Looking to swap an RR 20v turbo into an '87 4000cs. Possible? Logical?

[Joester1]

Hey everyone, I've had my account here for a while, but I'm usually active on TDIclub because my current car is a golf TDI.

Anyways, my friend has for sale his 1987 Audi 4000cs for sale with a turbo 10v engine in it from an Audi 200. Its cheap, is in decent condition, and I'm looking at picking it up, and possibly swapping a 20v turbo engine into it because I want more power, and I also want to do an engine swap.

I'm just looking for advice on whether this is a plausible or even logical swap to do.

A few things I'm curious about, or need to verify:

1. I've been looking at pictures and it seems as though the 4000cs bell housing will very easily bolt up to a 20v turbo engine. Is this correct?

2. How much power can you put through a 4000cs drivetrain before it breaks? I'll be keeping my Golf around, so if It breaks its not a big deal at all, but I dont want to be snapping things constantly. I want the 4000 to be a daily driver, but still, I will always have my golf, so it doesn't have to be bullet proof, just pretty reliable.

3. Is there any good place to learn about the 10 and 20v engines? I don't know too much about them, and I would like to learn more about them and how to reliably modify them.

3a. How much boost pressure does a stock 20v run?

3b. How much boost can the stock turbo run?

3c. How much boost can the stock engine handle?

3d. If I were to go balls to the wall with this engine, where is a reputable vendor of aftermarket parts for this thing?



4. One of the main reasons I want to do a swap, and not just buy a car with a 20v already in it is for the experience. I've never done an engine swap before, but I'm very confident in my mechanical abilities. I've been around engines for a while, have done pretty big jobs like taking the head off of my TDI, and loads of other stuff. I'm trying to start out with a pretty easy swap. Is this a good project for a beginner?

Thank you very much for any insight and advice.

Hopefully someone here has knowledge of both the 4000cs and the 20v engine will chime in for me.

[Rogviler]

You'll find that this is the predominant small-chassis swap on Motorgeek, although lately it seems the 4.2 V8 is becoming wildly popular.

There are a lot of good build threads, such as:

http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13390

http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32078

Just to take a couple from the first page of search results.

In short, yes it will bolt up to the transmission just fine. I don't know about horsepower/torque numbers, but I have yet to hear of a major catastrophe with putting big power through the 4kq drivetrain. If you browse enough threads on Motorgeek you'll probably learn all you need to know as far as swapping. A good site to keep handy for technical stuff is this:

http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/

(Click "Diagnostics" for a menu of topics.)

I've seen a lot of cool 20vt setups build from 034 Motorsport parts. I'm sure there are others out there, but that seems to be the most popular.

Since you're swapping into a car that already has a turbo setup, it might be easier than if you were starting with a stock car. The 20vt is a little different than the 10vt, but I can't think of anything that would be a deal breaker for someone doing their first swap if you have any kind of mechanical ability. If you look at the first link I posted there's a lot of detail shots to compare to.

I admit I've never messed around with the 20vt, so hopefully someone who has will chime in to fill in the blanks, but that should get you started.

-Rog

[Joester1]

awesome, thanks. I had never heard of motorgeek before but it seems to be filled with info. I'll browse it constantly in my free time, for sure. Finding the right resources is really what I need. And that helps a whole lot.

Oh, and heres the 4000cs that I would be buying. Awesome, right? Check out those Borbets. The current owner actually bent the 15" Borbets trying to drift in the rain one time , but the new ones are 16"!

[Rogviler]

That is a nice looking car! White is the best because it always looks good, even when it's dirty...

Motorgeek is a great place for the high-performance stuff. Just don't ask any basic questions or you could possibly be shot. For that I'd definitely stick around here or on AudiWorld where it's a lot quieter. My 4kqt project is on AW now because it's slow going and don't have a $10,000 set of tools and I'm just having fun with it.

Definitely post whatever you decide to do with it (hint: AW could use another good project car *wink wink*). Got any shots of the engine setup it has now?

-Rog

[Joester1]

Yeah here are a few more pictures

car before swap



lockers



the one year only red/white leather interior



engine out



donor 10v



new engine in







CIS. Don't know how I feel about it, I've been getting mixed reviews.



fuel cell



The car belongs to my friend Ron. He rallies his GTI, and you might know him as Bill Caswell's co-driver for WRC mexico and Pikes Peak climb last year.

[Joester1]

That is a nice looking car! White is the best because it always looks good, even when it's dirty...

Agreed. My Golf is white and i LOVE it!

Motorgeek is a great place for the high-performance stuff. Just don't ask any basic questions or you could possibly be shot.

Definitely post whatever you decide to do with it (hint: AW could use another good project car *wink wink*). Got any shots of the engine setup it has now?

yeah, everyone at motorgeek seems to know exactly what they are doing, lol.

and I will update. It will be a few months before I can actually get the money to buy the car (going on a mechanical engineering 7 month co-op). I'm super excited about it, and I'm going to do it right. If I end up actually doing a 20vt swap, I will definitely be disassembling the engine, checking stuff, I'm just trying to plan things out right now.

[derracuda]

1. I've been looking at pictures and it seems as though the 4000cs bell housing will very easily bolt up to a 20v turbo engine. Is this correct?

2. How much power can you put through a 4000cs drivetrain before it breaks? I'll be keeping my Golf around, so if It breaks its not a big deal at all, but I dont want to be snapping things constantly. I want the 4000 to be a daily driver, but still, I will always have my golf, so it doesn't have to be bullet proof, just pretty reliable.

3. Is there any good place to learn about the 10 and 20v engines? I don't know too much about them, and I would like to learn more about them and how to reliably modify them.

3a. How much boost pressure does a stock 20v run?

3b. How much boost can the stock turbo run?

3c. How much boost can the stock engine handle?

3d. If I were to go balls to the wall with this engine, where is a reputable vendor of aftermarket parts for this thing?



4. One of the main reasons I want to do a swap, and not just buy a car with a 20v already in it is for the experience. I've never done an engine swap before, but I'm very confident in my mechanical abilities. I've been around engines for a while, have done pretty big jobs like taking the head off of my TDI, and loads of other stuff. I'm trying to start out with a pretty easy swap. Is this a good project for a beginner?



__________________________________________________ ____________

1- yes, the bellhousing bolt pattern is identical 10v vs. 20v.

2- very durable, but it all depends on how you treat it. Lots of abuse = more chances to break something. They do put up with 4 times the stock power output provided you don't drive it like a rental.

3 - I'm not aware of a 20v go to place. It's taken a long time of grazing to pick up the bit of knowledge I have.

3a - 12psi

3b - 24ish peak, but it will taper after say 4k rpms up to about 18-19 at redline.

3c - it's not so much boost as volume. you can run the k24 maxed out on the stock engine and never break it from the boost level. Once you put a larger turbo on there, the volume increases, as does fuel, and therefore power produced. It's become known that stock rods will put up with about 350ish whp (that's a safe zone), and pistons, on a car that's properly tuned, 600whp (race fuel of course), and the cranks are virtually bulletproof. If a crank breaks, it's a fluke, or you're trying to do something absolutely nuts and really shouldn't be disappointed that it broke . There's 1000+whp 5cyl's out there with stock cranks.

3d - Something cool about the 5cyl is that it shares a lot of stuff with the 16v, so you can use the same rods, valves, valve springs, retainers (if going titanium). You can get custom cams from Cat cams ($$$ though). www.efiexpress.com can help you with quite a bit too.

4 - any competent wrench can complete the task, it's a matter of will to actually finish the job, and likely a bit of a thick wallet because "while you're in there" runs a few grand so you have peace of mind when installing a 21 year old turbo engine in a nearly 30 year old quattro.

All in all, I love my quattros, and have been doing conversions for some customers, but you have to love the cars in the first place, or else you're likely to hit a wall while trying to complete the conversion and then it takes a real Audi lover to get it done, I hope you're that guy, because it's pretty satisfying to drive around in one that's put together right.

best of luck to you

[Joester1]

best of luck to you

hey, thanks. You're full of great info.

I'm on page 42/82 on your post on motorgeek, and I've practically doubled my knowledge on the subject already.

Turns out Ron's friend Nick (Rallyfreak202 http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36090) has actually done a 20vt -> 4k swap, so I have him as a knowledge base as well. Ron himself has done quite a few VAG engine swaps as well, I believe, so I definitely have the resources to do this thing.

only another 2 months before I can start affording stuff! So anxious.

[Corrado1900T]

How much HP do you really want would be the first question to ask yourself. 034 Motorsports can provide you with a wealth of goodies to bolt on to your 10 valver to make it faster. I realistically would only go with the 20V 5 cylinder if you have extremely deep pockets as Derracuda stated. The 10 valves are relatively plentiful and if you are looking to get over 400 hp, although the 10v's have done much more than 550, that would be the only reason to go with a 20V. The transmission on the 4000's is a real concern as some people wouldn't put more than 250 HP thru them although if you treat them right I have seen a lot more go thru them.

Personally I woulld get the 034 header and downpipe, different turbo as well as their standalone engine management which can make a huge difference even on a bone stock 10V Turbo. Good luck with the build and keep us informed.

[derracuda]

If you're tight on the budget and are somewhat electronically savvy, VEMS engine management cost about half, and is every bit as capable (plus more user friendly and flexible IMO).

The 10vt and 20vt drive very differently. the 10v has a lot of instant punch, but runs out of breath quickly. the 20vt just loves rpms (not with the stock 3b cams though).

I can't honestly say I would consider going back to the 10vt, even with the additional investment in building the engine. It's nicer to work on with the manifolds on opposite sides of the head and has so many other benefits to the design.

[Joester1]

How much HP do you really want would be the first question to ask yourself. 034 Motorsports can provide you with a wealth of goodies to bolt on to your 10 valver to make it faster. I realistically would only go with the 20V 5 cylinder if you have extremely deep pockets as Derracuda stated. The 10 valves are relatively plentiful and if you are looking to get over 400 hp, although the 10v's have done much more than 550, that would be the only reason to go with a 20V. The transmission on the 4000's is a real concern as some people wouldn't put more than 250 HP thru them although if you treat them right I have seen a lot more go thru them.

Personally I woulld get the 034 header and downpipe, different turbo as well as their standalone engine management which can make a huge difference even on a bone stock 10V Turbo. Good luck with the build and keep us informed.

I would enjoy somewhere around 350hp, and Part of the reason I want to do a swap is just because of doing the swap itself. Its an experience that I want to have.

If you're tight on the budget and are somewhat electronically savvy, VEMS engine management cost about half, and is every bit as capable (plus more user friendly and flexible IMO).

The 10vt and 20vt drive very differently. the 10v has a lot of instant punch, but runs out of breath quickly. the 20vt just loves rpms (not with the stock 3b cams though).

I can't honestly say I would consider going back to the 10vt, even with the additional investment in building the engine. It's nicer to work on with the manifolds on opposite sides of the head and has so many other benefits to the design.

I'm not sure how tight on the budget I will be. After I buy the car, I will probably have about $7k to spend, which will get me pretty far into 20vt territory i believe. I do understand that costs add up REALLY quickly. I can also sell the rare interior and the 10v motor thats in it for a little cash.

I would want to maybe get some aftermarket rods, just while im in there, in case i do decide to go big with it, cams, and a turbo. obviously theres like $2k worth of just little things like lifters, those titanium valve spring retainers, intercooling, plumbing etc.

Ill probably start off with just the swap, get the near stock 20v running well, then pull it back out and let the modding commence as I get money.


I do have a MIG and a TIG and I pride myself on my fabrication skills, so theres no problem there.

[Joester1]

Also I just got done going through all 82 pages and 2000+ posts on derek's thread on motorgeek. Crazy amount of info to comprehend, and I'll probably read it again at some point.


What drivetrain is in your 4k derek? Audi 90 or something like that? Sorry, it was like 75 pages back in that thread!

what was the advantage to that drivetrain? Just the ratios, or is it known to hold more power?

thanks.

[derracuda]

Sounds like you've got a good position to be in. $7k will get you very far into 20vt territory. You don't have to go crazy, but it is awfully nice to have the piece of mind that you aren't trying to make your power on 20year old valves or rods.

The OEM valves are known for falling off and essentially ruining the engine, so I heartily recommend replacing basics, valves, guides, seals, etc. Start with a fresh head. Same with the rods. There have been a few freak occurances of the stock rods breaking and putting a hole in the side of the block.

If the bores are good and straight (not out of round), use the stock pistons, if they look good and not trashed from detonation, clean em' up and have them coated by swaintech, it's about $260 all said and done.

You don't need a mega port job on the head for 350hp, or 400, or 500 even. although if you are replacing the valves, get the necked down stems intakes.

[derracuda]

My drivetrain is a mishmash, to achieve different things, 5lug swap, later 2piece struts which are nicer to work with (the one piecers are HEAVY), and make the 6spd transmission fit. The front axles are from a fwd 5spd B4 90q, the rear diff is from a 90' 90q, which is ultimately the same as the mid 85+ diffs of the 4000.

The transmission is a stock B5 S4 6spd that I picked up cheap and threw in to get the install completed. I am working on rebuilding my TDI(longer gearing for hwy speeds) spec 6spd to put in there this summer.

[Joester1]

Sounds like you've got a good position to be in. $7k will get you very far into 20vt territory. You don't have to go crazy, but it is awfully nice to have the piece of mind that you aren't trying to make your power on 20year old valves or rods.

The OEM valves are known for falling off and essentially ruining the engine, so I heartily recommend replacing basics, valves, guides, seals, etc. Start with a fresh head. Same with the rods. There have been a few freak occurances of the stock rods breaking and putting a hole in the side of the block.

If the bores are good and straight (not out of round), use the stock pistons, if they look good and not trashed from detonation, clean em' up and have them coated by swaintech, it's about $260 all said and done.

You don't need a mega port job on the head for 350hp, or 400, or 500 even. although if you are replacing the valves, get the necked down stems intakes.

I was looking at these rods http://www.034motorsport.com/engine-...-i5-p-459.html

what about the lifters? Those things are stupid expensive, but if I have to replace them I will.

Are the cat cams worth the price or is that $1k best spent somewhere else?

What about a turbo? Looks like 034 has a GT28RS (good for 350hp according to them) or the GT2871RS (good for 400+hp) kit for not too bad of a price. I wonder how many used good condition turbos there are for a good price...

I guess from here on out, Its just research and a whole lot of anxiety. I cant even concentrate on the mechanics of materials assignment I should be doing right now, I just want to learn about this engine

[Corrado1900T]

I was looking at these rods http://www.034motorsport.com/engine-...-i5-p-459.html

what about the lifters? Those things are stupid expensive, but if I have to replace them I will.

Are the cat cams worth the price or is that $1k best spent somewhere else?

What about a turbo? Looks like 034 has a GT28RS (good for 350hp according to them) or the GT2871RS (good for 400+hp) kit for not too bad of a price. I wonder how many used good condition turbos there are for a good price...

I guess from here on out, Its just research and a whole lot of anxiety. I cant even concentrate on the mechanics of materials assignment I should be doing right now, I just want to learn about this engine

Check thru the MK4 forums or Forced induction classifieds as I saw a lot of GT 28RS and 2871R's the last time I was there. A good used unit shouldn't cost too much over $500 and I have 034's 1.8T kit with the GT2871R on my GTI and it is really close to 400 crank hp, 289 wheel shutting off at 5200 due to a misfire, coil wiring. I still think that you might be better off with the 10v engine. You would have more money all around to throw at various areas of the project. A 400 hp streetable 4KQ is what I would try, In fact you are giving me bad ideas already and have considerably thinned my wallet out.

[derracuda]

you can't compare the 1.8t to the 10vt, they are different animals. reaching 400hp on a 10vt without race gas or meth injection is pretty much impossible due to the poor combustion chamber design.

The 28RS and 2871RS are going to leave you wishing you stepped up a notch for the $$ spent on the turbo. a 3071 or 3076 are going to get you good spool reaction and a lot more bang for your buck.

[Corrado1900T]

you can't compare the 1.8t to the 10vt, they are different animals. reaching 400hp on a 10vt without race gas or meth injection is pretty much impossible due to the poor combustion chamber design.

The 28RS and 2871RS are going to leave you wishing you stepped up a notch for the $$ spent on the turbo. a 3071 or 3076 are going to get you good spool reaction and a lot more bang for your buck.

True but 2871R's seem to be plentiful. The comparo on the 1.8 T was just to demonstrate that the turbo does flow enough for the 400 hp required, nothing more, sorry if I confused anyone. The combustion design may be poor but the sport quattro's 10 valve put out over 300 and it wasn't maxed out. I'm sure with a little P&P on the head, 034 turbo cam and water meth, which everyone seems to be running these days, should be enough to reach the desired level of power. He might want to spend some of the $7K on the transmission parts that tend to break as well as suspension components to hold the power to the road. The tubular and billet aluminum lower control arms will fit that bill quite nicely but you could almost sink over $2K into just a good suspension set up as I think that he mentioned the car already had coil overs. Just a thought.

[vagrant_mugen]

you want 200 hp, do the 10vT swap, but dont tryin build a 10v to take 400hp its gonna be a waste of money and time.

if u want over 200hp, the 20vT is prolly ur best bet. the stock motor will handle 350 safely, which is plenty in these cars, believe me. drop in a 3B or even a 7A w/ 3B manifolds and you'll have a good stout 300hp setup w/ choice of turbo(gt28's are a waste of money to most people) and ur gonna want to get a better EFI setup, but a stock 3B swap w/ harness/ecu will give you just watchur after. dont underestimate the 20yr old k26's, they work pretty good and puff close to 300hp.... course a t3/t04 is cheap and nice upgrade, u'll need a manifold but for the price of a gt28 u can get a t3/04 and manifold.

so for 200 and under, 10vT cost about $150-250
an for 200 and up, 20vT's prolly around $350-400

try out 300hp on a stock engine b4 you go buyin rods and pistons and cams, you'll be pleasentely surprised with a stock motor and extra bit of boost, and so will your wallet.

[Corrado1900T]

The only problem I se with the 20V T's is that an engine swap without wiring harness and computer run anywhere from $2000-3000. I have never seen a cheap 20V swap. 10V's on the other hand are a dime a dozen and there usually are several at any given junkyard. Parts are cheaper on the 10V's when they break and 034 has a host of stuff for doing a decent 10V turbo on the cheap.

True that the 20V turbo swap will net you more HP in stock form but bang for the buck my dollars stay with a 10V so I can throw the rest at engine management and suspension.

[Joester1]

I want it to be a daddy's mustang/SRT-4 killer. Its a really light car, so 300 or 350hp will do the trick, but I have the time and money to do awesome things with it so why not? Half the reason i'm doing the 20v swap is simply for having the experience of putting a different motor into the car. its something I want to do that I've never done before.

So heres my plan

First step is to get the car. I start my engineering co-op next monday, so the cash is going to start flowing very soon.

Second, get the engine. I saw a 20vt engine, turbo and harness on here for something rediculous like $1100. Im counting on spending about $2500 for it though because $1100 seems rediculous. I may have misread the ad or something.... i MUST have. If not, that deal is gone by now.

Thirdly, I do the swap with a bone stock AAN, and get it running

Fourth, I sell my supermoto and buy a CBR600rr

Fifth, I take the engine back out of the "4kcs20vt", and make it rediculous.

unless I find something different, I think I want the 'GT3071' kit from 034.

Has anyone done a twin turbo on the AAN? I could find any documented cases of that. There might not even be room in there.

I was also eyin' up a big brake kit, looks like the common thing to do is porsche calipers with an adapter bracket?



I'll be picking up the 4000 in just a month or so. I'm super excited to get to takin' things apart and learning stuff.

(all plans and dates subject to change )