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    VWVortex


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    Thread: No fire

    1. Member Beakersloco's Avatar
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      04-12-2012 10:25 PM #1
      Had initial start up issues for a while that I have chalked up to simply being cold start issues that have gotten progressively worse. Normally after 5-10 mins of driving issues clears up and car stops surging and will have a loopy idle when I stop at a light. Lately past month car has several times not wanted to crank , so I drive another vehicle come home try to crank it and it will start eventually figured it was because it was cold first thing in the morning. Almost like it was not getting fire as it will turn but never act like it wants to stare. It also started to not want to idle right all of a sudden after the intiall start up at random and then cut off if I dont gas it. sometimes taking 2 or 3 tries to get it to crank back up after it idles down and shuts off. I was thinking bad ignition switch since sometimes I did not hear the fuel pump come on. Well changed ignition yesterday car would not startup. Since it seems like a fire issue checked my distributor and the side plug was loose and oil was all over the inside. I replaced with one off a passat 2.0 that worked last time I tried it 5 year ago. Something else I noticed is that the bottom shaft has a lot of play on the old one but the new one the bottom part dies not have much play in it.

      Car will turn over but not start I am able to get it to sputter and I was able to get it to crank a couple of times but it seems like its not running on all cylinders when it finally cranks and having to keep gassing it or it dies, pretty much have to use another vehicle to crank it up because it takes so long to attempt to sputter.


      Car has a new ignition switch, fuel pump primes, new distibutor off a passat 2.0 that worked 4 years ago when I got it when I was having random shutoff issue but since it did not fix the issues I put the original distributor back on.

      My next step is to use my test light and see if I am getting fire to each cylinder as soon as I can get a buddy to give me a hand... I spent like 2 hours playing with it and was thinking maybe I installed distro 180 degrees off but realize in comparing the old with the new that you cant install it wrong. I have new distro cap and and rotor but because I have already put other parts in I want to wait and look at other things first.


      Im baffled .... and thinking coil going bad and not putting out ?


      What are the symptoms of a coil going bad ?
      “All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.”" Edmund Burke -Irish orator, philosopher, & politician

    2. 04-13-2012 02:06 AM #2
      I bettcha it aint the Coil.
      I am though, concerned about the products of incomplete combustion. As in fouled plugs.

      That would not so much be the original source of your problem, I admit, but it could be a hindrance towards getting back in the groove. So to speak.

      You have a 16v. Oily Distributors seems to be a part of life with them.

      I'd like to recommend building up strength in the fundamentals; Grounds, Hot Side Cable from Alt to Battery and Starter, Fuel Filter, (Air Filter for that mater), How long has the gas been sitting in the Tank...

      That also goes to Double and Triple Checking some stupid stuff you would expect to take for granted; Timing, timing, timing. Spark Plugs, Fuel delivery and Spray pattern, Amount of Voltage Delivered to the Pump (oh so very far away from the source of Power...), Bananas in the tailpipe... 8])

      You can do eeeeet...

    3. Member Beakersloco's Avatar
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      04-13-2012 05:20 AM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by TBerk View Post
      I bettcha it aint the Coil.
      I am though, concerned about the products of incomplete combustion. As in fouled plugs.

      That would not so much be the original source of your problem, I admit, but it could be a hindrance towards getting back in the groove. So to speak.

      You have a 16v. Oily Distributors seems to be a part of life with them.

      I'd like to recommend building up strength in the fundamentals; Grounds, Hot Side Cable from Alt to Battery and Starter, Fuel Filter, (Air Filter for that mater), How long has the gas been sitting in the Tank...

      That also goes to Double and Triple Checking some stupid stuff you would expect to take for granted; Timing, timing, timing. Spark Plugs, Fuel delivery and Spray pattern, Amount of Voltage Delivered to the Pump (oh so very far away from the source of Power...), Bananas in the tailpipe... 8])

      You can do eeeeet...
      I have been driving the car at least once a week so the gas is not old and fresh gas is put in about every 2-4 weeks depending on how often I drive it which normally is 2- 3 days a week. I just had a clutch put in 3 weeks ago so the car has pretty much been driven 4-6 days a week
      and the start up has been a pain each morning but evenually it will fire up. This week there have been 2 occasions where I wanted to drive the car but it would not crank up and killed the battery. The problem has been getting progressively worse over the past few months and like I said I chalked it up to the cold and possibly a faulty ignition switch since I did not always hear the fuel pump start up. Intank pump replaced 5 years ago undercar Fuel Pump was replaced 2 years ago(got real noisey) and there was a marked reduction in issues at that time. Once cranked and after driving for 5-10 mins car would pretty much run with no issues for rest of day other then an occasional not wanna idle at light shutoff but will crank back up.

      Now I have replaced the distributor before and was able to put it into the same position as the old oily one several years ago and car ran with no issues cranking the car but since it did not fix my problem at the time I took it off a week later. So this has me scratching my head to why when it does run it acts like its not running on all cylinders. I gotta to come up with a new plan of attack as i was sure that the oily distributor was the issue when I discovered it. If its not the coil then what about a sensor thats going bad ?

      Hot side cable from battery to starter to alternator have been replaced already. Grounds are on my list of things to do.

      I have new plugs, rotor/distributor cap that I have been waiting to install because I want to get new wires and do them all at the same time. I may put in an old set that changed just because that I held onto to see if "fouled plugs is the issue and if it cranks then put the new plugs in .
      Last edited by Beakersloco; 04-13-2012 at 05:25 AM.
      “All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.”" Edmund Burke -Irish orator, philosopher, & politician

    4. Member scirocconaut's Avatar
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      04-14-2012 01:46 AM #4
      Sounds like a coil , on the 8v I think the intake manifold makes a nice insulator for heat build up

      My old 3a/jh had a bad coil and everything like you described happened

      Started out as hard starting, leaked fluid from coil(I thought it was oil at first)
      Then car started misfiring fouled plugs, even heated up the exhaust, misfired at random times while driving and shutting down with full power , crank crank crank, nothing lol

      You can buy a coil, and return it if it doesn't fix the problem, remember to say you didn't install it lol because there is no exchange for used electrical items anywhere

      If you have weak spark you will get fouled plugs and a coil can make you have weak spark, make sure the ground from the coil to the valve cover is good too

    5. Member scirocconaut's Avatar
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      04-14-2012 01:48 AM #5
      Oh yeah change your fuel filter too, I thought I had a pump die on me a month ago, it was a plugged filter...

    6. 04-14-2012 02:04 AM #6
      There is a test in the Bentley for the Coil. (Chu gots one, right?)

      Mr. 'Naut could very well be right...

    7. Member Beakersloco's Avatar
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      07-27-2012 01:31 PM #7
      Well here is an update .. car has been in shop since june and told guy to take his time with it and ...

      Well contacted shop and they report that I have fuel but no spark because the distributor is getting intermitant signal. And they recommend replacing the engine harness. So if anyone has or knows or a 16v that is being scrapped let me know as I may just try to buy a car just to get the parts.

      So Im looking to by an engine bay harness
      “All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.”" Edmund Burke -Irish orator, philosopher, & politician

    8. 07-27-2012 07:45 PM #8
      So, it sounds like a Hall Sensor problem, related to and overlapping might be the harness, but perhaps not a full harness is required.

    9. Member crazyaboutrocs's Avatar
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      07-27-2012 09:33 PM #9
      I agree with T Berk. The hall sender is something that goes bad, far more often than coils and such. Check the wires on the hall sender too-they are small and this could easily be your problem.

    10. Member Beakersloco's Avatar
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      07-29-2012 01:33 AM #10
      Its a brand new distributor, because the old one had oil in it.
      “All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.”" Edmund Burke -Irish orator, philosopher, & politician

    11. Member crazyaboutrocs's Avatar
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      07-29-2012 08:50 AM #11
      I'm not saying it's the distributor, but even brand new parts are known to fail right out of the box.
      Just keep an open mind that it's a possibility, because if you go with the thinking of it being anything but the dist. and it is bad, you are in for some

    12. Member Beakersloco's Avatar
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      11-19-2012 10:12 AM #12
      Alright just got car back from shop after it has sat for 5 months(long story but ultimately they did nothing but at least I was not charged). Did a little troubleshooting this past weekend.

      I was able to get car cranked (battery wont hold a charge at all )but once cranked it did not sound right but after about 15 mins it did level out and run but it had no power at all if I tried to drive it. It was hit of miss when I went to crank it up it , may crakwould be hit or miss and it might take after 15-20 mins to get it re-cranked or it might fire back up and hesitate and stumble then finally catch.

      Yesterday a had a friends mechanic that pretty much only works predominately works only on hondas take a look at it and we were able to determine that its getting fire using a test light and that since it would fire right up and die if he used starting fluid that its got to be a fueling issue and he also suspects that it may be off a tooth or 2 with the timing. So in a week going to carry it to a VW shop thats an hour away that a relative who used to be into old school air cooled swears by so hopefully I should have the car back and running before christmas.
      “All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.”" Edmund Burke -Irish orator, philosopher, & politician

    13. 11-19-2012 01:35 PM #13
      It's good to see you back.

      I want to avoid beating the same dead horse, (when actually we want the horse up and around and trotting...)


      Buuuuut, do you have one of these?:

      http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Volkswagen-C...rback-/1139796

      I point out via eBay but there many other sources for the Bentley Repair manual.

      now, granted, lots of folks, when presented w/ "You Do have a Bentley, Right?' question get all bentley'd out of shape but it's a valid tool to help you diagnose and fix your own car- And I say this even if you take it to a shop to have the work done.

      There are some other good books out there, some not so good, and if you cant get a Bentley, at least get a Haynes and avoid the Chilton.

      That said, lets see what else comes from your reactivating your semi-dormant thread...

    14. Member Beakersloco's Avatar
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      11-19-2012 03:31 PM #14
      Yes I do have it access to one.
      “All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.”" Edmund Burke -Irish orator, philosopher, & politician

    15. 11-19-2012 06:48 PM #15
      OK, I was reviewing the threads from the beginning and I think I understand you when you say "It wont crank..." to mean it will turn over but not start/catch, keep going on it's own. (right?)

      And, i see, recently you had a test light verify you were getting some kind of spark to the plugs but have you pulled one, grounded it to the block and cranked the motor over to verify the color and condition of the spark itself?

      Thirdly, as to Fuel delivery; I'd want to verify flow amount over time; it's easy enough to pull the main coil wire (to prevent sparks, natch) and by pulling the injectors from the head and inserting each one into one of four individual containers (beer bottles sometimes) and then running the Fuel Pump manually (a nifty jumper around the Fuel Pump Relay, w/ inline FUSE! can be made for cheap and everybody should have one)- wait a min while I catch my breadth...

      By running the fuel system like this, for a set time and measuring what you get (and spying the [hopefully] conical jet patterns) you can verify the pumps, lines, filters, and injectors aren't part of the problem.

      OK, I've run on my sentences a bit but we've been talking 'Is it Spark?' or 'Is it Fuel?'

      lets find out...

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