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    Thread: Mk6 tdi motor mount options

    1. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      04-17-2012 08:37 AM #1
      So my tdi already has 45k on the odo and Im already feeling the slop in my dogbone mount. In fact, my roommate says my motor "does a little dance" when I shut my drivers door. I am looking for a solution to replace the dogbone with somthing other than stock that wont rattle my brain with the vibration of the tdi.

      Is there some sort of solid rubber mount out there as opposed to the poly ones offered by most companies?

      Are the mk6 gti mounts any different than the tdi? Stiffer possibly?

      My moms passat had the dogbone go bad and didn't take care of it and the downpipe broke right off the turbo, so im trying to avoid a situation like that.

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      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
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      04-17-2012 08:57 AM #2
      Be very careful about picking mounts, I had aftermarket mounts for the GTI on my TDI and I had to remove them, too much vibration.

      Always look for the lowest durometer.
      Semper Fi | USMC '06-'14 | 0311 | 0331| 0933
      Quote Originally Posted by GoForBroke View Post
      I'm noticing more and more that Aonarch has some of the better comments.
      Aye, I do.

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      04-18-2012 09:57 AM #3
      Even HPA says to go with the lowest durometer mounts. I've got 60k on my TDI so far, and apart from a BFI dogbone bushing insert, I've done nothing to the mounts. The engine moves quite a bit even stock. Watch someone pull your car up and you can see the wheels moving longitudinally in the arches. The shifting feels as tight as always, and I'd notice since I'm running a DieselGeek Sigma and a B&M shifter.

    4. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-13-2012 10:04 PM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by ToeBall View Post
      Even HPA says to go with the lowest durometer mounts. I've got 60k on my TDI so far, and apart from a BFI dogbone bushing insert, I've done nothing to the mounts. The engine moves quite a bit even stock. Watch someone pull your car up and you can see the wheels moving longitudinally in the arches. The shifting feels as tight as always, and I'd notice since I'm running a DieselGeek Sigma and a B&M shifter.
      How much of a difference in vibration and tightness did you notice from installing the dogbone mount insert? I'm at 62k now and its killing me that my car doesn't feel new anymore, and the dogbone sounds like the perfect place to start. I can feel lots of engine movement when going from load to no load and vice versa. 40 bucks is well worth it to tighten that up.

      Ive had my eye on the dieselgeek shifter for a while now, and I think I may order one soon.
      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
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    5. Banner Advertiser ECS Tuning's Avatar
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      09-14-2012 03:02 PM #5
      If you are looking to do a full kit or just the insert, we have you covered!


      Full VF dogbone kit -




      Dogbone Mount Insert Kit -


      http://www.ecstuning.com
      :: Phone: 1.800.924.5172 - Hours: Mon. - Fri. 8:00AM - 11:00PM EST Saturday 10:00AM - 7:00PM EST :: Email: sales@ecstuning.com & customerservice@ecstuning.com :: Facebook :: YouTube :: Live Chat :: Instagram

    6. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-14-2012 11:55 PM #6
      Regarding the full kit, does the factory dogbone have any rubber bushings in it itself, or just the circular bushing in the subframe? If it does, what is in the one included in the full kit and how much of an effect does it have on vibration compared to just the insert?

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      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
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    7. Banner Advertiser ECS Tuning's Avatar
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      09-18-2012 05:51 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post
      Regarding the full kit, does the factory dogbone have any rubber bushings in it itself, or just the circular bushing in the subframe? If it does, what is in the one included in the full kit and how much of an effect does it have on vibration compared to just the insert?
      The full VF kit will have solid polyurethane inserts reduce this movement and constructed from billet aluminum. Here is a photo of the stock mount for reference -


      http://www.ecstuning.com
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    8. Member GASDAG's Avatar
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      09-18-2012 06:18 PM #8
      Do these products actually increase or decrease the vibration you feel in the cabin?

    9. Member CC-Rider's Avatar
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      09-18-2012 07:11 PM #9
      As already mentioned, go with the lowest Durometer.

      I've had the ECS insert for 3 weeks now, on my 10' GTI, and I am taking it out. My previous ride (08' GTI) had a insert too and the vibration was hardly noticeable. After doing some research I found out the mount for the 08' GTI was 70A Torque Durometer Polyurethane and the one for my 10' GTI is 90A Torque Durometer Polyurethane.

      Let me tell you, the 90A Torque Durometer Polyurethane insert will rattle the teeth out of your head. Turn the AC on and it doubles the vibration. Do yourself a favor and stick with something like a BFI stage 1 insert. They're on sale right now for $35 - http://store.blackforestindustries.c...oarmin091.html
      Last edited by CC-Rider; 09-18-2012 at 07:24 PM.
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      09-19-2012 05:48 AM #10
      I have the ECS insert it does vibrate some Just installed it monday I have put about 70 miles on it so far I am hoping the vibration gets better with time. But there is a definate improvment in shifting much much smoother.

    11. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 09:00 AM #11
      Yea, that's why I was asking. BFI offers a 70a and 90a rated poly insert, and the ecs insert is only offered in 90a.

      What im wondering, is with the full dogbone kit, does the gain in tightness outweigh the possible gain in vibration. The full kit seems to be thicker than the stock mount, and also has that poly bushing between the 2 sections instead of the stock rubber bushing. Then again, that stock rubber bushing doesn't look like it isolates much vibration anyway (looks like an inch or less in diameter).

      I would like to hear from people who have the full kit, and the difference in vibration over just the insert.

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      Last edited by DankNugz; 09-19-2012 at 09:16 AM.
      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

    12. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 09:03 AM #12
      Does any other company out there offer a full kit, possibly with a 70a rated bushing instead of 90a?

      Im just trying to figure out weather the full kit is worth it at all, from a performance standpoint, over just the insert, and if it will rattle my brain so much that I will end up just buying the 70a insert from bfi.

      If there is a performance difference and the additional vibration is not too much to handle in my daily driver, I will spend the 200 on the full kit, but if im going to do that, I'd like to be able to find a 70a full kit for peace of mind that my 200 bucks wont cause every screw in my dash to be rattled loose.

      I had hockey pucks for my rear mount in my mk3 for a week, and I ditched those very quickly for a 70a poly kit from bfi.

      In my mk3 2.0, I had 70a poly inserts for the front and rear and a g60 solid rubber trans mount, and I could deal with that much vibration from the TDI, but I wouldn't want much more.

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      Last edited by DankNugz; 09-19-2012 at 09:19 AM.
      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
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    13. Member GASDAG's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 12:39 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post
      In my mk3 2.0, I had 70a poly inserts for the front and rear and a g60 solid rubber trans mount, and I could deal with that much vibration from the TDI, but I wouldn't want much more.
      I think my shifting is perfectly fine in stock form in my TDI. Not as short as my civic SI shifter was, but just as smooth IMO. I never mis-shift or grind gears or smell roasted clutch like I have in other cars. So I woulnd't care to do anything to upgrade/alter my shifting, I'm just looking for a way to actually reduce the vibration felt in the cabin from the TDI motor. It's worse on cold mornings, and I had my dealer inspect and they said it's all within specs and normal for the TDI to have this much vibration. So if there is an aftermarket way to reduce TDI engine vibration felt in the cabin, that would be great.

    14. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 02:12 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by GASDAG View Post
      I think my shifting is perfectly fine in stock form in my TDI. Not as short as my civic SI shifter was, but just as smooth IMO. I never mis-shift or grind gears or smell roasted clutch like I have in other cars. So I woulnd't care to do anything to upgrade/alter my shifting, I'm just looking for a way to actually reduce the vibration felt in the cabin from the TDI motor. It's worse on cold mornings, and I had my dealer inspect and they said it's all within specs and normal for the TDI to have this much vibration. So if there is an aftermarket way to reduce TDI engine vibration felt in the cabin, that would be great.
      If you don't like the vibration you feel from stock mounts, DO NOT get anything aftermarket, you will hate it. As far as reducing vibration from stock goes, I don't think you'll get much better than stock mounts.

      My issue isn't so much the shifting, although it would be nice to tighten that up a bit. I am more concerned about how much I feel the motor move when going from no load(engine braking in gear) to mid to high load and vice versa. It feels looser than it did when the car was new, but I wasn't that comfortable with the amount of movement that the engine had from day 1.

      I think VW engineered the mounts with vibration isolation in mind, not performance or shift quality, because part of the target market for TDIs is ex hybrid owners. They put a lot of work into minimizing noise and vibration on these things, because all those idiots who like hybrids wouldn't even consider diesels due to the noise and vibration.

      All that engineering to make them quiet and smooth feeling is counterintuitive to performance(turbo damper, hollow rubber mounts, etc) if you don't mind a little more noise or vibration. The new CR TDI puts down a decent amount of torque, but it will never get to the ground if you have all that movement that the stock dogbone mount results in.

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      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

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      09-19-2012 04:47 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post

      My issue isn't so much the shifting, although it would be nice to tighten that up a bit. I am more concerned about how much I feel the motor move when going from no load(engine braking in gear) to mid to high load and vice versa. It feels looser than it did when the car was new, but I wasn't that comfortable with the amount of movement that the engine had from day 1.
      DankNugz, from day 1 My 2012 TDI Golf (Now Has 5k mi) I have also felt movement (or clunk) in the drivetrain in certain situations when I press and release the accelerator, while cruising in gear. (Usually in 3rd or 4th, but have felt it in all gears) It also seems to be worse, and happen more often when on a decline, and better or non existent when on an incline or flat surface.

      I have checked all of my subframe bolts, engine mount, and tranny mounts, and all are tight. I also figured it was the weak dogbone mount, even though I took videos of my engine movement while reproducing it, and the engine didn't move much.

      I just installed HPA's 75a dogbone mount last Sunday. Unfortunately, I can still feel the clunk/movement when cursing. It seems to not be quite as bad now though, but bad enough to still annoy me on a daily basis. On top of that, I am getting a fair amount of vibrations at startup, launch, and idle. They vibes are getting a little better in the 250 miles I have put on it, but are still bad enough to make me want to put a stock mount back in! I will give it a little more time to break in, but will likely be taking it out soon, because the vibes drive me nuts!

      So if this movement we are experiencing isn't due to a loose mount, or subframe, and a 75a poly dogbone mount doesn't fix it, what could it possibly be? I also took my car into VW, and they couldn't reproduce it (Big surprise) but they said they checked the mounts, adn they are fine.

      I am also starting to wounder if this movement is normal, and coming from the DMF, and this feeling is the 2 masses rotating in opposite directions when accelerate, and then you feel the movement again as the 2 masses spring back into place?

      Here is a video of how a DMF works, to help illustrate what I am talking about:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfNjA...eature=related

      Also, here is a link to my youtube channel that have a couple videos of my engine movement:

      http://www.youtube.com/user/amccaulx/videos?view=0
      Last edited by whiplash willy; 09-19-2012 at 04:51 PM.

    16. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 05:52 PM #16
      Just for comparison purposes, is that HPA mount a full dogbone replacement or just the insert for the bushing in the subframe?

      Wow as soon as I watched the video, I had an ah ha moment.

      That not only explains what I thought was the loose dogbone mount, but also addresses the vibration I have always gotten under low gear, high load situations. It almost feels like an axel inbalance, but I bet you its just the DMF hitting the second stage and transferring the torsional vibration to the car instead of dampening it.

      That also explains why I couldn't feel the "engine movement" in my shifter as I could on my old mk3 vr when that had loose mounts. Its because the engine isn't moving, its the 2 sections of the DMF separating creating the feel of engine movement. That makes me want to go to single mass when its time to do a clutch. I wonder what the difference in vibration would be?

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      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

    17. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-19-2012 05:54 PM #17
      If all of what I said is correct, that does make me feel a lot better that a "loose engine feel" is normal and so is the heavy vibration under load.

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      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

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      09-19-2012 07:58 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post
      Just for comparison purposes, is that HPA mount a full dogbone replacement or just the insert for the bushing in the subframe?

      Wow as soon as I watched the video, I had an ah ha moment.

      That not only explains what I thought was the loose dogbone mount, but also addresses the vibration I have always gotten under low gear, high load situations. It almost feels like an axel inbalance, but I bet you its just the DMF hitting the second stage and transferring the torsional vibration to the car instead of dampening it.

      That also explains why I couldn't feel the "engine movement" in my shifter as I could on my old mk3 vr when that had loose mounts. Its because the engine isn't moving, its the 2 sections of the DMF separating creating the feel of engine movement. That makes me want to go to single mass when its time to do a clutch. I wonder what the difference in vibration would be?

      Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2
      The HPA mount is a complete replacement for the dogbone mount bushing in the subframe. You retain the stock dogbone piece. I had to cut out my stock mount (A huge PITA) and I will now likely have to buy a new stock one $60, and press it in

      http://www.hpamotorsport.com/mounts.htm

      Can you give me more details on the low gear, high load vibrations, I would like to try to reproduce them on my car (Once the stock mount is back in).

      Also, it is just a guess (But seems like it could be true) that what we are feeling is the movement of the DMF. I have talked to a few people with TDIs and DMFs, and they say they don't feel this movement, but maybe they have it, and just don't realize it?.....I tend to be pretty sensitive to any kind of noise or abnormal feeling my car makes, and maybe others aren't...

      Also I had a 2011 Jetta TDI with DSG, which also has a DMF, and I never felt the movement/clunk in it in the 10k miles I had it. I am not sure if that is just because it is a DSG ( I wounder how different the DSG and Manual DMFs are)

      Anyways, I would like to hear from others with Manual TDIs, and see if they also experience this movement/clunk we are feeling. To reproduce: When coasting in 3rd or 4th between 35-50mph, try lightly stepping on the accelerator for a sec, then let off, and note if you feel any drivetrain movement as you step on or let of. Also just try lighly and quickly "Flicking" the accelerator to see if it does this. You can also just try accelerating a few hundred RPMS and see if it does it. Try to do it in a downhill section.
      Last edited by whiplash willy; 09-19-2012 at 08:15 PM.

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      09-19-2012 08:00 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post
      If all of what I said is correct, that does make me feel a lot better that a "loose engine feel" is normal and so is the heavy vibration under load.

      Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2
      I really wounder if it is normal, I have a hard time believing any car, especially a new one, would have the kind of engine clunking/movement I am experiencing. It is my first Manual TDI with a DMF though, so who knows....It really is keeping me from enjoying this car!

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      09-20-2012 03:55 AM #20
      I always felt the movement and clunk in the driveline, I do still have some driveline movement but it is alot better but the vibration at idle is annoying I can deal with it for now because the car does feel like it puts power to the ground better and the movment is better I am hoping after awhile the vibration lessens some. (mine is a Manual TDI 4dr)

    21. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-20-2012 09:57 AM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by hamiltonj2w1 View Post
      I always felt the movement and clunk in the driveline, I do still have some driveline movement but it is alot better but the vibration at idle is annoying I can deal with it for now because the car does feel like it puts power to the ground better and the movment is better I am hoping after awhile the vibration lessens some. (mine is a Manual TDI 4dr)
      Which mount did you install?

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      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

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      09-20-2012 11:40 AM #22
      I was searching on driveline lash, and came across this post that may explain some of the moment we are experiencing:

      my experience with driveline lash is multitudinous, and I'll list out the ways:

      1. Recent drive-by-wire setups with a sharp transition point. In my 2006 Civic SI, this is particularly pronounced in low-speeds in low-gears and moreso when cold. The car bucks between no throttle and partial throttle, and feels like the drivetrain is transmitting power in a surging fashion. Just a byproduct of poor drive by wire programming, not true driveline lash. (Also occurs in my 2008 Legacy GT, to a far lesser extent).

      2. True driveline lash as the gears in the drivetrain rattle slightly under the power pulses of the engine's delivery through the flywheel. This becomes more prevalent in many hard-sprung clutches with single-mass flywheels.
      A flywheel acts as a damping force on the engine (it's a heavy mass at the end of the crankshaft). A dual-mass flywheel is actually two masses that are "sprung" together and allow for pulses to be absorbed while still delivering power smoothly through the spinning flywheel (i.e. the flywheel absorbs the surges of pistons delivering their power, rather than transmitting it to the clutch/trans).
      A single-mass flywheel does not absorb these surges, so the next step is the clutch. Clutches have "sprung" hubs, where the middle of the clutch usually has ~4 springs that can absorb some of the twisting and then halting motion of the engine's power pulses. If the clutches spring rates are very hard (takes alot of force to compress them), then the power still "pulses" through the transmission.
      In order for gears to mesh, they can't be impenetrably tight to each other. As long as power is being delivered, the gears press against each other and the power is seamless. But when "pulses" go through the system, the gears press against each other, relax, press, relax.
      And sometimes you get noise. Especially in low gears, when the power pulses come much slower.
      The advantage of setups with more noise is, typically, a much crisper power delivery or in some cases (i.e. straight-cut gears) a much stronger way of building the gears.
      But sometimes it's also just greater build tolerances between gears and one car will have more noise than another. Kinda like oil consumption on some cars....not a sign anything is wrong, could even be a manufacturer build specification making it happen, but kinda annoys you nonetheless.
      Joe
      What do you guys think? Although last night I was able to induce the movement/clunk every time i stepped on the accelerator and let off, even if it was slowly and lightly. It was also accompanied by a noise that I could hear with the windows down (The same noise I hear when I press in my clutch pedal which is the clicking like sound from the arm and throw out bearing)

      Maybe this movement we are feeling is a sharp transition between 0 throttle and positive throttle because of the drive by wire system. I need to find a road by the dealership where I can reproduce this 100% of the time, and take out a new manual TDI and see if I can reproduce the issue in that one as well.

    23. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-20-2012 12:30 PM #23
      Im working now so I have to keep this short for now. I don't believe that what we're talking about here is from the drive by wire system. There is another surging issue I have experienced that may be attributed to DBW programing, but that did not feel like a loose engine mount.

      As I said above, the sprung nature of the dual mass flywheel seems to be the most likely cause because the whole idea of the DMF is to decrease vibration created in diesel engines at the expense of adding sprung driveline lash to the flywheel (looked like at least 45-90 degrees of flywheel movement based on the above posted video). I think its a normal effect of a DMF, and I would like to hear some people weigh in who have converted to a single mass flywheel, and if they had a change in feel when trying to reproduce the issue at hand.

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      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

    24. Member Guack007's Avatar
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      09-20-2012 02:01 PM #24
      I had the Green BFI mount in and the vibration was way too much, I switched to the Yellow and there is still alot of vibration. If you listen to the sales person from ECS and get what he recommended you will have insane vibration but "He's got you covered"

      The only option Ive heard of that is vibration free is suppose to be the one from autotech but I havent personally tried it:

      http://www.autotech.com/product/engi....html?fromcat=

    25. Member GASDAG's Avatar
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      09-20-2012 03:29 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by Guack007 View Post
      I had the Green BFI mount in and the vibration was way too much, I switched to the Yellow and there is still alot of vibration. If you listen to the sales person from ECS and get what he recommended you will have insane vibration but "He's got you covered"

      The only option Ive heard of that is vibration free is suppose to be the one from autotech but I havent personally tried it:

      http://www.autotech.com/product/engi....html?fromcat=
      wow that looks sweet! for only $20 too...
      install instructions:
      http://www.autotech.com/mm5/instructions/i199500K.pdf

      Nobody on here has installed this on their tdi?

    26. Member Guack007's Avatar
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      09-20-2012 05:39 PM #26
      I'm sure if you search you'll find some reviews

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      09-20-2012 08:48 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post
      Which mount did you install?

      Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2
      Just the ECS insert and after about 200 miles the vibration at idle has gone down alot reverse is another story.

    28. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-20-2012 10:38 PM #28
      http://www.autotech.com/product/engi...t-mkvi-gti-2t]

      ^ That looks like the best option to tighten it up and add the least possible vibration, and yes 20 bucks is a great deal.

      http://store.blackforestindustries.c...oarmin091.html

      ^That would be the next best option for the best price(70a poly insert). 35 bucks and you can get a 90a hardness one for 5 bucks more, but I would not go any harder than 70a from what was said about the ECS mount above

      As far as our mysterious driveline movement goes, it can probably be attributed to both the dogbone mount and the dual mass flywheel. Everyone on here said after installing some sort of mount, the movement lessened but was still there, so it cant just be the mounts, and I don't believe we can tighten the mounts situation anymore without rattling our cars to pieces.

      Like I said before, all this talk about the DMF really makes me want to go to a single mass flywheel when it comes time to do a clutch. Would it really add that much vibration to the car? I don't see how it could be any worse than the older mk4 TDIs and they have a standard single mass flywheel, don't they?
      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

    29. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-20-2012 10:50 PM #29
      A dual-mass flywheel is actually two masses that are "sprung" together and allow for pulses to be absorbed while still delivering power smoothly through the spinning flywheel (i.e. the flywheel absorbs the surges of pistons delivering their power, rather than transmitting it to the clutch/trans).
      A single-mass flywheel does not absorb these surges
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfNjA...eature=related



      What we are feeling is the dual mass flywheel absorbing the "surge" created when quickly going from no-load decelerating to mid-load accelerating. Assuming the range of movement for the dual mass flywheel pieces relative to each other is what is shown in the video(looked to be about 135 degrees), lets just say when creating the symptom we are all describing, the masses of the flywheel move a total of 90 degrees relative to each other. Imagine if your engine mount was broken and the engine rotated 90 degrees on the axes of the axles. Considering the pieces of the flywheel weigh a lot less than an engine mounted in the bay, that 90 degrees of flywheel "lash" should not feel like an engine hopping around. That's how you get our clunk, and that's why I think it may be normal. I am by no means an expert, but that is the best logical explanation I could come up with.
      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

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      09-21-2012 12:00 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post
      http://www.autotech.com/product/engi...t-mkvi-gti-2t]

      ^ That looks like the best option to tighten it up and add the least possible vibration, and yes 20 bucks is a great deal.

      http://store.blackforestindustries.c...oarmin091.html

      ^That would be the next best option for the best price(70a poly insert). 35 bucks and you can get a 90a hardness one for 5 bucks more, but I would not go any harder than 70a from what was said about the ECS mount above

      As far as our mysterious driveline movement goes, it can probably be attributed to both the dogbone mount and the dual mass flywheel. Everyone on here said after installing some sort of mount, the movement lessened but was still there, so it cant just be the mounts, and I don't believe we can tighten the mounts situation anymore without rattling our cars to pieces.

      Like I said before, all this talk about the DMF really makes me want to go to a single mass flywheel when it comes time to do a clutch. Would it really add that much vibration to the car? I don't see how it could be any worse than the older mk4 TDIs and they have a standard single mass flywheel, don't they?
      This guy went from the AutoTech to The HPA Mount: (Of course it is a 2.5, not a TDI)

      http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthr...unt&p=73523674

      I think the BFI is probley the best bet to try out because it is cheap, and can easily be removed if you don't like the feel, unlike the HPA where you have to destroy the original mount, and if you dont like it you have to buy a new oem one, $60, and press it in... Although, I have heard of the inserts breaking after 10-20k miles.

      The MK4s do have a DMF, my friend swapped his DMF out on his MK4 a few years ago for a SMF. What sucks about SMFs for our cars, is there are only 2 options available, and 1 kit cost $800, the other is $1200. I hear with a SMF, you don't want to go with a lighter flywheel, or it will be really bad. There aren't alot of MK6ers that have done a SMF swap, os there isn't alot of info available. The only person I have talked to about a MK6 SMF was on TDI Club, and he put a SBC SMF, Diff, and DG Short Shifter on his 2010 TDI Cup, and now, 7000 miles later, is having to replace 3 syncros I hear it only adds vibration at idle, but after living with this HPA mount for 1 week, I can tell you, any amount of vibration over stock at idle is incredibly annoying!

      Also, after driving a week with my HPA mount, the movement/clunk isn't any better then it was before on the stock mounts. I don't think any kind of dogbone reinforcement would help with the issue I am having atleast. The only improvement I feel with the mount is when starting from a stop in 1st or R, or when shifting above 3000rpm. Other then that, it really doesn't' feel that much different, and is totally not worth the extra NVH.
      Last edited by whiplash willy; 09-21-2012 at 12:50 PM.

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      09-21-2012 12:49 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfNjA...eature=related



      What we are feeling is the dual mass flywheel absorbing the "surge" created when quickly going from no-load decelerating to mid-load accelerating. Assuming the range of movement for the dual mass flywheel pieces relative to each other is what is shown in the video(looked to be about 135 degrees), lets just say when creating the symptom we are all describing, the masses of the flywheel move a total of 90 degrees relative to each other. Imagine if your engine mount was broken and the engine rotated 90 degrees on the axes of the axles. Considering the pieces of the flywheel weigh a lot less than an engine mounted in the bay, that 90 degrees of flywheel "lash" should not feel like an engine hopping around. That's how you get our clunk, and that's why I think it may be normal. I am by no means an expert, but that is the best logical explanation I could come up with.
      DankNugz,

      I am glad I have found someone else who is having this issue, and that it bothers them as much as it bothers me! I hope we can both find a solution to this problem, or 100% conclude it is normal...

      BTW, your youtube link is broken.

      Also, when decelerating, how do you think the DMF masses are relative to each other? Are they at the 0 point, + point (Same as Accelerating), or - point.

      And as far as your issue goes, do you feel it all of the time, or just some of the time? For me, I feel it only some of the time when I press the accelerator from coasting, or let off the accelerator while cruising. It doesnt' seem to matter if I just barley press, or lift off the throttle, or really step on it, it will clunk either way. It also doesn't seem to matter if I am between 1000rpm and 2000rpm when coasting, or between 2000 and 3000.

      It also seems to happen less often when I am on a flat or inclined surface, and more often when I am on a decline, and/or, the passenger side of the car is lower then the driver side. What situations do you experience it more in.

      I as well would like to hear from more people who have done SMF swaps and seen if that has fixed the issue.

      In my searches, other people have complained about a similar issue on newer cars with DBW and DMFs. Especially with Subarus and BMWs...
      Last edited by whiplash willy; 09-21-2012 at 12:51 PM.

    32. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-21-2012 01:13 PM #32
      The HPA kit looks like an interesting design and I would consider it if I had a gas job, but no way for the diesel.

      As far as mounts go, I think im going with the 70a BFI insert and if that vibrates too much ill spend the 20 bucks to try out the autotech one.

      I've seen people over on TDIclub that were talking about using a either a VR6 flywheel with a G60 clutch or vice versa, but I need to do some more research on that one.

      I was already planning on upgrading the clutch when it needs to be replaced, because I am doing a DPF delete with a malone tune and I know the stock TDI clutch can't hold too much torque over stock. Im curious how much the vibration changes when running a stock weight single mass flywheel (yes, I would never go with a lightened flywheel on a diesel, as it needs to have a good amount of mass to overcome the tighter compression stroke that a gas motor doesn't need. I think if you ran a lightened flywheel you'd feel every compression and ignition stroke, and every cylinder pressure spike).

      Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2
      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

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      09-21-2012 02:29 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by DankNugz View Post
      The HPA kit looks like an interesting design and I would consider it if I had a gas job, but no way for the diesel.

      As far as mounts go, I think im going with the 70a BFI insert and if that vibrates too much ill spend the 20 bucks to try out the autotech one.

      I've seen people over on TDIclub that were talking about using a either a VR6 flywheel with a G60 clutch or vice versa, but I need to do some more research on that one.

      I was already planning on upgrading the clutch when it needs to be replaced, because I am doing a DPF delete with a malone tune and I know the stock TDI clutch can't hold too much torque over stock. Im curious how much the vibration changes when running a stock weight single mass flywheel (yes, I would never go with a lightened flywheel on a diesel, as it needs to have a good amount of mass to overcome the tighter compression stroke that a gas motor doesn't need. I think if you ran a lightened flywheel you'd feel every compression and ignition stroke, and every cylinder pressure spike).

      Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2
      The VR6 flywheels are for the 5-speed transmissions, as well as most of the reasonably priced SMF conversion kits ($about 4-500). Unfortunately for our 6-speed transmissions, there are only 2 kits available:

      http://www.idparts.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=76_102

      The SBC Kit for $1,195 and the Valeo kit for $739. I have heard bad things about the valeo kit...

      Almost all of the info you can find on SMF conversions are for the 5 speed trannys, not much on our 6 speed trannys unfortunately. Not only are the parts are expensive, but then the labor isn't cheap either. That would suck to buy the $1,200 SBC kit, pay $500+ for the install, then turn out not to like the rattle it may produce it idle.

    34. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-21-2012 03:37 PM #34
      That youtube video is linked in a previous post on this thread.

      1200 bucks is pretty damn pricey for a flywheel kit, but I may consider it when the time comes. The labor is a non issue for me because I will be doing it myself at my roommate's shop.

      As far as our theories on the actual movement of the DMF go, let's say during hard acceleration(high load, going uphill, etc) the difference in position for the 2 masses is +45-60 degrees. During deceleration, the position of the masses(relative to each other) may be -45 degrees. So when you go from decel to accel, the masses of the flywheel have to move a total of 90 degrees(on springs) before that torque even gets to the transmission. Once the DMF shifts to accel mode, it then has to go through the trans(as explained above, there is always going to be some transmission lash), and then it hits the diff (also has built in lash). For our purposes, let's say the dogbone mount is "decompressed" during decel and "compressed" during accel. Now that torque hits the axels, and moves the dogbone mount from a "decompressed" position to a "compressed" position, which adds to total driveline lash.

      At all the "points of added lash" that I mentioned above, the most movement is manifested in the DMF, and that's why I think that's the main cause of our "clunk", and why the dogbone inserts don't seem to do much for it.

      Im still getting some kind of insert, because I do drive my car pretty hard and would like that mount to last regardless of what the cause of our clunk is.

      Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2
      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

    35. Member DankNugz's Avatar
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      09-21-2012 03:43 PM #35
      I don't notice it all the time, but I trust it does happen whenever I tap the gas pedal from decel. I think the people who don't notice it, simply don't notice it, because like I said a few posts ago, I have felt this movement since day 1 and I just figured it was the nature of the dogbone mount they put in the diesels to isolate vibration, but obviously that's not the case since people have installed inserts and still experience the symptom.

      Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2
      The MK2 Golf TDI build thread

      Quote Originally Posted by ravera View Post
      How could you forget the most important point of all? Arguing on an internet forum. You'll never win with your silly pushrods.
      You can use my VAG COM for a case of beer - check my location and PM me

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