Mk6 tdi motor mount options

[whiplash willy]

DankNugs,

That is cool you have access to a shop like that to do your own work! I no longer have time, nor do my friends, to do the larger mait jobs on my car anymore (Married + 15mo old!)

Your description in post 34 makes total sense though on the source of the noise.

I revived an on old thread on the R32 forum about the same issue, and alot of those guys experience the clunk, and also believe it is DMF related:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...1#post79057601

It would still be good to hear from some people who did SMF conversions though!

[DankNugz]

Wheather I go with the SMF or keep the stock flywheel, I do plan on doing the clutch and almost everything else on this car myself, with the exception of the timing belt, because when I saw the belt routing I almost cried lol.

I would not do the clutch if I didn't have access to a lift, and yes I am very lucky I have that now that I don't work on cars for a living anymore.

I just came up with a perfect example of how to reproduce the symptom on my way home from work. Accelerate hard in 2nd gear(getting to at least 2500 rpm) and let off the gas pedal quickly. The front end drops from the drop in torque, then immediately after that I felt a slight clunk and it happens all the time, but I have just gotten used to it.

I thought "huh it feels like my engine is bouncing off springs when changing from accel to decel"

Well, it is on springs, the springs in the DMF.

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[whiplash willy]

I just came up with a perfect example of how to reproduce the symptom on my way home from work. Accelerate hard in 2nd gear(getting to at least 2500 rpm) and let off the gas pedal quickly. The front end drops from the drop in torque, then immediately after that I felt a slight clunk and it happens all the time, but I have just gotten used to it.

I'll try that on my way home...

So lets just say it the clunk is from the DMF. Is it normal? Or if it is a symptom of a failing DMF, say one that has excessive play in it? Unfortunately the only way I know of to check for DMF play, is to remove the starter, and check the DMF through that hole in the bell housing. But I dont know how accurately it can be checked that way.

Example of checking for play through starter hole:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaNY1nqd7i8

Here is a vid that shows a worn vs new DMF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO07u4_sU6M

I know there is a way to measure it by degrees of rotation (like less then X degrees of movement is good) but i think you need to pull the DMF for that. I remember reading somewhere that others measured it by marking each mass and measuring the mm of movement, but I don't know the details on that.

[BsickPassat]

034 Motorsports has "solid rubber" mounts.

Tried... BSH mounts.... hated them. I have 40,000 miles on them and hate every mile of it. when it;s time for a clutch change, stock mounts are going in.

Black Forest Industries used to offer "Street" bushings for their mounts, which were still poly, but a slightly harder durometer than the stock rubber. They stopped offering them quickly as somehow they felt it was not worth the expense of offering it.

[whiplash willy]

034 Motorsports has "solid rubber" mounts.

Tried... BSH mounts.... hated them. I have 40,000 miles on them and hate every mile of it. when it;s time for a clutch change, stock mounts are going in.

Black Forest Industries used to offer "Street" bushings for their mounts, which were still poly, but a slightly harder durometer than the stock rubber. They stopped offering them quickly as somehow they felt it was not worth the expense of offering it.

I have heard bad things about the 034 mounts wearing out early. Plus the 034 mounts require you to remove the subframe and press them in.... My HPA 75a Red mount is actually starting to get to the point where I may be able to live with it. Really it only rattles at idle when it is around 800rpm. When my idle is at 900 it is barley noticeable, and when at is at 1000rpm during regen, there is no vibrations. It does have a very slight vibe, which is barley noticeable when you are getting close to lugging as well. The only other time it is noticeable is the harsh noise my engine makes during startup, which is hard to describe. Also, my wife didn't notice any NVH in the car either, however she wouldn't notice if I painted my car yellow!

I am going to try to increase my idle to 900rpm, and see if that helps, but if not, the current rattle at 800rpm idle is enough to make me want to go back to stock, however pressing in the stock mount is MUCH harder then removing it, which is a PITA! I spent 6 hours over the weekend trying to press the stock mount back in, and failed! I ended up breaking the plastic ring around the stock mount (There goes $60). HPA says they have been able to push in the stock lower mount without having to remove the subframe, and one of their techs is going to give me advice on how to do it.

HPA does have awesome customer service, and I wouldn't hesitate buying anything from them in the future! I would say their 75a Red mount (once broken in) does vastly improve the response and feeling of the car when starting from a stop, and when shifting above 2500rpm. I am just really sensitive to vibes. So performance wise, their mount is a great improvement over stock, and easy to press in and remove (If only the stock one was that easy).

As far as NVH on a TDI, I would say for people who aren't super sensitive to vibes, the increase in performance may be worth the startup noises and vibes at low idle. For the 2.5 and 2.0 TSI, im sure those engines are much smoother then the TDI, and there would probley be little to no additional NVH, in my opinion.

However, think long and hard before you remove your stock dogbone mount, because it really is a huge PITA to get back in, and it is possible you may even have to drop your subframe to get the $60 stock one back in!

[DankNugz]

I have heard bad things about the 034 mounts wearing out early. Plus the 034 mounts require you to remove the subframe and press them in.... My HPA 75a Red mount is actually starting to get to the point where I may be able to live with it. Really it only rattles at idle when it is around 800rpm. When my idle is at 900 it is barley noticeable, and when at is at 1000rpm during regen, there is no vibrations. It does have a very slight vibe, which is barley noticeable when you are getting close to lugging as well. The only other time it is noticeable is the harsh noise my engine makes during startup, which is hard to describe. Also, my wife didn't notice any NVH in the car either, however she wouldn't notice if I painted my car yellow!

I am going to try to increase my idle to 900rpm, and see if that helps, but if not, the current rattle at 800rpm idle is enough to make me want to go back to stock, however pressing in the stock mount is MUCH harder then removing it, which is a PITA! I spent 6 hours over the weekend trying to press the stock mount back in, and failed! I ended up breaking the plastic ring around the stock mount (There goes $60). HPA says they have been able to push in the stock lower mount without having to remove the subframe, and one of their techs is going to give me advice on how to do it.

HPA does have awesome customer service, and I wouldn't hesitate buying anything from them in the future! I would say their 75a Red mount (once broken in) does vastly improve the response and feeling of the car when starting from a stop, and when shifting above 2500rpm. I am just really sensitive to vibes. So performance wise, their mount is a great improvement over stock, and easy to press in and remove (If only the stock one was that easy).

As far as NVH on a TDI, I would say for people who aren't super sensitive to vibes, the increase in performance may be worth the startup noises and vibes at low idle. For the 2.5 and 2.0 TSI, im sure those engines are much smoother then the TDI, and there would probley be little to no additional NVH, in my opinion.

However, think long and hard before you remove your stock dogbone mount, because it really is a huge PITA to get back in, and it is possible you may even have to drop your subframe to get the $60 stock one back in!

What is NVH again?

Im definately not getting a press in mount, and not messing with taking the stock one out. Im probably going to try out the BFI 70a insert and if I don't like that (from what you said, if you can deal with the 75a press in one like you said, I should be able to deal with the insert no problem) I can just spend 20 bucks and get that autotech "insert bracket". Hell I may be able to make one the same as theirs, but 20 bucks is a good deal.

Im fine with feeling my engine a little more, I just don't want to be rattled out of my drivers seat along with all my interior screws.

To press in that mount, I have a feeling a wheel bearing press set(not cheap, but im sure you can rent one somewhere) may be able to pull that off with the subframe still in.

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[whiplash willy]

What is NVH again?

Im definately not getting a press in mount, and not messing with taking the stock one out. Im probably going to try out the BFI 70a insert and if I don't like that (from what you said, if you can deal with the 75a press in one like you said, I should be able to deal with the insert no problem) I can just spend 20 bucks and get that autotech "insert bracket". Hell I may be able to make one the same as theirs, but 20 bucks is a good deal.

Im fine with feeling my engine a little more, I just don't want to be rattled out of my drivers seat along with all my interior screws.

To press in that mount, I have a feeling a wheel bearing press set(not cheap, but im sure you can rent one somewhere) may be able to pull that off with the subframe still in.

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NVH is Noise Vibration Harshness.

Yea, although the mount feels nice, the rattling drives me crazy! I just hope the few rattles that have developed since the poly mount has been installed will go away once I go back to stock! I really dont' want to have to remove the subframe, that would really suck! I also don't want to have to try pressing in the stock mount again for another 6 hours, just to fail again....I am going to take it in to a local guru and see if they can do it without dropping the subframe, and how much they will charge. This was quite the expensive mistake!

$200 for Mount + $60 For Oem Mount that I broke + Another $60 for the 2nd OEM mount on order..... Plus time. And possibly more if the Guru installs it... At this point I would pay another $500 just to get it back to stock, and not have to deal with it anymore....

Its really too bad the HPA mount has vibes at idle. If only it didn't vibe at idle, I would perfer it to stock....

[GASDAG]

At this point I would pay another $500 just to get it back to stock, and not have to deal with it anymore....

LOL sounds like me with my cheap $499 coilovers... Luckily I found local help to remove them and was able to sell them at a huge loss. "If I had known then what I know now..." Sounds like my TDI mounts are staying stock!

[DankNugz]

$500 coilovers sound like a horrible idea to begin with lol. That's why I asked on vortex, so I wouldn't regret past lack of knowledge.

NVH is Noise Vibration Harshness.



Yea, although the mount feels nice, the rattling drives me crazy! I just hope the few rattles that have developed since the poly mount has been installed will go away once I go back to stock! I really dont' want to have to remove the subframe, that would really suck! I also don't want to have to try pressing in the stock mount again for another 6 hours, just to fail again....I am going to take it in to a local guru and see if they can do it without dropping the subframe, and how much they will charge. This was quite the expensive mistake!



$200 for Mount + $60 For Oem Mount that I broke + Another $60 for the 2nd OEM mount on order..... Plus time. And possibly more if the Guru installs it... At this point I would pay another $500 just to get it back to stock, and not have to deal with it anymore....



Its really too bad the HPA mount has vibes at idle. If only it didn't vibe at idle, I would perfer it to stock....

Yes that is a lot of money just on a stupid motor mount that didn't even fix the problem that prompted you to get it.

If you weren't on the other side of the country I'd say come by my house, my roommate just bought an on car wheel bearing press set last week. Im almost certain that would work to get the stock mount back in place.

I may be able to deal with your rattle at idle, but im not going to risk taking the stock mount out, it just sounds like a bad idea from your story.

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[whiplash willy]

$500 coilovers sound like a horrible idea to begin with lol. That's why I asked on vortex, so I wouldn't regret past lack of knowledge.



Yes that is a lot of money just on a stupid motor mount that didn't even fix the problem that prompted you to get it.

If you weren't on the other side of the country I'd say come by my house, my roommate just bought an on car wheel bearing press set last week. Im almost certain that would work to get the stock mount back in place.

I may be able to deal with your rattle at idle, but im not going to risk taking the stock mount out, it just sounds like a bad idea from your story.

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Thanks DankNugs, I would totally take you up on your offer, If I was closer....

Hopefully I can get the stock dogbone mount in soon, although once I do, I am sure I will stop worrying about idle vibration, and go back to worrying about this clunk!

[DankNugz]

So I just ordered my BFI yellow(70a) insert, I hope it feels as good as I expect it to.

That not only explains what I thought was the loose dogbone mount, but also addresses the vibration I have always gotten under low gear, high load situations. It almost feels like an axel inbalance, but I bet you its just the DMF hitting the second stage and transferring the torsional vibration to the car instead of dampening it.

Since we're on the topic of the DMF, I wanted to ask you guys about the vibration I feel during hard acceleration. It has always been there, but seemed to get worse lately, and it got way worse after I swapped out wheels (went from stock TDI wheels with 225/45/17 Continental ContiProContact DWS to 225/40/18 Eagle F1 tires on MK5 huffs). Granted, the tires on the new wheels are old (built in 08) and have a considerable amount of road noise, but this shaking is bad during hard accel.

It seems to be worst in 4th gear, starting at about 2000 rpm, with the pedal almost to the floor. As soon as I mash the gas, the steering wheel starts shaking violently (like it makes me want to let off the gas) and smoothes out around 25-2700 rpm. If I let off the gas early, it instantly stops shaking. I can deal with how it felt with the stock wheels on, but if I get new tires and its still this bad, I don't know if I will keep the huffs or not because it is a pretty scary shake.

It is definately not a tire imbalance. My stock wheels were a little out of balance, and I dealt with it because thats what I get for a free mount and balance. As soon as I mounted the huffs, the vibration from the tire imbalance went away and all the sudden my steering wheel shakes violently from accelerating? I don't buy that the wheels are the cause, I think they just make it more noticable.

From all our ideas about this DMF, I attributed that to the steering wheel shake(not too bad) with the stock wheels. Now I am afraid that maybe this is a sign of the DMF starting to fail? I hope not

[GASDAG]

Yeah that sounds weird. I also went to 18x8's with 225/40/18 kumho max summer tires, and even with free lifetime balances and 3-4 rebalancings at discount tire over a 2 month period, I could never get them balanced and eliminate the steering wheel vibration at highway speed 60+ mph.
Put stock wheels back on with 225/45/17 goodyear assurance fuel max (which is what we want for a tdi, duh) and new tires on stock wheels = zero vibration and 45mpg hwy for me. Sold the 18's with the summer tires.

If you are ONLY feeling vibration at a certain ENGINE speed, and not VEHICLE speed, then I think your issue may be deeper. Whether it's all the way at the clutch/flywheel, axle, hub, any of that who knows... I would suggest putting stock wheels back on and having the dealer look at it, assuming you are not too modded to hell and into warranty-voided land. take the tech on a test drive with you to recreate the issue. i found on more than one warranty repair issue, the tech could not recreate the issue I brought it in for, and luckily I could recreate it for him, and got it fixed under warranty.

[DankNugz]

Yeah that sounds weird. I also went to 18x8's with 225/40/18 kumho max summer tires, and even with free lifetime balances and 3-4 rebalancings at discount tire over a 2 month period, I could never get them balanced and eliminate the steering wheel vibration at highway speed 60+ mph.
Put stock wheels back on with 225/45/17 goodyear assurance fuel max (which is what we want for a tdi, duh) and new tires on stock wheels = zero vibration and 45mpg hwy for me. Sold the 18's with the summer tires.

If you are ONLY feeling vibration at a certain ENGINE speed, and not VEHICLE speed, then I think your issue may be deeper. Whether it's all the way at the clutch/flywheel, axle, hub, any of that who knows... I would suggest putting stock wheels back on and having the dealer look at it, assuming you are not too modded to hell and into warranty-voided land. take the tech on a test drive with you to recreate the issue. i found on more than one warranty repair issue, the tech could not recreate the issue I brought it in for, and luckily I could recreate it for him, and got it fixed under warranty.

I'm past warranty, I put a sh!t ton of miles on my car. Got 66k now. Only mods are short ram intake, and GTI style catback that deletes the sulfur cat and goes up to the exhaust throttle, the rest is aesthetics. It has always had a slight shake during any highway acceleration, and got worse at certain loads/rpms. For most of the time, I just convinced myself it was a diesel and it was normal. Now that I learned how the DMF works, it made sense that it was normal, but after installing these wheels, its right in my face and now I'm not quite sure what I am experiencing is normal.

I could go over to the dealer with the car as it sits, my local dealer has been very helpful and mod-friendly, and it may be worth the diag fee for peace of mind/certainty of what the problem really is. I have to think on this one.

[DankNugz]

http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedi..._zms_de_en.pdf

I found this. I don't know how much it applies to our specific flywheels, but it seems to be as much info as I'll ever need on dual mass flywheels.

Also, I just ran out for dinner, tried to make the shaking occur, and no dice. I ran up 1,2,3,4 and it was nice and smooth, no steering wheel shake. It only seems to happen when already at highway speeds. For example, I'm doing 60 stuck behind a truck and I hit 4th to pass him quickly, my steering wheel starts shaking so bad it feels like its gonna fall off. It happened at least 2 or 3 times during my driving today, and the car sits for 3 hours and its gone. This one will be fun to reproduce if I do decide to go to the dealer.

[GASDAG]

66k??? Wow. In ~one year? IM surprised its running at all with that kind of intensive use. 300 mi. daily commute? I have 22k and one year older. 15 mi. per day. Anyway what r u seeing going wrong w the car other than the vibration? With those miles that quickly maybe you should do a clutch & flywheel job just for the helluvit. Then enjoy the next 60k miles. what if u sell it in 2014 with 200k miles on it lol. I wonder what your hwy mpg is now that your engine is fully broken in. They say our engines aren't broken in until 60k, and mpg improves with more time and miles.

[DankNugz]

Currently 65223 and counting.

About 50k in 1 year. I use my car for work to travel all over pa to customers offices, I fix copy machines. I also use the car to go to my hometown in jersey at least once a month, but to put it in perspective, I claimed 38k work miles on my taxes last year.

Let me tell you, driving style is a much larger factor in mpg than break in is. I am just about "fully broken in" and I have noticed that its easier to get 40+ (it has been since about 30k), but after installing the catback and intake, I tend to beat on it a little more so my overall average is about 36-38 still. What I love about this car is that I can do 80mph all day long and still get 36-38 mpg. Apparently cylinder compression on diesels is supposed to go up untill it peaks out around 120k and that is fully broken in.

I was hoping to get 80-100k out of the factory clutch, but that remains to be seen I suppose.

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[GASDAG]

Yeah it's all about driving style. I went a couple weeks when I got the tdi and just romped on it and redlined it alot and averaged 29mpg. I was thinking 1) that sucks for a TDI but 2) damn I can still get 29 mpg beating the piss out of a car. If I did that in a V8 mustang I would get 5mpg.

Then last month I did a road trip to colorado, babied it the whole way, and averaged 45mpg for the whole trip. ~600 miles, ~100 of which I would say were not highway.
Anyway good luck with the drivetrain assessment. When things get that deep like I said I would definitely pay for a professional diagnosis.
So it's not technically a "work vehicle" but a vehicle that you use for work... i.e. you own it, pay the insurance etc, but the company reimburses you for the miles. I wonder about maintenance/repairs.

[DankNugz]

My company gives me a fixed amount, 325 a month + .18 cents a mile. At the end of the year, say the government rate is .55 cents a mile(that's what it was last year) I have the option of claiming the difference of what I got reimbursed for relative to the government rate, or I could claim the depreciation of the car+repairs and maintenence, whatever is greater. My roommates mom does my taxes and she said since the tdi holds its value so well, and I havnt put much into it (550 for tires and a total of about 300 in non warranty repairs) it makes more sense to claim the mileage.

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[GASDAG]

Wow that's more complicated than I could have ever imagined.

Let me try some math. Using your 38K work miles you claimed last year.

38,000 miles * $0.55/mile govt rate = $20,900



38,000 miles * $0.18/mile employer rate = $6,840

$325/month employer payment * 12 = $3,900

Total = $10,740


So your repairs, maintenance, and depreciation total would need to be greater than ($20,900 - $10,740) = $10,160 in order for you to go with the option of claiming maintenance/repairs. How do you calculate depreciation? KBB? Depreciation from brand new? Or did you buy used?


That $0.55 gov't rate freaking rocks

You would need major work to add up to $10k.
What about extending the warranty through VW? I saw some guy paying $2300 to make his bumper to bumper good for 10 year 100k miles. Granted you will be at 100k miles pretty quick now, I wonder if that would have made sense when you were hitting the 36k mark, if in fact you need a clutch/flywheel... Even that $2300 though wouldn't get close to the $10K gap you need to make up.

[DankNugz]

Well as far as just fuel goes, the guy I work with who also has a tdi said diesel would have to be 7+ bucks a gallon for us to loose money at $0.18 a mile, but considering that's supposed to cover maintinence and repairs, its a different story.

Im guessing kbb would be the way? I think they ask you for "market value" and that's the most accurate resource out there to calculate that.

Even if it depreciated 5000 in a year, I would still have to pay 5000 in repairs for it to make sense.

I did look into the extended warranty, the and that's the exact number my sales guy quoted me, and I just didn't feel that it was worth it. Its too late for that now anyway. They gave me up to a year or 36k to decide on the extended warranty.

Let's say the smf conversion costs me 1000 bucks with the clutch and all, and the DPF delete costs me 1500 total with the exhaust and tune. I would much rather spend the 2500 on that than replacing the same junk parts that they had from the factory, and once I get the DMF and DPF out of there, the only really big ticket item left is the HPFP, which I pray will be fine.


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[DankNugz]

DankNugs,

I just noticed some things last night about my Drivetrain movment/clunk.

1. The noise that is made during the clunk is barley autible, but can be heard with the windows down if I am next to a wall. It is the exact same noise as when I press in the clutch pedal quickly (Maybe just the noise of the TO Bearing contacting the clutch plate?

2. When I am on a road where I can reproduce the clunk, when coasting and lightly getting on/and off throttle.
It seems that no matter how slowly/lightly I press or lift off the throttle, I will get a clunk. IF I try quickly and heavily press or lift off the throttle, I get no clunk...I would have thought it would be the other way around. What do you think?

This kind of makes me think this clunk is a combo of the DMF and poor DBW programming. I remember you saying in the thread that you were looking into other issues caused by the DBW, could you give me any details on that, if they are realivant?

Thanks,

1. I have noticed that noise when going in or out on the clutch. It's most noticeable when I am not moving, next to a wall and I press in or let out the clutch with it in neutral, and I'm not quite sure if it's related to the "issue" we are experiencing because I have also heard that since day 1.

2. It happens all the time, it is just more pronounced under hard acceleration or deceleration. I engine brake a lot and I notice the drivetrain clunk all the time, it just feels really bad under certain circumstances, much like the vibration/shake I was talking about here and on tdiclub. There was a key part in the DMF video I believe you linked me to when they showed the "spring stop" that the secondary mass hits when it gets to the end of the second spring stage. I think in extreme moments of torque, the masses are hitting each other(radially) because the force created by the motor is stronger than both sets of springs. I have a feeling in my case that those springs may be starting to wear. It just feels a bit looser and almost bouncier, as far as the driveline goes.

As far as our clunk goes, I don't think the DBW programming would necessarily cause what we our experiencing, but it may be able to mitigate it with the right programing. I believe the clunk originates at the DMF, and while you may be able to hide it or lessen the symptom, it does not get at the root cause of the issue.

My DBW issue came to light when I installed the intake, and became even more pronounced after installing the catback. It is most noticeable when entering highways. Say I'm in 3rd gear maintaining speed around 1800-2000 rpm. If I give it full throttle, it bogs down for a second like it doesn't know what to do, and hits about 2200 and it's out like my VR6. In the same situation when applying part throttle to accelerate, it again acts like it doesn't know what to do, like its choosing weather to add more boost or let off. I was thinking that it has something to do with the variable geometry turbo and how the ecu controls it relative to pedal position, because that is about the engine speed that it would be changing the position of the exhaust vanes to achieve more boost at higher rpms. I am hoping that I can speak to Malone about this when I get the money together to get the downpipe and tune, but that may have to wait until I upgrade the clutch/flywheel now that I know about this. I think the ecu just needs to be tuned to the increased airflow, and for now its not quite sure what to do under certain conditions.

[whiplash willy]

What really confuses me though is why it happens more often, and the "clunk" feels more substantial when I am on a decline, and doesn't happen as often when on an incline.

I also don't understand why it will happen no matter how slowly or lightly press the accelerator during cruise, or how lightly and slow i lift off, but it seems to not happen as bad if I press and lift off the accelerator medium-hard.

Also, your reply to my #1 in the above post exactly describes the sound I am talking about.

ALso, one more thing, the movement/clunk seems to have more of a spring like feeling with my HPA mount, then with the stock mount, possibly because the extra movement the stock dogbone mount has dampened the spring like feeling better then the solid HPA mount.

Finally, hopefully this Thursday I will be back on my stock dogbone mount. After going through 2 oem mounts ($60 each!) Me and my local TDI Gurus have concluded it is impossible to press it back in with a standard press. THe plastic ring around the stock mount deforms as you press it in (Around the area of the dogbone cutout) and it is impossible to press in, unless you there is some kind of sleeve around it (Kind of like a piston ring compressor). If you look at VW's tool for this, it has a sold metal tube the mount goes in as it gets pressed in.

Our solution is to order a non vw oem spec replacement, for $30 that has a more solid outer ring that hopefully won't deform as they try to press it in! I am crossing my fingers this will work!

[whiplash willy]

I was finally able to download the PDF (luk failure diag..)that DankNugz posted, and read something interesting on page 20:

A clicking noise when engaging or shifting gears, and during
load changes, can originate in the power train, caused by
excessive gear clearance in the transmission, play in the
propeller/drive shafts or in the differential. The DMF is not
at fault

Also in my searching, I keep finding similar complaints that we are having with other auto manufactures that use DMFs, for example:

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...dmf-issue.html

It seems that in these threads I have come across there is always someone saying it is normal DMF behavior, but the people who say this are never addressed, and the thread dies without a solution. It is so hard for me to believe though that this horrible annoying clunk/movement is a normal side effect of the DMF, because who would ever be able to tolerate it?

[DankNugz]

So here is an interesting one. Last night, I went to install the BFI insert, and failed miserably. When pressing the insert into the mount, the insert pushes up the top section of the stock mount (where the threads for the bolt are) to the point where it is about 40 degrees crooked. My roommate went to install the bolt, not noticing the threads were that crooked, and majorly cross threaded the threads in the stock mount. After searching for a tap and die set that matched the threads of that bolt at a couple stores, we settled on buying a nut and bolt longer than the stock one to hold it in place. I ended up with a 1/2"-13 x 3" ( a standard thread bolt on a VW) long grade 8 bolt and nut. It was just long enough to hold the stock mount together without the insert installed. I plan on ordering another insert (I broke it pulling it out), but I also had to get to work this morning. On my long drive into work, I realized that with just the nut and bolt installed like that, my driveline "movement" had almost disappeared. Its not completely gone, but it feels much tighter than it was, and I was very surprised at that. If you are looking to tighten it up a little without adding ANY vibration, just installing a nut and bolt might be the solution. I would still like it to be a little tighter, that's why im ordering another insert and trying again. In retrospect, the trick to installing the insert would seem to be using a c clamp to press it in while holding the top side in place with the factory bolt still in the mount. Still havn't solved my shaking issue, but I also havn't tried changing out my fuel filter yet.

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[whiplash willy]

That sucks! If you ever want to replace that upper mount, you will have to drop your subframe. Those stock VW mounts are SUCH A PITA to put back in. Are you going to keep your top mount like that, or replace it? ECS tuning actually has a vid of how to install their mount (same design)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH7MhZvSklE

I took my stock lower mount into a TDI guru, and even they couldn't press it in because the plastic ring deforms around the cutout for the dogbone, and won't fit back in the subframe. The stock mounts are actually bigger then the hole in the subframe.... They ordered me another brand stock mount (lemforder), in hopes that it may have a stronger plastic ring around the mount that wouldn't deform, however when I compare the stock and lemforder, the plastic rings are about the same strength, and diameter, so I am worried they won't be able to press it in as well.

Seriously, am I going to have to take it in to VW, so they can use their special press for these mounts, and have them drop my subframe, costing me $100s, plus they would probley screw my subframe alignment up....What a F'ing nightmare!!!!! I don't know how much longer I can live with the rattles/vibes from the HPA mount. I am almost considering driving 12 hours to HPA's headquarters, and making them install my stock mount back in for me, since they are the only ones I know of who can do it without removing the subframe...

[DankNugz]

After hearing your story, im not messing with removing/replacing the stock mount, just sounds like a bad idea from your experience. I will try to re tap the threads when the time comes (when my new insert arrives), but I don't have too much confidence that that will work with the mount still in place. I will probably keep the 1/2 inch nut and bolt setup, and just go with a bit longer bolt, if I can find one (my local pep boys didn't have sh!t, and lowes only had 3" or 4" to choose from and im thinking I need a 3.5" to fit perfectly). I would go back to HPA and make them do it free of charge. After all the time and money you have spent trying to get it back to stock, I would hope they understand that you bought a product expecting 1 thing, and you got another, and your not happy with it. If you were to buy a stock mount, it is not unreasonable for you to ask them to press it in once you tell them your story.

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[DankNugz]

Also, if you do happen to go to the dealer, they should align your car for free if they end up with it out of alignment due to dropping the subframe. My dealer had to drop the subframe to replace my dpf, and they told me it had a pull after they reinstalled everything so they did an alignment free of charge.,

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[whiplash willy]

This weekend I got fed up, with the HPA mount, and trying to get the stock lower mount pressed in, and I ended up cutting a 1mm gap int the pastic ring, so the mount would depress itself enough for it to be pressed in. My upper subframe dogbone mount/bushing was never messed with, so it is in there good. The lower one appears to be sitting in there well (and is bolted to the upper one at 100nm, as per VWs spec). Finally my car feels back to normal again, and it is a pleasure to drive...

However, I am worried that because I cut the lower mount, that it may not be doing it's job as well as it was designed to, and may be causing more engine movement then the car was designed to handle, and therefore could be causing strain on other components. Basically the lower mount is not longer as tight against the subframe as it should be.

I took videos of how the engine moves now during startup and after throwing a few revs at it. Does this seem like normal engine movement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT3IqwzjR7g&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlg5CFaRPhc


My only option now is to take my car into VW, have them drop my subframe, and press in a new upper and lower mount/bushing. I have no idea how much this will cost, plus I don't know what they could screw up as a result of them lowering my subframe, plus I am sure they won't replace the TTY bolts... But maybe it is fine as it is, what do you guys think?

[ToeBall]

This weekend I got fed up, with the HPA mount, and trying to get the stock lower mount pressed in, and I ended up cutting a 1mm gap int the pastic ring, so the mount would depress itself enough for it to be pressed in. My upper subframe dogbone mount/bushing was never messed with, so it is in there good. The lower one appears to be sitting in there well (and is bolted to the upper one at 100nm, as per VWs spec). Finally my car feels back to normal again, and it is a pleasure to drive...

However, I am worried that because I cut the lower mount, that it may not be doing it's job as well as it was designed to, and may be causing more engine movement then the car was designed to handle, and therefore could be causing strain on other components. Basically the lower mount is not longer as tight against the subframe as it should be.

I took videos of how the engine moves now during startup and after throwing a few revs at it. Does this seem like normal engine movement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT3IqwzjR7g&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlg5CFaRPhc


My only option now is to take my car into VW, have them drop my subframe, and press in a new upper and lower mount/bushing. I have no idea how much this will cost, plus I don't know what they could screw up as a result of them lowering my subframe, plus I am sure they won't replace the TTY bolts... But maybe it is fine as it is, what do you guys think?

That moves less than my TDI and I've got a BFI insert in it. I think you're ok. As far as what else they can screw up, could be a whole lot of things, though I doubt it's likely. The one that does bother me is that the time I did lower my subframe doing the front swaybar, I picked up a suspension clunk which is cause by the subframe shifting around. This is very common on Mk5's though I've been unable to fix it long term.

[whiplash willy]

I just found out that when you buy a new Subframe from VW, it comes with both the upper and lower mounts pressed in already. I think I will just do that, and swap subframes, and be done with this mess! Yea it is expensive, but it is the only I can figure out how to have correctly pressed in OEM mounts again, without VW's special press and adapters. This whole ordeal has been a colossal waste of time and money.

http://keffervwparts.com/parts/2012/...iagram=9274260

I wouldn't have to unbolt any suspension pieces (just the plate that connects the two, so hopefully that won't cause any issues or clunks. My only concern is how to make sure the new subframe is lined up properly, but there isnt' much documentation on that.

Just this piece:

[DankNugz]

I just found out that when you buy a new Subframe from VW, it comes with both the upper and lower mounts pressed in already. I think I will just do that, and swap subframes, and be done with this mess! Yea it is expensive, but it is the only I can figure out how to have correctly pressed in OEM mounts again, without VW's special press and adapters. This whole ordeal has been a colossal waste of time and money.

http://keffervwparts.com/parts/2012/...iagram=9274260

I wouldn't have to unbolt any suspension pieces (just the plate that connects the two, so hopefully that won't cause any issues or clunks. My only concern is how to make sure the new subframe is lined up properly, but there isnt' much documentation on that.

Just this piece:

Don't bother, your mount looks fine. Using the bolt as a reference point, your biggest concern is radial movement, which looks fine from the video you posted. By doing what you did to get that mount in, I would expect that any issue would manifest itself in axial movement(again, relative to the plane of the bolt), which should be held together by the bolt anyway. As long as you can't freely pull the mount out with the dogbone and bolt removed, I think you'll be fine.

If you replace the subframe (completely unnessesary imo) you will then run the risk of loosing your alignment and having subframe shift causing suspension noises. If you go that route, just remember that every bolt that holds that piece in place is a stretch bolt and MUST be replaced or you will get subframe movement.

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[whiplash willy]

That moves less than my TDI and I've got a BFI insert in it. I think you're ok. As far as what else they can screw up, could be a whole lot of things, though I doubt it's likely. The one that does bother me is that the time I did lower my subframe doing the front swaybar, I picked up a suspension clunk which is cause by the subframe shifting around. This is very common on Mk5's though I've been unable to fix it long term.

Luckily, I wouldn't have to remove as much stuff as if I were going to install a sway bar, but I would hate to swap this part out just to introduce subframe clunk

[whiplash willy]

Don't bother, your mount looks fine. Using the bolt as a reference point, your biggest concern is radial movement, which looks fine from the video you posted. By doing what you did to get that mount in, I would expect that any issue would manifest itself in axial movement(again, relative to the plane of the bolt), which should be held together by the bolt anyway. As long as you can't freely pull the mount out with the dogbone and bolt removed, I think you'll be fine.

If you replace the subframe (completely unnessesary imo) you will then run the risk of loosing your alignment and having subframe shift causing suspension noises. If you go that route, just remember that every bolt that holds that piece in place is a stretch bolt and MUST be replaced or you will get subframe movement.

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DankNugs, that does make me feel better. Although the lower mount looks like it is in there good, if I removed the bolt and dogbone, I could pull it out by hand. I think I am going to wait on this and do a little more research/thinking about swapping the subframe. I should be fine in the short term as it is. I am getting tired of spending so much time on this car, I need a break so I can get other things done....

Any luck with your high speed shaking/vibration?

[DankNugz]

No, still havn't found any more info. It seems to be less prevalent lately, which is good, but I do still have a light shake. Im going to have my winter wheels rebalanced just to rule out that as the cause and reassess when I mount those in a month or 2. Im going to wait on the fuel filter till my next oil change just to keep the maintinence schedule of doing a fuel filter every other oil change.

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[DankNugz]

DankNugs,

I found another thread with someone having a similar issue as you. He hasn't found a solution yet, but it seems he has checked/tested just about everything. It may be of some help, probley worth a read:

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/forum/f...shaking-14546/

--Andy

I just looked over the whole thread, and it sounds pretty darn close to what I am experiencing. Looks like his issue is still ongoing as well, so im hoping he will respond to my comments soon. I created a username on that site, kwiktdi, just letting you know so theres no confusion.

My name is Merritt BTW, I continue to get a little chuckle every time you address me as DankNugz. It's an old username that was created when smoking weed was more important to me than getting a paycheck lol. I have since gotten older and wiser, but I didn't wanna make a new username out of fear of looking like a noob.