Looking to swap an RR 20v turbo into an '87 4000cs. Possible? Logical?

[Joester1]

Hey everyone, I've had my account here for a while, but I'm usually active on TDIclub because my current car is a golf TDI.

Anyways, my friend has for sale his 1987 Audi 4000cs for sale with a turbo 10v engine in it from an Audi 200. Its cheap, is in decent condition, and I'm looking at picking it up, and possibly swapping a 20v turbo engine into it because I want more power, and I also want to do an engine swap.

I'm just looking for advice on whether this is a plausible or even logical swap to do.

A few things I'm curious about, or need to verify:

1. I've been looking at pictures and it seems as though the 4000cs bell housing will very easily bolt up to a 20v turbo engine. Is this correct?

2. How much power can you put through a 4000cs drivetrain before it breaks? I'll be keeping my Golf around, so if It breaks its not a big deal at all, but I dont want to be snapping things constantly. I want the 4000 to be a daily driver, but still, I will always have my golf, so it doesn't have to be bullet proof, just pretty reliable.

3. Is there any good place to learn about the 10 and 20v engines? I don't know too much about them, and I would like to learn more about them and how to reliably modify them.

3a. How much boost pressure does a stock 20v run?

3b. How much boost can the stock turbo run?

3c. How much boost can the stock engine handle?

3d. If I were to go balls to the wall with this engine, where is a reputable vendor of aftermarket parts for this thing?



4. One of the main reasons I want to do a swap, and not just buy a car with a 20v already in it is for the experience. I've never done an engine swap before, but I'm very confident in my mechanical abilities. I've been around engines for a while, have done pretty big jobs like taking the head off of my TDI, and loads of other stuff. I'm trying to start out with a pretty easy swap. Is this a good project for a beginner?

Thank you very much for any insight and advice.

Hopefully someone here has knowledge of both the 4000cs and the 20v engine will chime in for me.

[Rogviler]

You'll find that this is the predominant small-chassis swap on Motorgeek, although lately it seems the 4.2 V8 is becoming wildly popular.

There are a lot of good build threads, such as:

http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13390

http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32078

Just to take a couple from the first page of search results.

In short, yes it will bolt up to the transmission just fine. I don't know about horsepower/torque numbers, but I have yet to hear of a major catastrophe with putting big power through the 4kq drivetrain. If you browse enough threads on Motorgeek you'll probably learn all you need to know as far as swapping. A good site to keep handy for technical stuff is this:

http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/

(Click "Diagnostics" for a menu of topics.)

I've seen a lot of cool 20vt setups build from 034 Motorsport parts. I'm sure there are others out there, but that seems to be the most popular.

Since you're swapping into a car that already has a turbo setup, it might be easier than if you were starting with a stock car. The 20vt is a little different than the 10vt, but I can't think of anything that would be a deal breaker for someone doing their first swap if you have any kind of mechanical ability. If you look at the first link I posted there's a lot of detail shots to compare to.

I admit I've never messed around with the 20vt, so hopefully someone who has will chime in to fill in the blanks, but that should get you started.

-Rog

[Joester1]

awesome, thanks. I had never heard of motorgeek before but it seems to be filled with info. I'll browse it constantly in my free time, for sure. Finding the right resources is really what I need. And that helps a whole lot.

Oh, and heres the 4000cs that I would be buying. Awesome, right? Check out those Borbets. The current owner actually bent the 15" Borbets trying to drift in the rain one time , but the new ones are 16"!

[Rogviler]

That is a nice looking car! White is the best because it always looks good, even when it's dirty...

Motorgeek is a great place for the high-performance stuff. Just don't ask any basic questions or you could possibly be shot. For that I'd definitely stick around here or on AudiWorld where it's a lot quieter. My 4kqt project is on AW now because it's slow going and don't have a $10,000 set of tools and I'm just having fun with it.

Definitely post whatever you decide to do with it (hint: AW could use another good project car *wink wink*). Got any shots of the engine setup it has now?

-Rog

[Joester1]

Yeah here are a few more pictures

car before swap



lockers



the one year only red/white leather interior



engine out



donor 10v



new engine in







CIS. Don't know how I feel about it, I've been getting mixed reviews.



fuel cell



The car belongs to my friend Ron. He rallies his GTI, and you might know him as Bill Caswell's co-driver for WRC mexico and Pikes Peak climb last year.

[Joester1]

That is a nice looking car! White is the best because it always looks good, even when it's dirty...

Agreed. My Golf is white and i LOVE it!

Motorgeek is a great place for the high-performance stuff. Just don't ask any basic questions or you could possibly be shot.

Definitely post whatever you decide to do with it (hint: AW could use another good project car *wink wink*). Got any shots of the engine setup it has now?

yeah, everyone at motorgeek seems to know exactly what they are doing, lol.

and I will update. It will be a few months before I can actually get the money to buy the car (going on a mechanical engineering 7 month co-op). I'm super excited about it, and I'm going to do it right. If I end up actually doing a 20vt swap, I will definitely be disassembling the engine, checking stuff, I'm just trying to plan things out right now.

[derracuda]

1. I've been looking at pictures and it seems as though the 4000cs bell housing will very easily bolt up to a 20v turbo engine. Is this correct?

2. How much power can you put through a 4000cs drivetrain before it breaks? I'll be keeping my Golf around, so if It breaks its not a big deal at all, but I dont want to be snapping things constantly. I want the 4000 to be a daily driver, but still, I will always have my golf, so it doesn't have to be bullet proof, just pretty reliable.

3. Is there any good place to learn about the 10 and 20v engines? I don't know too much about them, and I would like to learn more about them and how to reliably modify them.

3a. How much boost pressure does a stock 20v run?

3b. How much boost can the stock turbo run?

3c. How much boost can the stock engine handle?

3d. If I were to go balls to the wall with this engine, where is a reputable vendor of aftermarket parts for this thing?



4. One of the main reasons I want to do a swap, and not just buy a car with a 20v already in it is for the experience. I've never done an engine swap before, but I'm very confident in my mechanical abilities. I've been around engines for a while, have done pretty big jobs like taking the head off of my TDI, and loads of other stuff. I'm trying to start out with a pretty easy swap. Is this a good project for a beginner?



__________________________________________________ ____________

1- yes, the bellhousing bolt pattern is identical 10v vs. 20v.

2- very durable, but it all depends on how you treat it. Lots of abuse = more chances to break something. They do put up with 4 times the stock power output provided you don't drive it like a rental.

3 - I'm not aware of a 20v go to place. It's taken a long time of grazing to pick up the bit of knowledge I have.

3a - 12psi

3b - 24ish peak, but it will taper after say 4k rpms up to about 18-19 at redline.

3c - it's not so much boost as volume. you can run the k24 maxed out on the stock engine and never break it from the boost level. Once you put a larger turbo on there, the volume increases, as does fuel, and therefore power produced. It's become known that stock rods will put up with about 350ish whp (that's a safe zone), and pistons, on a car that's properly tuned, 600whp (race fuel of course), and the cranks are virtually bulletproof. If a crank breaks, it's a fluke, or you're trying to do something absolutely nuts and really shouldn't be disappointed that it broke . There's 1000+whp 5cyl's out there with stock cranks.

3d - Something cool about the 5cyl is that it shares a lot of stuff with the 16v, so you can use the same rods, valves, valve springs, retainers (if going titanium). You can get custom cams from Cat cams ($$$ though). www.efiexpress.com can help you with quite a bit too.

4 - any competent wrench can complete the task, it's a matter of will to actually finish the job, and likely a bit of a thick wallet because "while you're in there" runs a few grand so you have peace of mind when installing a 21 year old turbo engine in a nearly 30 year old quattro.

All in all, I love my quattros, and have been doing conversions for some customers, but you have to love the cars in the first place, or else you're likely to hit a wall while trying to complete the conversion and then it takes a real Audi lover to get it done, I hope you're that guy, because it's pretty satisfying to drive around in one that's put together right.

best of luck to you