motor mounts that moved the motor down and back a bit (which would be AWESOME!).



      I think I have a different car? I have owned it since 2008. It does have alot of custom work done, but motor has not been relocated. It does have a custom front subframe, but stock K frame. I bought this car out of Button Willow. It was a monster with the vr in it though. Gave all GTS3 911's and e46 M3's a run for their money. It just wasn't ever going to be an endurance car or a niationally competitive car without alot more money being invested.

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      06-26-2012 05:13 PM #26
      Stick with the 2.slo. Get a cam and header for it. LeMons is all about endurance, as you know. I love the VR6 engine and have driven lots of track miles with them. Never had any failures at all, but tire wear is considerable. The 2.slo will get better mileage than the VR6 and in LeMons, that means fewer stops! My LeMons Jetta is a 1.8 8v and its slow as hell, but just runs all day long.

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      06-27-2012 10:23 AM #27
      Having made the progression from WOW that is cool, through a few years of HPDE and finally moving onto racing I will tell you that while the VR6 and all the cool stuff you WANT to do will wear off before the first season even starts.

      I spent a lot of time talking to almost half the racers here on the board and a huge circle outside of this. I then did some pricing and found that to build a car from the street would run nearly 10k just to make it safety legal and fun. And that was just looking at roll cage, race seat, suspension, kill switch etc.

      In the end I found a used roller with a bum motor for 2500, I had to spend about 700 to update the cage for the current rules, and found a long block for 500 bucks. I raced the car like for the first half of the season till I blew out 2nd gear on the start of a race. So a proper trans went into it next. From that point on I ran the car as it for another season with doing only maintinence, all for less then 10k.

      As for the car only being an ITB 1.8 MK2.....I have never had more fun in my life. 100HP sounds small till the start of your first race and your in a pack for 15-20 cars working for position. Just because your not setting lap times of the big and very expensive to operate cars, does not mean driving a car at its grip limit with true competition makes it any less fun.

    28. Senior Member Mk1Racer's Avatar
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      07-25-2012 09:18 AM #28
      ^^^Smart boy right there!

    29. Member chois's Avatar
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      07-25-2012 11:33 AM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by jamesb View Post
      As for the car only being an ITB 1.8 MK2.....I have never had more fun in my life. 100HP sounds small till the start of your first race and your in a pack for 15-20 cars working for position. Just because your not setting lap times of the big and very expensive to operate cars, does not mean driving a car at its grip limit with true competition makes it any less fun.
      QFT.

      Here is some video of "slow" ITB cars racing at Mid-Ohio. The camera car is a Porsche 924, the yellow car is a mk3 and the white A2 is my car. HP does not define excitement. Heck just watch the first two laps to figure that out... It was a 22 car field of "slow" cars.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4vP7...e_gdata_player

      In the Sunday Race video on that page all three cars were under the lap record, with the 924 the fastest.
      Last edited by chois; 07-25-2012 at 11:41 AM.
      Chris
      2007 GTI 16v, 4 door, 6sp (well really that one is Brandy's)
      2004.5 Passat Wagon 20v, 1.8t, 4mo, 5sp
      1986 GTI 8v road racer - DIYAutoTune.com

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