Confusion. Sputtering rabbit 1.8 CIS car.

[blackohio]

Alright quick heads-up. 77 CIS Rabbit w/ 1.8 GTI motor. Car ran outta gas last week, sputtered and died on the side of the road (gas gauge isnt working at the moment) Put gas in fired right up and drove home.

On the way it hiccuped a couple of times pretty good like it hit the rev limiter. Today I threw a new air filter in, and injector O-rings. Airbox is seated correctly and O-rings push in and stay in (a bit loose but they dont pop out)

It'll have a hot start issue every once in awhile. I fired it right up after the o-rings and went off on a drive, about 1 mile it it started sputtering and died out. Feels like its running on 1/2 cylinder. It barely idles and backfires bad. I give it any amount of gas and it wont idle above maybe 500rpm.

Check all the vacuum lines all looks good there.

I have a fuel accumulator on order as well as a new fuel filter.

Any help or direction?

The car.

[blackohio]

Also how loud is the CIS pump? I turn the ignition on and hear nothing via under the car or through the filler neck I hear barely anything (nothing mechanical, just seashell noise.)

[hyperlightboards48]

Sounds like its not getting enough fuel.

You should be able to hear the pump prime when you turn the key on.

Jump the fuel pump relay to isolate what might be wrong:

• Jump terminals 30 and 87. If the pumps run, the wiring to and from the pumps is fine.
• Jump terminals 15 and 87 and turn the ignition key to "on" (not "start"). If the pumps run, the ignition wiring is good.
• Connect terminal 31 to ground and check for continuity. If there is continuity, the ground connections are good.
• If all of the above tests are passed, that leaves the ignition coil feed to check (consult your repair manual for instructions).

Also check the fuse (#5).

A couple of good links
http://www.cabby-info.com/fuel.htm
http://www.cabby-info.com/images/Fue...leshooting.jpg

[ChE_UND_09]

Is your frequency valve working? When you jump your pump you should be able to hear it buzzing under the hood. Have you checked all your fuel pressures? If not, that's always a good spot to start.

[blackohio]

I havent really checked anything yet. Was just brainstorming. Im guessing it's probably the fuel pump and im gonna throw another in. The car has 220K and no idea if thats the original FP.

[blackohio]

Sounds like its not getting enough fuel.

You should be able to hear the pump prime when you turn the key on.



A couple of good links
http://www.cabby-info.com/fuel.htm
http://www.cabby-info.com/images/Fue...leshooting.jpg

good links thanks!

[SGLoki]

tank ran dry, sucked up a bunch of crap... needs a new filter, maybe a new tank.

[blackohio]

Ok, new filter, fuel pump and relay. Hear fuel pump prime. Car still stutters and stammers and backfires. Wont really run at all.

Cracked fuel line at CIS block and pressure is there. Any thoughts? Jump time possibly?

[anlxn]

pull the fuel filter off carefully not to spill the fuel,then dump it into a good clean clear container and check for water. you may have to shake the filter some and dump it out the inlet side

[blackohio]

think theres water in the tank? when i swapped filters it was fuel that came out it didnt appear to be mixed, but I didnt pour it into a glass.

[bmxguy]

in for some possibilities. my caddy with a 16v is doing similar things but i think its electrical related. check your timing and the condition of tune up parts. never overlook the basics. cap/rotor/plugs/wires/grounds/timing

[blackohio]

Cap/wires/plugs/rotor all have about 40 miles on them.

Check for spark is next, then look at timing.

[SGLoki]

Second time....

Tank ran dry...

Sucked up rust...


Pull the rear seat, pull the door that houses the fuel gage sender... Look inside...

see rust?
Replace the tank.
and probably the fuel level sender would be good to replace too.


The pump was probably fine.

[blackohio]

77 doesnt have the door. Gotta drop the tank.

Pump was def. dead. ran direct 12V to it and never came on. New pump kicks on.

Symptoms are exactly the same as before, which is why I was thinking it jumped time since its still sputtering/backfiring.

[8v-of-fury]

Symptoms are exactly the same as before, which is why I was thinking it jumped time since its still sputtering/backfiring.

They would be the same too if the in tank pickup is full of rust and debris.

You can only lead the horse to the water..

[blackohio]

didnt realize these old cars had an in-tank pump as well since theres no good access to the pump.

I realized I might need a new tank and that'll be one of the things to look at here soon.

[8v-of-fury]

No in tank pump until mk2. The in tank pickup tube, that then feeds the line to the engine bay.. It is probably gunked up and crap. Unfortunate about no spy hole in the seat..

[blackohio]

yeah, kinda miss the mk3's for that lovely simplification.

Well I might need to do the timing belt anyhow so it'll be good to just just all the stuff out of the way at once.

Are the bowls the injector/o-ring sit in the head replaceable? I have a bit of looseness to some of the injectors (even with new o-rings) and thought it might be good to replace those if possible.

[nairmac]

Hmmm....
Is your tach being weird? Maybe the coil since it kinda runs the pump and tach and ignition.
Make sure those injector o rings are pressed in there good and tight.
Distributor cap locked down securely.
Distributor tightened down securely.
Rotor pushed down all the way.

[blackohio]

So in an interesting turn of events. Pulled the intake boot off the CIS plate. wiped the plate down (wasnt sticking or anything) Pulled the cap/rotor off checked it all. Thew it all back on and it fired right up and ran instantly.

Im guessing there was probably **** still in the fuel lines somewhere that got sucked away. dunno but game on.

So it's time to probably buy a new gas tank.

[blackohio]

Alrighty gentleman the saga continues.

Car ran for a few days. Put more gas it started it up a couple of days ago and as I let off the clutch it died. Now no spark.

Since alot of the parts are cheap enough I replaced the ig points, ig switch and ig coil.

I tested the new coil theres power at terminals. I pulled a plug wire and cranked and got no spark.

Car doesnt have a ICM so I can rule that out. Could the disto have **** the bed or the hall sensor?

Theres one yellow wire coming off the coil and running through the rain tray to the fuse panel where its spiced into another line. Im going to check that tomorrow. Also replaced the neg ground to tranny and positive line to starter.

Im a little stumped here. I made sure the plug wires are all pushed in tightly and making contact with the metal parts.

So far since sucking **** up from the tank the replaced parts have been:
Fuel Pump
Fuel Filter
Little 3 prong resistor on back of cluster
Cap/Rotor
Plugs
Plug Wires
Ignition Switch
Fuel Pump Relay
Ignition Coil
Ignition Points
Battery Cables (+ and -)


It's def. no spark.

[rabbitnothopper]

spark is overrated anyways


you have a bentley?


have you checked the COLOR of your spark, if you have spark?

blue is good spark

yellow is bad spark


check each wire to make sure all 4 give spark

[blackohio]

Absolutely zero spark.

[eurojettanut]

Absolutely zero spark.

sorry for being no help.but got one for you...

[canexrabbit]

Why would you ever want one of those^^^

[rabbitnothopper]

Why would you ever want one of those^^^

if its 100% electric i wouldnt care if it came with free boobs, i want......free


ok sooo......back to spark

have you checked the distributor, are the wires ok? is it a hall effect or a points type?

most likely a Points type? 77?? "oh wait hes got an 1.8gti" nevermind throw that out the window

Car doesnt have a ICM so I can rule that out.

you need the "ICU" in the rain tray to control spark bro......thats what it does "ignition control unit"

it has a metal "heatsink" attached to it and some grounding straps

here is a brand new one on rockauto...



they arent really too expensive new and should generally rarely fail

otherwise youre running a K-Jetronic CIS? ok so where is your ECU for that? passenger side inner door under the dash?

checked your Ignition coil wiring?

hmmmmmmm........

ok hey usually posting pictures of the engine bay, the hack job, and the items you replaced or trashed or swapped in usually is a HUGE help, we are visual learners right?
therefore i suggest pictures of engine bay

[blackohio]

Points type distro. All wires are clean and free of cracks (well the only wire on it going to the coil) vacum line is good to throttle body.

It was my understanding that the ICM didnt start until years later. From what I can see the car is running the '77 CIS and all it's parts.

pics will come later, i'm doing all the electrical tests today.

[rabbitnothopper]

check the gap on your points then.....
check the condenser (not sure how)
check the green wire from the condenser to the ignition coil

thats about it for the points.....


the bentley shows you how to properly gap the points system....


also im fairly certain that when you start mixing CIS-Basic (ie, no hz valve fuel distributor, no o2, no icm, no hall effect) from the 77 with a later 1.8 from a GTI CIS-kJetronic ( hz valve, o2, icm, hall effect) then youre having problems already
not that you cant mix and match this stuff, its more that doing so will bring complexities unforseen......

i have both, 78 cis basic & 81 cis-kjetronic
i would rather have the k-jetronic over the basic but plenty of people would argue with me

[blackohio]

gapped the points correctly with feeler gauge and by turning the crank. Im fairly certain thats not the issue.

Im failing to see where swapping a head/block over really makes much of a difference in terms of running the car. The distro/coil/cis box doesnt know or care if its the 1.7 or 1.8.


I ended up pinching a nerve in my neck today and wasnt able to check wiring whatnot. Hopefully tomorrow i'll get to spent time on it or the next day.

This yellow wire coming off the coil and running up into the fuse box is what im thinking might be my culprit, but to really get to it and where the PO spliced it i need to pull steering wheel and cluster again.

[rabbitnothopper]

hmmmm yellow wire....

is it on terminal 1 or terminal 15?

terminal 1 is all about signal from the distributor (also can run to tach)

terminal 15 should of course be battery in the on state

hmmm i never really looked where the wires from ignition coil terminal 15 go to

[blackohio]

Ill have to look where it's been spliced into, my guess is it's to the tach. Tomorrows adventure will tell me better as well as tracing from the coil to the fusebox.

Aside from vacum the only thing on my dizzy goes to the neg. (if I remember correctly) terminal of the coil. But none of this has been changed and everything worked fine up until the killing of the fuel pump.

Positive side has a few different lines (including the yellow - along with the remaining wiring going into the fusebox (all of which i'll check tomorrow. I put a test light on the +/- coil terminals and it lit up so the circuit is complete.

Did the same to the fuel pump with the key in the start position and the light didnt come on (so thats another issue but could that be related to why it's not getting spark as well?

[rabbitnothopper]

Ill have to look where it's been spliced into, my guess is it's to the tach. Tomorrows adventure will tell me better as well as tracing from the coil to the fusebox.

Aside from vacum the only thing on my dizzy goes to the neg. (if I remember correctly) terminal of the coil. But none of this has been changed and everything worked fine up until the killing of the fuel pump.

Positive side has a few different lines (including the yellow - along with the remaining wiring going into the fusebox (all of which i'll check tomorrow. I put a test light on the +/- coil terminals and it lit up so the circuit is complete.

Did the same to the fuel pump with the key in the start position and the light didnt come on (so thats another issue but could that be related to why it's not getting spark as well?

hrrmmmm.....
fuel pump relay?
try bypassing it and checking it for continuity (your test light...)
get a DMM man, its the year 2012 already

on the fusebox jumper terminal 30 (battery) to terminal 87 (output)
you should hear the pump or if not you should check for voltage at the pump

you can test the relay using the battery
jumper pin 85 signal to pin 86 negative and the relay should click


your ignition coil converts battery (alt) voltage from low voltage DC
to high voltage DC on the spark plugs & wires
the signals that tell the ignition coil when to do this are in the distributor and ICM
the ICM (on cis-k-jetronic) cars is located on a heatsink in the rain tray


yes terminal 1 is - negative and terminal 15 is + positive, depending on your coil markings


damn, ignore the ICM stuff, i keep forgetting you dont have that stuff because you dont have a hall effect distributor
haha

hope this info helps you bro, let us know whats up

[blackohio]

I have a multimeter, well as of this am before my neck went banannas.

removing the harness for the fuel pump relay and checking for continuity with the light yesterday it light up, now the brand new relay could possibly be bad, i'll have to try to locate the old one and see if theres any change.

But it did run after doing the fuel pump, filter and relay. Drive it around the block a few times. Then tried moving it last weekend to re-install the rear seats and it died and wouldnt start back up.

[blackohio]

Alright so a couple of pics.

I unplugged the shadetree alarm and have just the wires to deal with. With these wires (were all connected going to the toggle) disconnected when i fire the car it does exactly the same thing. Relay clicks, dash lights flicker a bit.

The two circled leads used to run to the plastic brown Y-splitter that ran to one post of the toggle,

Also this black with green stripe connected to the yellow lead that went to the toggle switch, whats it's home?

In this photo two wires are circled. Red w/ white stripe that runs into a harness and through the firewall. When I trace that it appears to go to the fuel plate (CPR) harness on the block.

...and the red with yellow stripe going from the Fuel pump relay to where?

So in-short the wires im trying to find their original homes in this pic are
Black w/ green stripe
Red w/ white stripe
Red w/ yellow stripe



What I'm trying to figure here is where did these originally go to on the fusebox? There are a few open spade type terminals along the top I assume the can go to but which ones? Looking at the wiring diagrams im equally lost.

Next, I found a single red lead with a shielded cover unplugged. Because I have the steering wheel cover back on Im not sure exactly where it goes. I know it goes into one of the harnesses up into the steering column, but not sure which one. Where does this guy go as well.

[blackohio]

Semi interesting development. When I put +/i directly to the fuel pump it just clunks once. No hum.

This is a brand new fuel pump as well.