Ball Joint extenders

[RedYellowWhite]

First of all let me say that couldn't find anything using the search function here, so using this direct title for future reference...

I've got 2 questions regarding ball joint extenders:
1) why do the companies that produce them say that they are for "show use only" ???

I'm not dayling my Corrado but wouldn't want anything bad to happen/anything collapsing while driving

2) Anyone use them for street use for a period of time and has some feedback? (I know 1.8t rado has the PMW items: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...teaser%2Fpage4)

TIA
-Nick

[RedYellowWhite]

Found a case of ball joint extenders failing (even if those are home made)
http://www.ghiagirl.com/phrankentruk/balljoints.htm

[DeckManDubs]

Found a case of ball joint extenders failing (even if those are home made)
http://www.ghiagirl.com/phrankentruk/balljoints.htm

If you are going to get some, make sure that they are heat treated to ensure strength, but not too much that they become brittle. I would guess in the HRC 30-50 . But I would not suggest running them on the street due to the lack of long term testing.

Way I would do it : Have new knuckles cast with the ball joint position lowered so it is a replica of the factory unit. This is also the best way to solve the bump steer.

[ein]

If you are going to get some, make sure that they are heat treated to ensure strength, but not too much that they become brittle. I would guess in the HRC 30-50 . But I would not suggest running them on the street due to the lack of long term testing.

Agreed.

These are the ONLY ones I know of that seem to be done right.



http://www.pmwltd.com/products.php

[RedYellowWhite]

PMWs was one of my choices (quite expensive tho)

my 2nd one was these: http://ourtech.bigcartel.com/


Significally cheaper that PMWs....

[Cham]

I dont get why you wold like to have Extended Ball joints?

Whats the funtion about it...???

[VwG60Kid]

I dont get why you wold like to have Extended Ball joints?

Whats the funtion about it...???

So your control arms aren't pointing up into space... its for suspension geometry correction... or you could not slam the **** out of your car.

I don't understand the point of them for "show use only" since if that was the case why would you care... it seems like they would only benefit someone if they are actually driving the car.

[RedYellowWhite]

Bump...

Some info found here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...oint+extenders
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...oint+extenders
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...xtenders/page2
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?650333
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?988550

[RedYellowWhite]

And here's PMWs reply regarding safety issues/warranty/street use:

The ball joint extender increases the distance between the ball on the OEM ball joint and the pinch clamp on the upright. This creates a longer moment arm. This generates greater loads at the OEM pinch clamp and the pin on the extender, than would be seen at the pinch clamp and the OEM ball joint pin during acceleration braking and cornering. This design has been in use on a GTL Honda which has more than 100 races on it. It is used on a Rabbit that runs in prepared solo class that has been running for 5 years. There are a number of VW Vortex members who run these parts on their race cars. However that is a race invironment not the street. These parts have not been put through a 100,000 mile street life test. They have not been run through a 8" deep pot hole test. Do I warrenty these parts for street use? Not on your life. I have no control over how they are installed, or maintained, by the custumer. This is spelled out specifically in the installation instructions. Race cars tend to be maintained at a different level than a street car. How often does the average street car owner check the torque on suspension components? How often are the components inspected for damage or rust? Once the parts leave my shop, I lose control of them.

Do people run these on the street? I know that some people do. Do I recommend it? I have no data on street life cycle tests, so how can I?

I have been manufacturing these parts off and on for 15 years. I think they are a good safe product for a race invironment.

I do not feel they are over priced. Each part is completely machined by me. And when the machining operations are finished I spend 15 minites on each part removing burrs and sharp corners and puting a radius on every edge.

These parts perform too critical of a function for me to try to cut corners and lower the price.

The first 3 sets of the extenders I made were for people who had purchased extenders from other sources and had them fail. That is how I got into the design and build of extenders.

I have sold approximately 45 sets of extenders. I have never received notification of a failure. The majority of the parts have been sold overseas, in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. That raises the possibility that there may have been a failure of which I am not aware.

There have been numerous threads on VWvortex over the last few years, discussing extenders. It is interesting reading.

[ein]

PMWs was one of my choices (quite expensive tho)

my 2nd one was these: http://ourtech.bigcartel.com/


Significally cheaper that PMWs....

I'm going to spell this one out in black and white.

THIS VERSION (the one listed in this post) IS TOTAL JUNK.

It does not have a radius at the base of the post that mounts into the steering knuckle which results in a weak point that will cause it to break. It might last a while but I would NOT trust this design on MY car.

The PMW's also appear to be treated (hardened possibly, maybe shotpeened) it is tough to tell from the pics.

The few dollars saved will pale in comparison to the costs of repairing the damage from the part failing (repairing rockers, firewalls and pinchwelds SUCKS )

[RedYellowWhite]

I'm going to spell this one out in black and white.

THIS VERSION (the one listed in this post) IS TOTAL JUNK.

It does not have a radius at the base of the post that mounts into the steering knuckle which results in a weak point that will cause it to break. It might last a while but I would NOT trust this design on MY car.

The PMW's also appear to be treated (hardened possibly, maybe shotpeened) it is tough to tell from the pics.

The few dollars saved will pale in comparison to the costs of repairing the damage from the part failing (repairing rockers, firewalls and pinchwelds SUCKS )

Rob, appreciate the reply

I figured there would be something not good with those, considering also their price...I already send them an email, but no reply yet. The manufacturer of those is a member here and I read somewhere him saying that lots of people have been running his versions for a while with no reported issues.

What do you think of these then? (always in comparison with PMWs which seem to be the best):


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-GOLF-LO...item20c49ee4c3

[V-TEC this!!!]

H2Sport from Toronto area was working on a set of spindles that place the balljoint lower, they already had some for the mkIV platform and I know they were working on some for the mkII, mkIII and corrado.

Their website is currently down so I dont know what the progress has been, but honestly that would be the best option over balljoint extenders.

[RedYellowWhite]

H2Sport from Toronto area was working on a set of spindles that place the balljoint lower, they already had some for the mkIV platform and I know they were working on some for the mkII, mkIII and corrado.

Their website is currently down so I dont know what the progress has been, but honestly that would be the best option over balljoint extenders.

Yeah, I would love to see this^^
Please post if you hear/read anything

...looks like its the safe route to go - the more I read the more I realise that I would be risking running the extenders on a street car

[ein]

Nick, that other design looks much better but I'd still like to know what is done to the metal on any of these extenders. Dezego or Noah are the two on here that might know what the metals involved (spindle and own ball joints) are so the extender isn't too hard or too soft.

Ideally you want the extender to bend before it breaks so you don't have a catastrophic failure.

In regard to the H2Sport spindles, full replacements are usually spendy. Someone makes ones for the EVO but they're $2500 a side.

[denongt]

is not fit to vr6

[DeckManDubs]

The ball joints are normally made out of 52100 steel or similar grade. I will try to draw up the weak point of this design tonight to show where the break issue is.

[RedYellowWhite]

Nick, that other design looks much better but I'd still like to know what is done to the metal on any of these extenders. Dezego or Noah are the two on here that might know what the metals involved (spindle and own ball joints) are so the extender isn't too hard or too soft.

Ideally you want the extender to bend before it breaks so you don't have a catastrophic failure.

In regard to the H2Sport spindles, full replacements are usually spendy. Someone makes ones for the EVO but they're $2500 a side.

Rob, thanks
IMO, Noah should make some, there's a gap in the market, lol

The ball joints are normally made out of 52100 steel or similar grade. I will try to draw up the weak point of this design tonight to show where the break issue is.

Great

[RedYellowWhite]

Are VR's more forgiving than G60s in terms of lowering/CA being level???

[DeckManDubs]

Nick,

Here is a quick solid model I just did. Close to the example you are showing but more to explain the weak point where they tend to fail.



The area where the OEM ball joint top bolts into the extension the wall between the male end of the extension and female tends to be the fail point, due to the axial load angle is centralized on a hard edge. There is no support and as I am sure you know the further you extend something from its mounting point being unsupported, the more likely it will sheer/break/bend at the strongest point.

Heat treating helps, but it can also make things worse by making the part more prone for fracturing opposed to when the metal is softer it will bend.

The real solution to this as I mentioned prior is for a new hub to be made. But I feel the price and R&D to get it done would make it not exactly desirable. 1200-2500 per hub is not cheap mod money to go low

The PMW post is spot on, people who race cars tend to replace stuff prior to it breaking based off a calculated lifespan of the part. Like how the Porsche Cup engines are normally rebuilt after 40-80 hours. Brake calipers are scrapped after a season.

I know Shine racing use to sell their full spherical rear beam bearing kit. They needed replacement after a track season or 500 miles of street use

There was a whole slew of manufactures that were/are making control arms for the TT's/R32's that use spherical bearings without any protection and history repeated itself as many arms broke and lucky for the community no one was hurt. I would have their balls in a vise if I was told that I do not have to worry about them due to them being tested on the track. Track does not =/> street. Street use sees neglect to epic proportions. Now lucky for me, I know better and replace the control arm bushings regularly and keep a very careful eye on all components for any potential deforming/failure/unusual operation.

Hope this helps

Are VR's more forgiving than G60s in terms of lowering/CA being level???

Same in my book. You always want them parallel to the ground or with a slight downward angle towards the ball joint to allow for suspension compression at speed. I noticed a 1" lowering @ 140-170+ MPH in the rear of the car when the front and rear had the same wheel gap. Raising the rear up 1/2" got a much more stable steering feel at speeds above 140 as the front of the car was maintaining a proper angle of attack.

[RedYellowWhite]

Noah, thanks for the info

What if balljoint extenders were made shorter? (most are 50mm or 70mm long). Thus, correcting a little the CA angle but not completely returning them to their parallel position... Would that make them somehow more safe for street use?

[V-TEC this!!!]

Don't think they can be much shorter because the ball joint has to fit inside the adapter, which in turn has to fit into the spindle. And there has to be enough material in between to make it safe.

Maybe an adapter can be made to make the ball joint mount higher in the control arm. I don't have either control arm or ball joint in front of me so there is no way I can know if it would even work. It is a concept I came up with just now. The bolts for the ball joint would go through the ball joint, adapter and control arm.

[MikkiJayne]

Maybe an adapter can be made to make the ball joint mount higher in the control arm. I don't have either control arm or ball joint in front of me so there is no way I can know if it would even work. It is a concept I came up with just now. The bolts for the ball joint would go through the ball joint, adapter and control arm.

That wouldn't work because the ball is in the same place relative to the spindle. You would effectively make a virtual control arm pointing from the inner joint to the ball which would have the same problem as stock, even though the actual control arm might look better. Moving the pivot point (ie the ball in the joint) relative to the bearing is the key thing here

The best solution I've seen is to cut the ball joint mounting off and weld it back on a couple of inches lower. The spindle is steel so can be welded just fine as long as you don't distort the bearing housing. A friend built some a while back for a Scirocco, but the concept is the same for the Corrado, and saves spending $000s on custom castings. I'll see if I can get a picture.

If you wanted to be really baller you could machine it from a solid billet of aluminium like WRC cars do

[V-TEC this!!!]

Good call on that Mikki, I didn't look at it like that. There goes my million dollar idea.

[V-TEC this!!!]

Here is something I stumbled upon just now, worth a look:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...re-for-testies

[DeckManDubs]

Here is something I stumbled upon just now, worth a look:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...re-for-testies

Works awesome at the track. Spherical bearings wont last long on the street. Jarod makes some nice stuff!

[RedYellowWhite]

I'm sad to say that personally I'm abording this idea (ball joint extenders) due to the fact that most (if not all) reports I found say they ain't street use safe and/or lack of long term feedback on daily driver cars...

Bump steer it is

[V-TEC this!!!]

You can always get rid of some of the bump steer with a tie rod flip kit. It wont make it all go away but at least some of it.

[RedYellowWhite]

You can always get rid of some of the bump steer with a tie rod flip kit. It wont make it all go away but at least some of it.

From what I've read, the tie-rod flip kit must be used together with the balljoint extenders, otherwise you'll face some negative handling

[MikkiJayne]

Yeah if you use one without the other you change the relationship between the tie rod and the control arm and you will get some heinous bump steer.

[V-TEC this!!!]

I found something like this while browsing through the mkIV forums, check it out:

[IMG][/IMG]

[MikkiJayne]

Thats very interesting ^ I'd thought about doing something like that at the back of the V8 but thats the first time I've ever seen it done in real life

[RedYellowWhite]

Nice!!! That looks much safer

[V-TEC this!!!]

With something like that it could probably still be designed to use the OEM ball joint. But it definately looks sturdier than the regular extenders.