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    Thread: Mk6 tdi motor mount options

    1. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 07:37 AM #1
      So my tdi already has 45k on the odo and Im already feeling the slop in my dogbone mount. In fact, my roommate says my motor "does a little dance" when I shut my drivers door. I am looking for a solution to replace the dogbone with somthing other than stock that wont rattle my brain with the vibration of the tdi.

      Is there some sort of solid rubber mount out there as opposed to the poly ones offered by most companies?

      Are the mk6 gti mounts any different than the tdi? Stiffer possibly?

      My moms passat had the dogbone go bad and didn't take care of it and the downpipe broke right off the turbo, so im trying to avoid a situation like that.

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      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
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    2. Geriatric Member Aonarch's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 07:57 AM #2
      Be very careful about picking mounts, I had aftermarket mounts for the GTI on my TDI and I had to remove them, too much vibration.

      Always look for the lowest durometer.
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      04-18-2012 08:57 AM #3
      Even HPA says to go with the lowest durometer mounts. I've got 60k on my TDI so far, and apart from a BFI dogbone bushing insert, I've done nothing to the mounts. The engine moves quite a bit even stock. Watch someone pull your car up and you can see the wheels moving longitudinally in the arches. The shifting feels as tight as always, and I'd notice since I'm running a DieselGeek Sigma and a B&M shifter.

    4. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-13-2012 09:04 PM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by ToeBall View Post
      Even HPA says to go with the lowest durometer mounts. I've got 60k on my TDI so far, and apart from a BFI dogbone bushing insert, I've done nothing to the mounts. The engine moves quite a bit even stock. Watch someone pull your car up and you can see the wheels moving longitudinally in the arches. The shifting feels as tight as always, and I'd notice since I'm running a DieselGeek Sigma and a B&M shifter.
      How much of a difference in vibration and tightness did you notice from installing the dogbone mount insert? I'm at 62k now and its killing me that my car doesn't feel new anymore, and the dogbone sounds like the perfect place to start. I can feel lots of engine movement when going from load to no load and vice versa. 40 bucks is well worth it to tighten that up.

      Ive had my eye on the dieselgeek shifter for a while now, and I think I may order one soon.
      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
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    5. Banner Advertiser ECS Tuning's Avatar
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      09-14-2012 02:02 PM #5
      If you are looking to do a full kit or just the insert, we have you covered!


      Full VF dogbone kit -




      Dogbone Mount Insert Kit -


      http://www.ecstuning.com
      :: Phone: 1.800.924.5172 - Hours: Mon. - Fri. 8:00AM - 11:00PM EST Saturday 10:00AM - 7:00PM EST :: Email: sales@ecstuning.com & customerservice@ecstuning.com :: Facebook :: YouTube :: Live Chat :: Instagram :: Customer Reviews

    6. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-14-2012 10:55 PM #6
      Regarding the full kit, does the factory dogbone have any rubber bushings in it itself, or just the circular bushing in the subframe? If it does, what is in the one included in the full kit and how much of an effect does it have on vibration compared to just the insert?

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      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
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    7. Banner Advertiser ECS Tuning's Avatar
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      09-18-2012 04:51 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post
      Regarding the full kit, does the factory dogbone have any rubber bushings in it itself, or just the circular bushing in the subframe? If it does, what is in the one included in the full kit and how much of an effect does it have on vibration compared to just the insert?
      The full VF kit will have solid polyurethane inserts reduce this movement and constructed from billet aluminum. Here is a photo of the stock mount for reference -


      http://www.ecstuning.com
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    8. Member GASDAG's Avatar
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      09-18-2012 05:18 PM #8
      Do these products actually increase or decrease the vibration you feel in the cabin?

    9. Member CC-Rider's Avatar
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      09-18-2012 06:11 PM #9
      As already mentioned, go with the lowest Durometer.

      I've had the ECS insert for 3 weeks now, on my 10' GTI, and I am taking it out. My previous ride (08' GTI) had a insert too and the vibration was hardly noticeable. After doing some research I found out the mount for the 08' GTI was 70A Torque Durometer Polyurethane and the one for my 10' GTI is 90A Torque Durometer Polyurethane.

      Let me tell you, the 90A Torque Durometer Polyurethane insert will rattle the teeth out of your head. Turn the AC on and it doubles the vibration. Do yourself a favor and stick with something like a BFI stage 1 insert. They're on sale right now for $35 - http://store.blackforestindustries.c...oarmin091.html
      Last edited by CC-Rider; 09-18-2012 at 06:24 PM.
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      09-19-2012 04:48 AM #10
      I have the ECS insert it does vibrate some Just installed it monday I have put about 70 miles on it so far I am hoping the vibration gets better with time. But there is a definate improvment in shifting much much smoother.

    11. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 08:00 AM #11
      Yea, that's why I was asking. BFI offers a 70a and 90a rated poly insert, and the ecs insert is only offered in 90a.

      What im wondering, is with the full dogbone kit, does the gain in tightness outweigh the possible gain in vibration. The full kit seems to be thicker than the stock mount, and also has that poly bushing between the 2 sections instead of the stock rubber bushing. Then again, that stock rubber bushing doesn't look like it isolates much vibration anyway (looks like an inch or less in diameter).

      I would like to hear from people who have the full kit, and the difference in vibration over just the insert.

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      Last edited by DankNugz; 09-19-2012 at 08:16 AM.
      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

    12. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 08:03 AM #12
      Does any other company out there offer a full kit, possibly with a 70a rated bushing instead of 90a?

      Im just trying to figure out weather the full kit is worth it at all, from a performance standpoint, over just the insert, and if it will rattle my brain so much that I will end up just buying the 70a insert from bfi.

      If there is a performance difference and the additional vibration is not too much to handle in my daily driver, I will spend the 200 on the full kit, but if im going to do that, I'd like to be able to find a 70a full kit for peace of mind that my 200 bucks wont cause every screw in my dash to be rattled loose.

      I had hockey pucks for my rear mount in my mk3 for a week, and I ditched those very quickly for a 70a poly kit from bfi.

      In my mk3 2.0, I had 70a poly inserts for the front and rear and a g60 solid rubber trans mount, and I could deal with that much vibration from the TDI, but I wouldn't want much more.

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      Last edited by DankNugz; 09-19-2012 at 08:19 AM.
      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

    13. Member GASDAG's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 11:39 AM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post
      In my mk3 2.0, I had 70a poly inserts for the front and rear and a g60 solid rubber trans mount, and I could deal with that much vibration from the TDI, but I wouldn't want much more.
      I think my shifting is perfectly fine in stock form in my TDI. Not as short as my civic SI shifter was, but just as smooth IMO. I never mis-shift or grind gears or smell roasted clutch like I have in other cars. So I woulnd't care to do anything to upgrade/alter my shifting, I'm just looking for a way to actually reduce the vibration felt in the cabin from the TDI motor. It's worse on cold mornings, and I had my dealer inspect and they said it's all within specs and normal for the TDI to have this much vibration. So if there is an aftermarket way to reduce TDI engine vibration felt in the cabin, that would be great.

    14. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 01:12 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by GASDAG View Post
      I think my shifting is perfectly fine in stock form in my TDI. Not as short as my civic SI shifter was, but just as smooth IMO. I never mis-shift or grind gears or smell roasted clutch like I have in other cars. So I woulnd't care to do anything to upgrade/alter my shifting, I'm just looking for a way to actually reduce the vibration felt in the cabin from the TDI motor. It's worse on cold mornings, and I had my dealer inspect and they said it's all within specs and normal for the TDI to have this much vibration. So if there is an aftermarket way to reduce TDI engine vibration felt in the cabin, that would be great.
      If you don't like the vibration you feel from stock mounts, DO NOT get anything aftermarket, you will hate it. As far as reducing vibration from stock goes, I don't think you'll get much better than stock mounts.

      My issue isn't so much the shifting, although it would be nice to tighten that up a bit. I am more concerned about how much I feel the motor move when going from no load(engine braking in gear) to mid to high load and vice versa. It feels looser than it did when the car was new, but I wasn't that comfortable with the amount of movement that the engine had from day 1.

      I think VW engineered the mounts with vibration isolation in mind, not performance or shift quality, because part of the target market for TDIs is ex hybrid owners. They put a lot of work into minimizing noise and vibration on these things, because all those idiots who like hybrids wouldn't even consider diesels due to the noise and vibration.

      All that engineering to make them quiet and smooth feeling is counterintuitive to performance(turbo damper, hollow rubber mounts, etc) if you don't mind a little more noise or vibration. The new CR TDI puts down a decent amount of torque, but it will never get to the ground if you have all that movement that the stock dogbone mount results in.

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      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

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      09-19-2012 03:47 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post

      My issue isn't so much the shifting, although it would be nice to tighten that up a bit. I am more concerned about how much I feel the motor move when going from no load(engine braking in gear) to mid to high load and vice versa. It feels looser than it did when the car was new, but I wasn't that comfortable with the amount of movement that the engine had from day 1.
      DankNugz, from day 1 My 2012 TDI Golf (Now Has 5k mi) I have also felt movement (or clunk) in the drivetrain in certain situations when I press and release the accelerator, while cruising in gear. (Usually in 3rd or 4th, but have felt it in all gears) It also seems to be worse, and happen more often when on a decline, and better or non existent when on an incline or flat surface.

      I have checked all of my subframe bolts, engine mount, and tranny mounts, and all are tight. I also figured it was the weak dogbone mount, even though I took videos of my engine movement while reproducing it, and the engine didn't move much.

      I just installed HPA's 75a dogbone mount last Sunday. Unfortunately, I can still feel the clunk/movement when cursing. It seems to not be quite as bad now though, but bad enough to still annoy me on a daily basis. On top of that, I am getting a fair amount of vibrations at startup, launch, and idle. They vibes are getting a little better in the 250 miles I have put on it, but are still bad enough to make me want to put a stock mount back in! I will give it a little more time to break in, but will likely be taking it out soon, because the vibes drive me nuts!

      So if this movement we are experiencing isn't due to a loose mount, or subframe, and a 75a poly dogbone mount doesn't fix it, what could it possibly be? I also took my car into VW, and they couldn't reproduce it (Big surprise) but they said they checked the mounts, adn they are fine.

      I am also starting to wounder if this movement is normal, and coming from the DMF, and this feeling is the 2 masses rotating in opposite directions when accelerate, and then you feel the movement again as the 2 masses spring back into place?

      Here is a video of how a DMF works, to help illustrate what I am talking about:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfNjA...eature=related

      Also, here is a link to my youtube channel that have a couple videos of my engine movement:

      http://www.youtube.com/user/amccaulx/videos?view=0
      Last edited by whiplash willy; 09-19-2012 at 03:51 PM.

    16. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 04:52 PM #16
      Just for comparison purposes, is that HPA mount a full dogbone replacement or just the insert for the bushing in the subframe?

      Wow as soon as I watched the video, I had an ah ha moment.

      That not only explains what I thought was the loose dogbone mount, but also addresses the vibration I have always gotten under low gear, high load situations. It almost feels like an axel inbalance, but I bet you its just the DMF hitting the second stage and transferring the torsional vibration to the car instead of dampening it.

      That also explains why I couldn't feel the "engine movement" in my shifter as I could on my old mk3 vr when that had loose mounts. Its because the engine isn't moving, its the 2 sections of the DMF separating creating the feel of engine movement. That makes me want to go to single mass when its time to do a clutch. I wonder what the difference in vibration would be?

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      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

    17. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 04:54 PM #17
      If all of what I said is correct, that does make me feel a lot better that a "loose engine feel" is normal and so is the heavy vibration under load.

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      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

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      09-19-2012 06:58 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post
      Just for comparison purposes, is that HPA mount a full dogbone replacement or just the insert for the bushing in the subframe?

      Wow as soon as I watched the video, I had an ah ha moment.

      That not only explains what I thought was the loose dogbone mount, but also addresses the vibration I have always gotten under low gear, high load situations. It almost feels like an axel inbalance, but I bet you its just the DMF hitting the second stage and transferring the torsional vibration to the car instead of dampening it.

      That also explains why I couldn't feel the "engine movement" in my shifter as I could on my old mk3 vr when that had loose mounts. Its because the engine isn't moving, its the 2 sections of the DMF separating creating the feel of engine movement. That makes me want to go to single mass when its time to do a clutch. I wonder what the difference in vibration would be?

      Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2
      The HPA mount is a complete replacement for the dogbone mount bushing in the subframe. You retain the stock dogbone piece. I had to cut out my stock mount (A huge PITA) and I will now likely have to buy a new stock one $60, and press it in

      http://www.hpamotorsport.com/mounts.htm

      Can you give me more details on the low gear, high load vibrations, I would like to try to reproduce them on my car (Once the stock mount is back in).

      Also, it is just a guess (But seems like it could be true) that what we are feeling is the movement of the DMF. I have talked to a few people with TDIs and DMFs, and they say they don't feel this movement, but maybe they have it, and just don't realize it?.....I tend to be pretty sensitive to any kind of noise or abnormal feeling my car makes, and maybe others aren't...

      Also I had a 2011 Jetta TDI with DSG, which also has a DMF, and I never felt the movement/clunk in it in the 10k miles I had it. I am not sure if that is just because it is a DSG ( I wounder how different the DSG and Manual DMFs are)

      Anyways, I would like to hear from others with Manual TDIs, and see if they also experience this movement/clunk we are feeling. To reproduce: When coasting in 3rd or 4th between 35-50mph, try lightly stepping on the accelerator for a sec, then let off, and note if you feel any drivetrain movement as you step on or let of. Also just try lighly and quickly "Flicking" the accelerator to see if it does this. You can also just try accelerating a few hundred RPMS and see if it does it. Try to do it in a downhill section.
      Last edited by whiplash willy; 09-19-2012 at 07:15 PM.

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      09-19-2012 07:00 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post
      If all of what I said is correct, that does make me feel a lot better that a "loose engine feel" is normal and so is the heavy vibration under load.

      Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2
      I really wounder if it is normal, I have a hard time believing any car, especially a new one, would have the kind of engine clunking/movement I am experiencing. It is my first Manual TDI with a DMF though, so who knows....It really is keeping me from enjoying this car!

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      09-20-2012 02:55 AM #20
      I always felt the movement and clunk in the driveline, I do still have some driveline movement but it is alot better but the vibration at idle is annoying I can deal with it for now because the car does feel like it puts power to the ground better and the movment is better I am hoping after awhile the vibration lessens some. (mine is a Manual TDI 4dr)

    21. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-20-2012 08:57 AM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by hamiltonj2w1 View Post
      I always felt the movement and clunk in the driveline, I do still have some driveline movement but it is alot better but the vibration at idle is annoying I can deal with it for now because the car does feel like it puts power to the ground better and the movment is better I am hoping after awhile the vibration lessens some. (mine is a Manual TDI 4dr)
      Which mount did you install?

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      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

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      09-20-2012 10:40 AM #22
      I was searching on driveline lash, and came across this post that may explain some of the moment we are experiencing:

      my experience with driveline lash is multitudinous, and I'll list out the ways:

      1. Recent drive-by-wire setups with a sharp transition point. In my 2006 Civic SI, this is particularly pronounced in low-speeds in low-gears and moreso when cold. The car bucks between no throttle and partial throttle, and feels like the drivetrain is transmitting power in a surging fashion. Just a byproduct of poor drive by wire programming, not true driveline lash. (Also occurs in my 2008 Legacy GT, to a far lesser extent).

      2. True driveline lash as the gears in the drivetrain rattle slightly under the power pulses of the engine's delivery through the flywheel. This becomes more prevalent in many hard-sprung clutches with single-mass flywheels.
      A flywheel acts as a damping force on the engine (it's a heavy mass at the end of the crankshaft). A dual-mass flywheel is actually two masses that are "sprung" together and allow for pulses to be absorbed while still delivering power smoothly through the spinning flywheel (i.e. the flywheel absorbs the surges of pistons delivering their power, rather than transmitting it to the clutch/trans).
      A single-mass flywheel does not absorb these surges, so the next step is the clutch. Clutches have "sprung" hubs, where the middle of the clutch usually has ~4 springs that can absorb some of the twisting and then halting motion of the engine's power pulses. If the clutches spring rates are very hard (takes alot of force to compress them), then the power still "pulses" through the transmission.
      In order for gears to mesh, they can't be impenetrably tight to each other. As long as power is being delivered, the gears press against each other and the power is seamless. But when "pulses" go through the system, the gears press against each other, relax, press, relax.
      And sometimes you get noise. Especially in low gears, when the power pulses come much slower.
      The advantage of setups with more noise is, typically, a much crisper power delivery or in some cases (i.e. straight-cut gears) a much stronger way of building the gears.
      But sometimes it's also just greater build tolerances between gears and one car will have more noise than another. Kinda like oil consumption on some cars....not a sign anything is wrong, could even be a manufacturer build specification making it happen, but kinda annoys you nonetheless.
      Joe
      What do you guys think? Although last night I was able to induce the movement/clunk every time i stepped on the accelerator and let off, even if it was slowly and lightly. It was also accompanied by a noise that I could hear with the windows down (The same noise I hear when I press in my clutch pedal which is the clicking like sound from the arm and throw out bearing)

      Maybe this movement we are feeling is a sharp transition between 0 throttle and positive throttle because of the drive by wire system. I need to find a road by the dealership where I can reproduce this 100% of the time, and take out a new manual TDI and see if I can reproduce the issue in that one as well.

    23. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-20-2012 11:30 AM #23
      Im working now so I have to keep this short for now. I don't believe that what we're talking about here is from the drive by wire system. There is another surging issue I have experienced that may be attributed to DBW programing, but that did not feel like a loose engine mount.

      As I said above, the sprung nature of the dual mass flywheel seems to be the most likely cause because the whole idea of the DMF is to decrease vibration created in diesel engines at the expense of adding sprung driveline lash to the flywheel (looked like at least 45-90 degrees of flywheel movement based on the above posted video). I think its a normal effect of a DMF, and I would like to hear some people weigh in who have converted to a single mass flywheel, and if they had a change in feel when trying to reproduce the issue at hand.

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      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

    24. Member Guack007's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 1st, 2004
      Location
      So Cal
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      1,089
      Vehicles
      2011 Golf TDI, 1965 Beetle, 2010 Passat Wagon
      09-20-2012 01:01 PM #24
      I had the Green BFI mount in and the vibration was way too much, I switched to the Yellow and there is still alot of vibration. If you listen to the sales person from ECS and get what he recommended you will have insane vibration but "He's got you covered"

      The only option Ive heard of that is vibration free is suppose to be the one from autotech but I havent personally tried it:

      http://www.autotech.com/product/engi....html?fromcat=

    25. Member GASDAG's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 8th, 2012
      Location
      Columbus, OH
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      '02 Jetta TDI GLS Sedan 5MT, Malone Tuned
      09-20-2012 02:29 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by Guack007 View Post
      I had the Green BFI mount in and the vibration was way too much, I switched to the Yellow and there is still alot of vibration. If you listen to the sales person from ECS and get what he recommended you will have insane vibration but "He's got you covered"

      The only option Ive heard of that is vibration free is suppose to be the one from autotech but I havent personally tried it:

      http://www.autotech.com/product/engi....html?fromcat=
      wow that looks sweet! for only $20 too...
      install instructions:
      http://www.autotech.com/mm5/instructions/i199500K.pdf

      Nobody on here has installed this on their tdi?

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