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    Thread: Confusion. Sputtering rabbit 1.8 CIS car.

    1. Member rabbitnothopper's Avatar
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      05-06-2012 05:19 AM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by canexrabbit View Post
      Why would you ever want one of those^^^

      if its 100% electric i wouldnt care if it came with free boobs, i want......free


      ok sooo......back to spark

      have you checked the distributor, are the wires ok? is it a hall effect or a points type?

      most likely a Points type? 77?? "oh wait hes got an 1.8gti" nevermind throw that out the window

      Quote Originally Posted by blackohio View Post

      Car doesnt have a ICM so I can rule that out.

      you need the "ICU" in the rain tray to control spark bro......thats what it does "ignition control unit"

      it has a metal "heatsink" attached to it and some grounding straps

      here is a brand new one on rockauto...



      they arent really too expensive new and should generally rarely fail

      otherwise youre running a K-Jetronic CIS? ok so where is your ECU for that? passenger side inner door under the dash?

      checked your Ignition coil wiring?

      hmmmmmmm........

      ok hey usually posting pictures of the engine bay, the hack job, and the items you replaced or trashed or swapped in usually is a HUGE help, we are visual learners right?
      therefore i suggest pictures of engine bay

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      Throbbing Maroon Dildo
      05-06-2012 11:40 AM #27
      Points type distro. All wires are clean and free of cracks (well the only wire on it going to the coil) vacum line is good to throttle body.

      It was my understanding that the ICM didnt start until years later. From what I can see the car is running the '77 CIS and all it's parts.

      pics will come later, i'm doing all the electrical tests today.
      card carrying autocrat.

      my sofa pulls out, but I don't.

    3. Member rabbitnothopper's Avatar
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      05-06-2012 10:35 PM #28
      check the gap on your points then.....
      check the condenser (not sure how)
      check the green wire from the condenser to the ignition coil

      thats about it for the points.....


      the bentley shows you how to properly gap the points system....


      also im fairly certain that when you start mixing CIS-Basic (ie, no hz valve fuel distributor, no o2, no icm, no hall effect) from the 77 with a later 1.8 from a GTI CIS-kJetronic ( hz valve, o2, icm, hall effect) then youre having problems already
      not that you cant mix and match this stuff, its more that doing so will bring complexities unforseen......

      i have both, 78 cis basic & 81 cis-kjetronic
      i would rather have the k-jetronic over the basic but plenty of people would argue with me

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      Throbbing Maroon Dildo
      05-06-2012 10:59 PM #29
      gapped the points correctly with feeler gauge and by turning the crank. Im fairly certain thats not the issue.

      Im failing to see where swapping a head/block over really makes much of a difference in terms of running the car. The distro/coil/cis box doesnt know or care if its the 1.7 or 1.8.


      I ended up pinching a nerve in my neck today and wasnt able to check wiring whatnot. Hopefully tomorrow i'll get to spent time on it or the next day.

      This yellow wire coming off the coil and running up into the fuse box is what im thinking might be my culprit, but to really get to it and where the PO spliced it i need to pull steering wheel and cluster again.
      card carrying autocrat.

      my sofa pulls out, but I don't.

    5. Member rabbitnothopper's Avatar
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      05-06-2012 11:12 PM #30
      hmmmm yellow wire....

      is it on terminal 1 or terminal 15?

      terminal 1 is all about signal from the distributor (also can run to tach)

      terminal 15 should of course be battery in the on state

      hmmm i never really looked where the wires from ignition coil terminal 15 go to

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      Throbbing Maroon Dildo
      05-06-2012 11:35 PM #31
      Ill have to look where it's been spliced into, my guess is it's to the tach. Tomorrows adventure will tell me better as well as tracing from the coil to the fusebox.

      Aside from vacum the only thing on my dizzy goes to the neg. (if I remember correctly) terminal of the coil. But none of this has been changed and everything worked fine up until the killing of the fuel pump.

      Positive side has a few different lines (including the yellow - along with the remaining wiring going into the fusebox (all of which i'll check tomorrow. I put a test light on the +/- coil terminals and it lit up so the circuit is complete.

      Did the same to the fuel pump with the key in the start position and the light didnt come on (so thats another issue but could that be related to why it's not getting spark as well?
      card carrying autocrat.

      my sofa pulls out, but I don't.

    7. Member rabbitnothopper's Avatar
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      05-06-2012 11:47 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by blackohio View Post
      Ill have to look where it's been spliced into, my guess is it's to the tach. Tomorrows adventure will tell me better as well as tracing from the coil to the fusebox.

      Aside from vacum the only thing on my dizzy goes to the neg. (if I remember correctly) terminal of the coil. But none of this has been changed and everything worked fine up until the killing of the fuel pump.

      Positive side has a few different lines (including the yellow - along with the remaining wiring going into the fusebox (all of which i'll check tomorrow. I put a test light on the +/- coil terminals and it lit up so the circuit is complete.

      Did the same to the fuel pump with the key in the start position and the light didnt come on (so thats another issue but could that be related to why it's not getting spark as well?

      hrrmmmm.....
      fuel pump relay?
      try bypassing it and checking it for continuity (your test light...)
      get a DMM man, its the year 2012 already

      on the fusebox jumper terminal 30 (battery) to terminal 87 (output)
      you should hear the pump or if not you should check for voltage at the pump

      you can test the relay using the battery
      jumper pin 85 signal to pin 86 negative and the relay should click


      your ignition coil converts battery (alt) voltage from low voltage DC
      to high voltage DC on the spark plugs & wires
      the signals that tell the ignition coil when to do this are in the distributor and ICM
      the ICM (on cis-k-jetronic) cars is located on a heatsink in the rain tray


      yes terminal 1 is - negative and terminal 15 is + positive, depending on your coil markings


      damn, ignore the ICM stuff, i keep forgetting you dont have that stuff because you dont have a hall effect distributor
      haha

      hope this info helps you bro, let us know whats up

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      Throbbing Maroon Dildo
      05-07-2012 12:02 AM #33
      I have a multimeter, well as of this am before my neck went banannas.

      removing the harness for the fuel pump relay and checking for continuity with the light yesterday it light up, now the brand new relay could possibly be bad, i'll have to try to locate the old one and see if theres any change.

      But it did run after doing the fuel pump, filter and relay. Drive it around the block a few times. Then tried moving it last weekend to re-install the rear seats and it died and wouldnt start back up.
      card carrying autocrat.

      my sofa pulls out, but I don't.

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      Throbbing Maroon Dildo
      05-08-2012 04:18 PM #34
      Alright so a couple of pics.

      I unplugged the shadetree alarm and have just the wires to deal with. With these wires (were all connected going to the toggle) disconnected when i fire the car it does exactly the same thing. Relay clicks, dash lights flicker a bit.

      The two circled leads used to run to the plastic brown Y-splitter that ran to one post of the toggle,

      Also this black with green stripe connected to the yellow lead that went to the toggle switch, whats it's home?

      In this photo two wires are circled. Red w/ white stripe that runs into a harness and through the firewall. When I trace that it appears to go to the fuel plate (CPR) harness on the block.

      ...and the red with yellow stripe going from the Fuel pump relay to where?

      So in-short the wires im trying to find their original homes in this pic are
      Black w/ green stripe
      Red w/ white stripe
      Red w/ yellow stripe



      What I'm trying to figure here is where did these originally go to on the fusebox? There are a few open spade type terminals along the top I assume the can go to but which ones? Looking at the wiring diagrams im equally lost.

      Next, I found a single red lead with a shielded cover unplugged. Because I have the steering wheel cover back on Im not sure exactly where it goes. I know it goes into one of the harnesses up into the steering column, but not sure which one. Where does this guy go as well.
      Last edited by blackohio; 05-08-2012 at 04:23 PM.
      card carrying autocrat.

      my sofa pulls out, but I don't.

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      Throbbing Maroon Dildo
      05-08-2012 07:24 PM #35
      Semi interesting development. When I put +/i directly to the fuel pump it just clunks once. No hum.

      This is a brand new fuel pump as well.
      card carrying autocrat.

      my sofa pulls out, but I don't.

    11. Member rabbitnothopper's Avatar
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      05-10-2012 12:19 AM #36
      pretty sure the fuel pumps use PWM (pulse width modulation) to spin and not constant DC

      there are several stock factory connectors behind the fusebox which were never plugged in and left for accessories

      i will have to dig through my photos and manual this weekend to see what I can find for you

      and the Red/Yellow wire for the fuel pump relay DOES go to something, i have to find photo or diagram

      the Black/Green wire i remember seeing but cant think of what it was

      the solid red with plug probally does not actually connect anywhere (accessory option line)

      will get back to you fri/sat

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      Throbbing Maroon Dildo
      05-10-2012 01:14 AM #37
      Cool, I wont be working on it this weekend at all as I have the gf's parents in-town.

      thanks!


      put this together from some things I found here/there. I'm going to check to see if that black/green (which goes to the rear harness) hasnt been removed from the A8 location in the above diagram.

      As for the red/yel and red/white but based on the diagrams here I don't seem to see any real homes for those wires. The red/yel obviously comes out of the fuel pump relay but no idea where it goes, and as best I can tell the red/white travels into the engine harness and out to the control pressure regulator or WUR or whatever you want to call it on the block.
      Last edited by blackohio; 05-10-2012 at 01:20 AM.
      card carrying autocrat.

      my sofa pulls out, but I don't.

    13. Member Rannoch's Avatar
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      05-10-2012 02:47 AM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by blackohio View Post
      Semi interesting development. When I put +/i directly to the fuel pump it just clunks once. No hum.

      This is a brand new fuel pump as well.
      Quote Originally Posted by rabbitnothopper View Post
      pretty sure the fuel pumps use PWM (pulse width modulation) to spin and not constant DC
      Nope.

      The CIS pump will (and should) spin under constant 12vdc. That's why you can jumper the relay to test the pump.

      It looks like your pump is trying to commit suicide again. It sucked in crap (varnish/rust) from your tank. You can clean the pump but you'll just be in the same boat down the road when it happens again.

      Clean the tank. Clean the pump. Make sure that none of the hoses are falling apart, inner AND outer lining for double wall hoses.

      The inner lining on my Scirocco's feed hose was damaged and broke apart, killing my first pump.
      The rust/varnish choked my second pump, I was able to clean it and put in a new tank.

      Good luck.

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      Throbbing Maroon Dildo
      05-10-2012 03:09 AM #39
      New tank in in the agenda. If Im going to take the time to drop it, im gonna spent the moeny for a new one and new lines.

      Working on a higher res version of the diagram above. If anyone has any additional info or known edits let me know.

      I know the Fuel Pump Relay is missing and would like to add that as well.
      card carrying autocrat.

      my sofa pulls out, but I don't.

    15. Member rabbitnothopper's Avatar
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      05-15-2012 12:06 AM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by blackohio View Post


      .
      my 78 pics for reference









      AC stuff, "factory"


      (hold up, will edit information)
      my car is covered in newspaper until tomarrow (been painting some areas)
      i can pull down my fusebox after that when i can open the door

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...uel+pump+relay
      there are no diagrams of the vw work-arounds in the bentley manuals


      i would suggest a test probe or voltmeter to black/green over to your wur red/white wire @ connector
      if so, well i cant for certain find where the work-around black/green wire went to except to the back of the relay itself
      dont put it back into A8, it wont do anything because it was bypassed.
      the black/green wire may also just simply go directly to your fuel pump +12v
      remove the electrical tape and yellow wire, whats under all that junk? (from the alarm system)


      your second Pic,the red wire with a white clip on it
      accessory, almost entirely certain it is not used
      you can check that it has battery power in key off/on
      but i remember there being 3 wires behind my box which were unused and after deciding they were unused i left them there
      you can even check the manual, there are wires which dead end on the circuit diagrams


      red/white wire
      this is strange one, the only location i see a red/white wire in the nearby vicinity is the cpr/wur/aar which was T fitted to the black/green wire
      you should have a red/white wire on the igniton coil, check to see if you have continuity from there to this wire


      still looking for diagram for the red/yellow wire for the fuel pump relay


      incase anyone else is totally lost by what im saying

      just look here and diagram for us

    16. Member rabbitnothopper's Avatar
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      05-15-2012 01:32 AM #41
      ok fun thread here

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...1#post67161102

      this is your information:

      Back in the late 1970's, VW was having a problem with the melting/burning of Pin A8 in Socket A on the back of the fuse panel with ceramic fuses due to the high current load created by the CIS fuel pump. Pin A8 provided +12VDC via a BLACK/GREEN wire to the fuel pump and to Control Pressure Regulator and to the Auxiliary Air Regulator.

      What VW did to eliminate this design problem with the melting/burning of Pin A8 was to totally remove the internal circuit of L14 (socket L) to pin A8 (socket A) and install a remote fuel pump socket and extension harness with an auxiliary plug that plugged into socket L.

      Voltage from terminal L13 (socket L) is now routed to terminal #2 of the remote fuel pump socket via a large RED wire of the extension wiring harness.

      The voltage output to the CIS fuel pump is now provided by terminal #8 of the remote socket on a large RED/YELLOW wire to a "pigtail" connector with two RED/WHITE wires on one branch and a BLACK/GREEN wire (ie fuel pump wire) on the other branch of the pigtail connector.
      i think you should ignore the "two red/white wires" and believe it to be one red/white wire

      so just make a 3 way spade connector and plug red/yellow into red/white into black/green
      and start the car bro

    17. Member rabbitnothopper's Avatar
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      05-15-2012 02:18 AM #42
      ok and back to square one, just to keep you guessing
      and to keep you working hard to think about how to fix things!

      Quote Originally Posted by blackohio View Post
      Alright quick heads-up. 77 CIS Rabbit w/ 1.8 GTI motor. Car ran outta gas last week, sputtered and died on the side of the road (gas gauge isnt working at the moment) Put gas in fired right up and drove home.
      NEED MOAR GAS
      Quote Originally Posted by blackohio View Post
      On the way it hiccuped a couple of times pretty good like it hit the rev limiter. Today I threw a new air filter in, and injector O-rings. Airbox is seated correctly and O-rings push in and stay in (a bit loose but they dont pop out)
      low fuel (out of gas) will hiccup kick and sputter...dont ask me how i know (yes i have run out of gas twice) but its just that i know....

      Quote Originally Posted by blackohio View Post
      It'll have a hot start issue every once in awhile. I fired it right up after the o-rings and went off on a drive, about 1 mile it it started sputtering and died out. Feels like its running on 1/2 cylinder. It barely idles and backfires bad. I give it any amount of gas and it wont idle above maybe 500rpm.
      hot start -- your fuel pump has a relief check valve that may become stuck, this is common
      or if you have an automatic the starter motor needs to be relayed to prevent heat-soak (no start)


      i forget, have you checked the fuel pressure yet?

      another thing you can do to test the fuel pump directly is to remove the +12v wire on the pump
      add your digital multimeter (10amp) between that wire and the fuel pump (using a lead wire)
      do you know how to measure Amperes?...dont blow the fuses.....
      always in series (pointA+ meter wire Bneg to meter wireApos to pointB+) keep the wires flowing in the correct direction
      ok the manual says that if your amperes is above 8.5amps in that situation then you need to consider replacing your fuel pump



      hopefully all this stuff youre replacing, wires youre fixing, etc just simply fixes the problem
      damn im tired

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      Throbbing Maroon Dildo
      05-16-2012 01:11 PM #43
      So fuseboxes are different between the model I bought and I have.

      But I found the vw A fusebox part number cross references to a porsche part (which is cheaper) 477 941 813
      card carrying autocrat.

      my sofa pulls out, but I don't.

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      Throbbing Maroon Dildo
      05-30-2012 08:20 PM #44
      Well put the new fusebox in, no luck. bummer.

      decided today to pull and test the fuel pump (got the death clunk from it), and you guys were right, gas tank killed pump number two.

      Now it's time to buy a new gas tank and fuel pump and filter. yay.

      with any luck that resolves the non-running issue.
      card carrying autocrat.

      my sofa pulls out, but I don't.

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