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    Thread: did Chris Bangle get the last laugh?

    1. Member
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      04-16-2012 11:19 PM #71
      I count 7 different line directions just in that view. There are probably a couple more if we look down from the top. Wow, that is certainly cohesive... To something I guess. If you draw enough lines they will eventually line up with something. This is the same reason a lot of people think Hyundai designs are also busy.

    2. Member CSFiend's Avatar
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      04-16-2012 11:20 PM #72
      come on, guys. everyone knows that subtlety including the characters 'Z4' in the design was brilliant.

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      04-16-2012 11:26 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by thetopdog View Post
      That looks like a bunch of lines that run alongside and intersect with each other with no rhyme or reason
      agreed, those z4s look terrible

    4. 04-16-2012 11:38 PM #74
      I doubt he was fiered as the 7 series did record numbers even though TCL hated it.

      I have to admit I didnt like the 7 rear end or the dame edna 5 series headlights when they debuted.

      Now I miss them as the the 7 and 5 are both el-blando.

      Now BMW is trying to bank on the 6 series sedan for those who want something stylish.

      I will own a V10 M5 someday

    5. Member Horror Business's Avatar
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      04-16-2012 11:39 PM #75
      I agree with whoever said it earlier, with Bangle's designs some win and some lose. I don't even think the ones that lose are entirely bad designs, they just contain certain elements that are undesirable.

      The best thing I have learned about BMW design in my own perception is that it may not always click with everyone or myself initially, but as time goes on it's design ages well and I appreciate their appearance the more I look at them.

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      04-16-2012 11:48 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by JsnVR6Corrado View Post
      I count 7 different line directions just in that view. There are probably a couple more if we look down from the top. Wow, that is certainly cohesive... To something I guess. If you draw enough lines they will eventually line up with something. This is the same reason a lot of people think Hyundai designs are also busy.
      As the illustration in the post makes perfectly clear, Anders Warming's design intent was for each line to flow across the entire car - the door line swoops down and then up thru the fender and into the front edge of the hood, the windshield rake continues into the fender, the top front fender crease flows back into the door, etc. The entire car can be drawn with a few shapes and a dozen pen-strokes. Typically, as you've said, a car is cohesive - several different shapes that fit together. The Z4 is true sculpture - it's one solid shape with creases on its surface. The only line that breaks the flow is the front door edge, which cuts across other lines.
      "Motorcycles - the cigarettes of transportation." Seth Meyers

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      04-17-2012 12:06 AM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
      As the illustration in the post makes perfectly clear, Anders Warming's design intent was for each line to flow across the entire car - the door line swoops down and then up thru the fender and into the front edge of the hood, the windshield rake continues into the fender, the top front fender crease flows back into the door, etc. The entire car can be drawn with a few shapes and a dozen pen-strokes. Typically, as you've said, a car is cohesive - several different shapes that fit together. The Z4 is true sculpture - it's one solid shape with creases on its surface. The only line that breaks the flow is the front door edge, which cuts across other lines.
      Someone did some good post rationalization with that design language. It looks like he drew a picture of a car then tried to superimpose these creases. Look how much better the newer Z4 looks when the creases are toned down or removed. If they were the basis for this "sculpture" then the design would have fallen apart and looked worse, but it looks better everywhere. If bangle of the design team would have spent more time evolving the design language maybe they would have gotten there on the first Z4 design.


      Take the tail fins off a 59 caddy and the design falls apart.

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      04-17-2012 12:18 AM #78
      Whatever you think of the outcome of his work, he is by far the most well known designer in automotive history.

      I don't know of any other car designer with name recognition like he does. Which, I think, is his own personal victory, because his work has created quite the conversation, and probably will continue long after he's gone too.

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      04-17-2012 12:20 AM #79
      Good for you to those who love all the lines on the Z4. To me it just looks busy and ugly. I rather prefer S2000 or Boxster of the same year.

      To me, this is the last great BMW design. No stupid lines, no flames, no weird butt... just clean timeless design.



      Edit: Just as someone above mentioned, 2nd gen Z4 (E89) look SO MUCH better mainly because all those weird line are gone.
      Last edited by Avus; 04-17-2012 at 12:23 AM.
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      04-17-2012 12:27 AM #80
      What's Bangle up to these days?

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      04-17-2012 12:27 AM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
      I don't know of any other car designer with name recognition like he does. Which, I think, is his own personal victory, because his work has created quite the conversation, and probably will continue long after he's gone too.
      Guigiaro, Henry Ford, Enzo Ferrari, Butzi Porsche, Harley Earl (was even used in GM ads recently) Dick Teague, Virgil Exner....

      and those are just off the top of my head. The automotive blog-forum world has talked about him a lot but he's not exactly a household name.

      the Z4 would have looked much better without the Z on the side. I always wondered what one would look like with a paintjob like a 1960 corvette:

      The good news: I gave up on being one of the cool kids!

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      04-17-2012 12:44 AM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by 2000JettaGLXVR6 View Post
      Correct, it was Joji Nagashima, who designed the E36, E90, E39 and Z3 roadster.
      Who also designed the Maserati Quattroporte which I think is the most elegant sedan made in 40 years.

      Bangle's work wasn't meant to be elegant, it was meant to be dynamic and unsettling. He takes his inspiration from Constructivist art. I don't like all of his designs but they changed the tastes of a generation and contemporary BMWs seem quite tame in comparison.
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      04-17-2012 01:25 AM #83
      Maybe i missed it already mentioned, but here's what Wiki has to say about the Z4 design(er):
      "The first-generation of BMW Z4 was designed by Danish BMW-designer Anders Warming for Silas Acosta by request. Warming's design was controversial, as were many BMW designs of the time produced under the watch of BMW chief designer Chris Bangle."

      Quote Originally Posted by 2000JettaGLXVR6 View Post
      It makes all the sense in the world. I've outlined the lines for you, they all connect.

      Thanks, you're exactly correct! We're all entitled to our own subjective opinions, and the lines are one of the reasons i bought the car, which i think works MUCH better (and will age much better, imo) in Coupe rather than Roadster form; also, the blue M pictured earlier doesn't show them well, works better in silver:



      I also love the hips / ledges produced by the Bangle-butt of the hatch.



      and i'm happy to have a car with polarizing design; at least people will have an opinion about it!
      Quote Originally Posted by TM87 View Post
      FWD Mercedes, 4cyl Mustangs, unreliable Toyotas... WTF is this world coming to?
      and my new pet peeve: the "woah" misspelling of whoa: it's W-H-O-A, people! "learn it. know it. live it." seriously. #FFS #SMH

    14. 04-17-2012 01:35 AM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by S0RRY View Post
      uhhhhhh guys, did you not see the thread is over? Flat6guy ended it with his impeccable taste and his inability to grasp the concept of subjectivity.
      Design is NOT art(the ultimate in subjectivity). And good design is not subjective, either. Bangle's BMW stuff is messy, noisy, and awkward in proportion. That is why it's ugly. It's not ugly for no "subjective" reason.

      A fork with its tines at all different angles is still a fork; but it's a ****ty fork, and therefore, ugly.

      Last edited by flat6guy; 04-17-2012 at 01:42 AM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Aperture View Post
      That door handle is horrible. I wish they would've used a flap-style integrated into the crease.
      Quote Originally Posted by mikegilbert View Post
      I would love to spin you off the road into a ditch.

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      04-17-2012 01:42 AM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by slirt View Post
      Thanks, you're exactly correct! We're all entitled to our own subjective opinions, and the lines are one of the reasons i bought the car, which i think works MUCH better (and will age much better, imo) in Coupe rather than Roadster form; also, the blue M pictured earlier doesn't show them well, works better in silver
      Interesting. I always thought the roadster's design was going to wear better. I always thought the rear of the coupe had too much visual mass sitting in between the taillights. To each his own of course, but I love the roadster. Either way, I'm a big fan of the Z4

      Quote Originally Posted by DamienR8 View Post
      in 2038 you will have the ability to think of a car, then your body will actually turn into a car, then you will die in an accident.

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      04-17-2012 02:25 AM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by Dave Zero View Post


      Interesting?, yes. Beautiful and timeless like an E-type?, I don't know.


      That is possibly my favourite design of the last decade.
      Where as the TT et al have become static and dated this still looks exceptionally fresh. The lines are taught and crisp.

      The interior is also to die for - simple, focused and uncomplicated.
      Just compare it to Mercedes, Lexus and Audi from circa 2004 and it is still fresh.

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      04-17-2012 02:32 AM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by slirt View Post
      Maybe i missed it already mentioned, but here's what Wiki has to say about the Z4 design(er):
      "The first-generation of BMW Z4 was designed by Danish BMW-designer Anders Warming for Silas Acosta by request. Warming's design was controversial, as were many BMW designs of the time produced under the watch of BMW chief designer Chris Bangle."
      about it!
      doesnt it then make it a bangle car? im sure if hes the head designer he isnt actually going and designing any of the cars. other people are paid a lot less to do that for him and he just tells them what to do.
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      Nah, understeering into a tree in a Honda like a teenage girl ruins your street cred. I'd leave the door to show how hard you are.

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      04-17-2012 10:07 AM #88
      I feel people like you like the e-type because it's hyped up by shows like Top Gear
      Quote Originally Posted by Dave Zero View Post

      Interesting?, yes. Beautiful and timeless like an E-type?, I don't know.

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      04-17-2012 10:26 AM #89
      yeah, because top gear invented e-type love. before top gear, the e-type was known as "the poor brit's cobbleshop answer to majestic detroit elegance."

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      04-17-2012 10:54 AM #90
      So can someone please link where the god of art and design made the final judgement that bangle is terrible?
      Sent from my tablet while sipping weak drinks over fancy brunch with a view

    21. 04-17-2012 11:15 AM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by metagear89 View Post
      I feel people like you like the e-type because it's hyped up by shows like Top Gear
      I love the E-Type for a multitude of reasons. Top Gear not being one of them. For instance, I hate every single overpriced, underperforming Aston Martin in the lineup. Is that good for you? Thanks.

      If it makes you feel better, you can substitute FD RX7 or C2 Corvette in my sentance.

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      04-17-2012 11:20 AM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by flat6guy View Post
      Design is NOT art(the ultimate in subjectivity).
      Ok, how does this rectify with your music analogy? Is music not art?

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      04-17-2012 12:37 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by Dave Zero View Post
      I love the E-Type for a multitude of reasons. Top Gear not being one of them. For instance, I hate every single overpriced, underperforming Aston Martin in the lineup. Is that good for you? Thanks.
      Oddly, I think the Aston Martin V8 Vantage is the only modern design that comes close to the E-types grace.
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      04-17-2012 12:54 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
      The only line that breaks the flow is the front door edge, which cuts across other lines.
      Yes, but even then it's considered...



      It's a pretty unique design, but also timeless in my opinion. I love how the fenders just blend into the side of the car, which is quite unusual. Most cars have the headlamps under the hood and don't have any flat surface to the top of the fender.


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      04-17-2012 08:21 PM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by S0RRY View Post
      Ok, how does this rectify with your music analogy? Is music not art?
      I think the question is "Is what Justin Bieber is producing music?"

      My counter-question to the thread title: Was there another, more influential car designer in the previous decade? What people think of the cars aside, for the first decade of this century I can't name a car designer that influenced the industry more. That's not to say there weren't other great designs at the time - imo, Audi had a better run last decade - but none as influential.
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      04-17-2012 08:29 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by JLJetta View Post
      The problem was not the 'heavy creases and curves' at all. The problem was every single panel had no continuity with another panel. It was as if a totally different group designed each panel seperately and not in communication. I've seen Fisher Price toys put together more cohesively.



      I mean, WTF? It is a desperate cry of impotence. Its like he wanted to do something different, but had zero ability to do something meaningful.
      This crease ties in with the rake of the windsheild.

      edit: replied before I finished reading... it's been thoroughly covered
      Last edited by BTM; 04-17-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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    27. 04-17-2012 09:02 PM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by S0RRY View Post
      Ok, how does this rectify with your music analogy? Is music not art?
      You are correct in this case. Perhaps the fork analogy is better than the music analogy.
      Quote Originally Posted by Aperture View Post
      That door handle is horrible. I wish they would've used a flap-style integrated into the crease.
      Quote Originally Posted by mikegilbert View Post
      I would love to spin you off the road into a ditch.

    28. 04-17-2012 09:05 PM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by 2000JettaGLXVR6 View Post
      I love how the fenders just blend into the side of the car, which is quite unusual.


      how's that for blending?
      Quote Originally Posted by Aperture View Post
      That door handle is horrible. I wish they would've used a flap-style integrated into the crease.
      Quote Originally Posted by mikegilbert View Post
      I would love to spin you off the road into a ditch.

    29. Member mikes96GTI's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 09:44 PM #99
      As a LONG time BMW fan, and started working for them back in 1997, I will say, Bangle ruined these cars. I can see it from the design standpoint, with the lines and intersections and curves, but its not my, and apparently a lot of other peoples cups of tea. Art appreciation is in the eye of the beholder.

      Henrik Fisker (yes, THAT Fisker) designed the Z8, not Bangle

      Bangle did not design the E39 (which in my, and a lot of other people opinions is the best BMW ever made from a design, performance, and reliability standpoint) even though he was with the company during its final development, it was penned by a Japanese named designer who escapes me and I'm too lazy to look.

      Bangle did NOT get fired, but parted ways to pursue other area's of design. Whether or not he was handed his resignation letter he "forgot to sign" will forever be anyones guess.

      Bangle DID make the ugly duckling E65 and E60. Those were his babies.

      The E90, like the others (Z4, 1er, E70, etc) all have the same design characteristics, albeit a bit more muted on the 3er since it was the bread and butter car. I will say, my E92 coupe is probably one of the best looking cars BMW has put out.

      Bangle was IMO a visionary, in his own mind, and was able to somehow sell the idea of radical design elements to a rather conservative German car company. I was never a fan, glad he is gone, and hope his understudy that took over dials it back. As far as the other manufactures using the same elements, of course. It has been the automotive way since, well, forever. Like tail fins, it will die out.



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      04-17-2012 09:45 PM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by BTM View Post
      This crease ties in with the rake of the windsheild.

      edit: replied before I finished reading... it's been thoroughly covered
      and it's still ugly

      Actually if they smoothed out that crease, the overall design would be more cohesive.

      Bangle stirred up automotive styling and that's a good thing. BMW must have felt that they were in a styling rut and needed to transform in order to attract new customers. Interestingly, the newer post-Bangle designs are much more conservative with far fewer egregious examples of flame surfacing. BMW must have felt the designs were too risky and dialed things back.
      Quote Originally Posted by rich! View Post
      i'd lock this thread but i have no clue how...

    31. 04-17-2012 09:51 PM #101
      The E65 had everybody rushing to copy it Benz which seemed to be the king of the D-class sedan even Mercedes had to steal something from it with its nearly identical column shift.

      The current LS460 has a little of the chunkiness on the sideview which resembles the E65.

      The E65 was the king of the D-class for a while now with the new return to bmw blandness, it looks like Jaguar is the stylish way to go.

    32. Member borapumpkin's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 10:39 PM #102
      you guys are giving him more credit than he deserves. his designs aren't that great. the 90's bmw's look better.

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      04-17-2012 11:02 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by borapumpkin View Post
      you guys are giving him more credit than he deserves. his designs aren't that great. the 90's bmw's look better.
      Meh, they look square and boring.

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      04-17-2012 11:24 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by KahviVW View Post
      and it's still ugly

      Actually if they smoothed out that crease, the overall design would be more cohesive.

      Bangle stirred up automotive styling and that's a good thing. BMW must have felt that they were in a styling rut and needed to transform in order to attract new customers. Interestingly, the newer post-Bangle designs are much more conservative with far fewer egregious examples of flame surfacing. BMW must have felt the designs were too risky and dialed things back.
      To each their own. I'm not totally sold on the design feature either...but the original comment being "The problem was every single panel had no continuity with another panel. It was as if a totally different group designed each panel seperately and not in communication. " was simply false analysis - that crease has a direct (and I thought obvious) connection to another portion of the car, which is why I limited my premature comment to address that on its own. I personally don't care if everyone, no one, or however many in between like the car - that's their opinion.
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
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      04-17-2012 11:40 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by borapumpkin View Post
      you guys are giving him more credit than he deserves. his designs aren't that great. the 90's bmw's look better.
      I totally agree, but it's hard to improve on great designs. It becomes a problem when consumers can't distinguish a new design from an old one (e.g. Jaguar).
      Quote Originally Posted by rich! View Post
      i'd lock this thread but i have no clue how...

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