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    Thread: APR Presents The BFGoodrich MaxR! -- Build Thread --

    1. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      05-17-2012 09:29 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi View Post
      engine build looks similar to mine with the exception of the CNCd head. JC and i should go work for APR. you guys would then wouldnt have to worry about Stasis and the tricks up their sleeves.
      lol, yeah, ughhh nooo to the second part in every possible way imaginable.
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      05-17-2012 09:50 PM #52


      makes me want to rip my **** apart and change a few things up...

      would u guys consider selling the flapper delete pieces?

    3. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      05-17-2012 09:56 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by donjuan1jr View Post


      makes me want to rip my **** apart and change a few things up...

      would u guys consider selling the flapper delete pieces?
      Yes, working on a production kit.
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      05-18-2012 05:36 PM #54
      The BFGoodrich MaxR is at SOWO this weekend. Here's a sneak peek of some testing we did on the BFGoodrich Tires G-Force Sport Comp 2s.

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    5. 05-19-2012 01:58 AM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      There are many differences.
      Can you tellme about it.

      Here in Mexico Audi sell the S3 but VW don't going to sell the Golf R. I'm interested in a build like that.

    6. Member BETOGLI's Avatar
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      05-19-2012 08:54 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by CLestat View Post
      Can you tellme about it.

      Here in Mexico Audi sell the S3 but VW don't going to sell the Golf R. I'm interested in a build like that.
      You're right man, but if you want to buy an Audi S3 you would have to wait 6 months for it to be delivered... LOL

      Also what it sucks it's that here in Mexico the VW Passat and the CC aren't going to be equipped with 4Motion any more.

    7. 05-19-2012 09:53 PM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by BETOGLI View Post
      You're right man, but if you want to buy an Audi S3 you would have to wait 6 months for it to be delivered... LOL

      Also what it sucks it's that here in Mexico the VW Passat and the CC aren't going to be equipped with 4Motion any more.
      S3 2008 + APR Stage 3

    8. Member BETOGLI's Avatar
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      05-19-2012 10:24 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by CLestat View Post
      S3 2008 + APR Stage 3
      FTW!

      I'm going to be selling my VW Jetta GLI DSG 2007 with APR Stage III (with Garrett 2871R). If you're interested let me know man!

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      05-19-2012 11:00 PM #59
      Mother of god This is a sick, sick build. Basically everything I could think of if I had an "unlimited funds build". You guys have an end goal in mind as far as power goes?

    10. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      05-31-2012 04:19 PM #60
      With the motor built with strengthened, lightened and balanced internals, and the transmission upgraded with a new limited slip differential, it’s time to put it’s time to install the flywheel and clutch and put it back together so we can begin installing the APR Turbocharger System!

      For this build we went with a DXD Stage III Endurance Clutch System as found here:
      http://www.goapr.com/products/dxdclu...id=20tfsitrans



      The Stage III Endurance system is designed for road racing. It’s able to hold quite a bit of torque due to the increased clamping force of the pressure plate and the increased coefficient of friction on the Kevlar disc. The pressure plate makes the clutch pretty heavy at these levels, but since this is a racing clutch, the increase was expected and welcomed and will hold more torque than we need.



      The flywheel is also upgraded with a DXD single mass steel design that’s made from hot rolled low carbon steel. It’s resistant to warping and perfectly suited for the disc’s friction materials. The lightweight flywheel will eliminate rotating mass attached to the engine, freeing up a little more power. At idle there is an increase in sound from the clutch system that may not sound normal if you’ve never experienced the difference between a dual and single mass flywheel, however there’s not reason to be concerned as it’s completely normal.









      We also took this opportunity to begin installing the VWR Short Shifter. The short shifter is not extreme by any means, but it comes with all the parts necessary to install and go and cleans up the shifts just enough to make a good difference without going overboard. You can find out more info about it here: http://www.goapr.com/products/short_...vwr_vaga5.html





      Last edited by Arin@APR; 05-31-2012 at 04:25 PM.
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      06-20-2012 05:16 PM #61
      The Golf R comes equipped with a Borg Warner K04 turbocharger right from the factory, which happens to be an excellent turbocharger. It’s this turbo which gives the Golf R such a big power boost over the base level 2.0T found in the GTI and GLI MK5 and MK6. During our tuning exercises, it wasn’t difficult to get over 300 HP out of the stock turbo with only software. Adding the necessary bolt-ons such as our RSC turboback exhaust, VWR Intake System, APR High Pressure Fuel Pump and APR Intercooler, we were well on our way to making serious power but ultimately we were limited by the turbocharger unit’s size.

      The one thing we really like about the factory turbo is the response it gives in the lower RPM’s. Turbocharger spool is very quick but the power at redline dies off as the small turbo is not able to efficiently produce the airflow numbers necessary for big power. Over the years we’ve tested several different turbocharger systems on the 2.0T from the GT2860RS to the GT3076R Turbocharger. The smaller units offer lightening fast spool while the bigger units offer big top end power. If we were after a car that’s only to be used in a straight line, we’d go with a large turbocharger and call it a day, but this is the MaxR; an AWD beast that’s driven daily. Spool is very important.

      Enter the GTX2867R Turbocharger from Garrett Honeywell:



      The GTX2867R is a new turbocharger unit from Garrett that offers a lightweight billet compressor wheel with next generation geometry for extremely fast turbocharger spool and high-end airflow numbers. It’s able to spool very quickly while still offering the headroom necessary for top end power as we cross 7000 RPM.



      Another key feature to the new turbocharger unit is the use of an anti-surge compressor housing. The anti-surge housing allows us to spool the turbocharger very quickly, running high boost levels at low airflow levels, such as in the lower RPM range, to produce tons of power off the line without worry of running into dangerous levels of compressor surge. It’s truly amazing and the new design allows for this feature in a small and convenient package.




      We are using a T25 turbine to manifold connection with a smaller AR to help aid in turbocharger spool. After testing the differences between the larger and smaller AR, we chose to go with the smaller AR as the larger AR seemingly only added turbocharger lag with no measurable top end gains.

      We have also opted to use an internally gated wastegate setup. This allows us to use the factory N75 to control boost with the ECU just as if this turbo was intended to be on the engine from the factory. It adds a high level of precision and all the protection necessary to protect the engine should something go wrong.

      Now, don’t expect to just bolt one of these turbo on your Golf R and call it a day! The turbocharger unit will not fit without a new manifold, new exhaust, new oil and coolant lines, new turbo inline, new turbo outlet, boost and vacuum references lines, wastegate brackets and modifications to the PCV system. It will also not run correctly without software modifications. We’ll get to all of that in a bit when we discuss our Turbocharger System a little more in depth!
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    12. 06-20-2012 05:34 PM #62
      Excellent choice on the turbocharger.I see you guys are following my lead...

      This should be good for a bit more power than the GT2871R with better spool.

      Curious to see what it does.

    13. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      06-20-2012 05:53 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfRS View Post
      Excellent choice on the turbocharger.I see you guys are following my lead...
      We had a couple of these before they were released to the public.
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    14. 06-20-2012 05:56 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      We had a couple of these before they were released to the public.
      And who said i have a GTX2867 ?

      "Mine is larger".

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      06-20-2012 06:01 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfRS View Post
      And who said i have a GTX2867 ?

      "Mine is larger".
      So, how exactly are we following your lead?
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    16. 06-20-2012 06:08 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      So, how exactly are we following your lead?
      Well you are going the "engine efficiency way" instead of the huge turbo way.

      It contradicts the "American tuning school" theory of GOING BIG.

      Most of the U.S. guys tuning their cars just do rods and slap on a HUGE turbo, only
      to end up with a tiny powerband, wheel speed issues, hardware failures, and actually
      ending up with a SLOWER car all around.

      I've always been a firm believer of upgrading the N/A side of the engine thus helping the
      turbo side to make some more power more efficiently.

      The only disappointing thing is that you dropped out of the cams upgrade which would have helped
      the setup even more.And i know you are going to say again you saw no gains, but i don't buy that.
      You better than me know of you guys were not into it for the profit (which is understandable) you would be doing things A LOT differently.

      In any case, curious to see what this turbo does.Although APR's dynos are not really something you can set you watch to...Let's see how this goes....

    17. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      06-20-2012 06:14 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfRS View Post
      The only disappointing thing is that you dropped out of the cams upgrade which would have helped
      the setup even more.And i know you are going to say again you saw no gains, but i don't buy that.
      You better than me know of you guys were not into it for the profit (which is understandable) you would be doing things A LOT differently.
      The cams simply did not make a difference. Could they make a difference with a very large turbo? Maybe? I don't really know, but for all we tested, all of the hours we labored over it, all the back and forth making sets with Schrick, in the end we saw no gains, so we decided not to sell the product.

      If it was a matter of money, we would just charge more. The price is set by our costs.
      GoAPR.com | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Instagram
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      Address: APR LLC, 4800 US HWY 280 West, Opelika, AL 36801

    18. 06-20-2012 06:24 PM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      The cams simply did not make a difference. Could they make a difference with a very large turbo? Maybe? I don't really know, but for all we tested, all of the hours we labored over it, all the back and forth making sets with Schrick, in the end we saw no gains, so we decided not to sell the product.

      If it was a matter of money, we would just charge more. The price is set by our costs.
      So what you are saying is that Schrick made and is selling a product that costs 1500$ and makes ZERO power ? How can someone accept that ? Schrick is the TOP cam manufacturer in the world and they don't make stuff that "don't work". But i would be curious to see some of your cam research. Are the OEM cams the same as the Schricks ? Cause if the Schricks are more aggressive (which AFAIK the are) this would be the first time a more flowing camshaft makes that same power as an OEM one....I find that hard to believe.It would be way more believable to say "we (APR) don't want to have the hassle that comes with a modified head+ aftermarket cams, so we prefer to "lose" some power and keep the engine fail proof" than what you are saying now.

      Plus, a little birdie told me someone made 90whp on stage 2 cat cams. Dunno what their specs are, but since you worked with Schrick i would hope you went that far too on the profile...The way i see it, i don't want 90whp...Half of that would be awesome...

      Btw when i contacted Schrick about the gains from their cams they quoted 15 bhp gain on a STOCK engine...And Schrick isn't known to BS around (as most German companies don't).They would rather stay on the conservative side than to BS with results.

      So now you are telling me you made ZERO horsepower on a BT (or even K04) engine ?

      I don't buy that sry.

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      06-20-2012 06:45 PM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfRS View Post
      So what you are saying is that Schrick made and is selling a product that costs 1500$ and makes ZERO power ? How can someone accept that ? Schrick is the TOP cam manufacturer in the world and they don't make stuff that "don't work". But i would be curious to see some of your cam research. Are the OEM cams the same as the Schricks ? Cause if the Schricks are more aggressive (which AFAIK the are) this would be the first time a more flowing camshaft makes that same power as an OEM one....I find that hard to believe.It would be way more believable to say "we (APR) don't want to have the hassle that comes with a modified head+ aftermarket cams, so we prefer to "lose" some power and keep the engine fail proof" than what you are saying now.
      Shrick sells more aggressive cam profiles. I've yet to see any power claims by them.

      Plus, a little birdie told me someone made 90whp on stage 2 cat cams. Dunno what their specs are, but since you worked with Schrick i would hope you went that far too on the profile...The way i see it, i don't want 90whp...Half of that would be awesome...
      I had cat cams. They were garbage and I'll never work with cat ever again.

      Btw when i contacted Schrick about the gains from their cams they quoted 15 bhp gain on a STOCK engine...And Schrick isn't known to BS around (as most German companies don't).They would rather stay on the conservative side than to BS with results.

      So now you are telling me you made ZERO horsepower on a BT (or even K04) engine ?
      We tested every profile they had to offer as well as the profiles used by different seat supercopa teams we know and other cams on the market. We did not record a measurable gain with any of the setups, therefor, we canceled the program after over a year of research and development.

      After all of the research and development we conducted, all stage 4 builds going forward ran the stock cams.

      I don't buy that sry.
      Ok, well that's fine by me. I have cams sitting on the shelfs downstairs. Do you want them? I'll sell you a set. They don't make any more power.
      GoAPR.com | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Instagram
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    20. 06-20-2012 07:06 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      Shrick sells more aggressive cam profiles. I've yet to see any power claims by them.
      So now you are calling Schrick a fraud ? How did they react when you told them their cams make no power, and yet they sell them for an arm and a leg ? I would be really interested to know their answer, and even confront them about it...


      I had cat cams. They were garbage and I'll never work with cat ever again.
      Garbage or not, these were the gains i was told. I take it you question those gains too ?
      We are not discussing "quality of product" here, but rather quoted performance figures.
      If you had the cams that means you EXPECTED to see gains. And since Cat has developed these
      cams much less than a year ago, why did you go install cams you KNEW did not make any power ?
      Doesn't make sense does it ?? Hmmm....

      We tested every profile they had to offer as well as the profiles used by different seat supercopa teams we know and other cams on the market. We did not record a measurable gain with any of the setups, therefor, we canceled the program after over a year of research and development.
      You are forgetting something VERY important Arin, and that might explain what you are experiencing.
      First of all AFAIK the Schick cams are made specifically for the AXX, BWA engines, and not for the BHZ or similar "newer" engines.Even in their latest catalog the TFSI cams are meant for the earlier engines and not for the later ones. Now you may ask...why does that matter ? I'll tell you why.First of all, there is a BIG difference in compression. From old school tuning knowledge, cams (even in a N/A environment) need COMPRESSION to work. The more agressive a cam, the more compression is "needed" to make the same power, and still reap the benefits of a higher flowing cam.Changes in "effective compression" when using the Schricks might even hinder the newer lower compression engines.... On another note, the newer engines are already using a different exhaust camwhich might already give some of the gains the Schricks would. But the fact all of the above also take part, might make the Schricks seem to make the same power as the S3's...But not on the older higher compression engines.

      Overall, the cams Schrick makes are for the AXX, BWA and possibly the BPY engines and NOT for the
      newer low compression engines.Schrick for some reason hasn't included these engines in their catalog
      and there might be a reason for it.

      In any case, i will be installing the cams next week and timing them in myself. I will let you know if my finding match yours...

      After all of the research and development we conducted, all stage 4 builds going forward ran the stock cams.
      I'm sure your customers will be happy you did.

      Ok, well that's fine by me. I have cams sitting on the shelfs downstairs. Do you want them? I'll sell you a set. They make 0 HP.
      Well if they don't make ANY power, i'll take them off your hands for shipping costs only.How's that ?? I'm game.

      Orrrr....you don't really want to SELL ME a product that makes no power? . DO YOU ?
      That can't be what APR does....CAN IT ??

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      06-21-2012 08:04 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfRS View Post
      So now you are calling Schrick a fraud ? How did they react when you told them their cams make no power, and yet they sell them for an arm and a leg ? I would be really interested to know their answer, and even confront them about it...

      ?
      Proper Cam profile is prob the hardest moving target to get right for "Specfic" group of parts for good measurable gains. Apr kit group of parts are based on keeping high throttle response. This dosnt mean upgraded cams won't work it means that with there group of parts they didn't show any gains. Bob. G
      Read below about mine and other fsi stage 3 owners bad experience and poor results with APR and there Stage 3 Kits. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ge-3-dyno-runs
      Quote Originally Posted by jhines_06gli View Post
      I'd say you have nothing to worry about, but then again.....you are driving a modified VW. You have EVERYTHING to worry about!!!
      -J. Hines

    22. 06-21-2012 08:36 AM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by rracerguy717 View Post
      Proper Cam profile is prob the hardest moving target to get right for "Specfic" group of parts for good measurable gains. Apr kit group of parts are based on keeping high throttle response. This dosnt mean upgraded cams won't work it means that with there group of parts they didn't show any gains. Bob. G
      I'm still not buying it.

      If they had said we tested the cams and expected to see 30 bhp gain but only saw 10 so it's not worth it, then i would accept it.But dismissing a performance part altogether makes the company that makes it
      a fraud, and altogether defies some of the basic mechanic rules.

      So let's see APR technically explain why a higher lift/ duration cam didn't make more power than
      a FACTORY one. This TFSI engine must be a real mystery it seems...Defies all common sense.

    23. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      06-21-2012 11:41 AM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfRS View Post
      So now you are calling Schrick a fraud ? How did they react when you told them their cams make no power, and yet they sell them for an arm and a leg ? I would be really interested to know their answer, and even confront them about it...
      I've never EVER once called Schrick a fraud and never will. Currently they are one of the only cam manufacturers in the world who will ever receive my business. The scope of their engineering is amazing. Our contacts, who've visited our facility are intelligent and knowledgable. The costs of their camshafts are justified by the costs associated with creating and quality controlling each item.

      You are forgetting something VERY important Arin, and that might explain what you are experiencing.
      First of all AFAIK the Schick cams are made specifically for the AXX, BWA engines, and not for the BHZ or similar "newer" engines.Even in their latest catalog the TFSI cams are meant for the earlier engines and not for the later ones. Now you may ask...why does that matter ? I'll tell you why.First of all, there is a BIG difference in compression. From old school tuning knowledge, cams (even in a N/A environment) need COMPRESSION to work. The more agressive a cam, the more compression is "needed" to make the same power, and still reap the benefits of a higher flowing cam.Changes in "effective compression" when using the Schricks might even hinder the newer lower compression engines.... On another note, the newer engines are already using a different exhaust camwhich might already give some of the gains the Schricks would. But the fact all of the above also take part, might make the Schricks seem to make the same power as the S3's...But not on the older higher compression engines.
      We've tested them at the stock BWA compression levels. I don't recall seeing a notable difference with the S3 cams either. I even have a set on my car that was used for testing.

      Quote Originally Posted by GolfRS View Post
      So let's see APR technically explain why a higher lift/ duration cam didn't make more power than
      a FACTORY one. This TFSI engine must be a real mystery it seems...Defies all common sense.
      I'd like to speak with one of the engineers who worked closely on the project to get more of his opinions on this matter, but if I had to take a guess, the cams may not be the biggest bottleneck, and as such, modifying the cams may not make a big change until other areas are modified. Perhaps they work really well with a ported head that has an extremely high flowing turbo geared for ultimate top end power, but that's not what we're after in our applications.

      In our early days of testing we made several modifications to the engine at once and part of that equation included the cams. The data and theory seemed to support the cams and even at one point, compression changes were though to make a large difference in power. Through more more testing of individual components and groups of components at a time, we found what really made a difference in power.
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    24. 06-21-2012 02:14 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
      I've never EVER once called Schrick a fraud and never will. Currently they are one of the only cam manufacturers in the world who will ever receive my business. The scope of their engineering is amazing. Our contacts, who've visited our facility are intelligent and knowledgable. The costs of their camshafts are justified by the costs associated with creating and quality controlling each item.
      Fair enough, but all of the above also means they did their testing before releasing a set of cams (for a hefty price i might add) that should hold up to their reputation. Schrick is not an OEM replica company. They make PERFORMANCE parts, not "better quality OEM replacements" . If i had a company with such a reputation, trust me i wouldn't put out a set of costly cams only to be
      discovered down the road they make ZERO power and my customer just wasted his money.
      And don't take this the wrong way (or whatever) but i trust Schrick more than i trust APR.
      I agree the cost of a cam is directly related to the production and control costs, BUT if such costs are
      taken up by a serious company to make an aftermarket PERFORMANCE cam, i am pretty sure they did their research such a product would SELL...

      It's like saying APR made their intercooler, tested and saw it made ZERO difference to the factory unit, but kept selling it for a pretty penny just because they decided to make it anyway so wth...It doesn't work this way Arin, especially in your line of business.You make and R&D a product, determine its possible HP capabilities, calculate the production and other costs, and then take it to the market for profit. If the product makes ZERO power, you sell ZERO cams, and all your hard work (and money) goes down the drain. This is not how big companies are made....



      We've tested them at the stock BWA compression levels. I don't recall seeing a notable difference with the S3 cams either. I even have a set on my car that was used for testing.
      And once again what did Schrick say about your findings ? Why not share that too with us ?
      That would be interesting to know. No ?


      I'd like to speak with one of the engineers who worked closely on the project to get more of his opinions on this matter, but if I had to take a guess, the cams may not be the biggest bottleneck, and as such, modifying the cams may not make a big change until other areas are modified. Perhaps they work really well with a ported head that has an extremely high flowing turbo geared for ultimate top end power, but that's not what we're after in our applications.
      Please do and let us know what he said.It is not a matter of "bottlenecking" with the cams.
      More duration and lift (and different cam timing i might add) improve the efficiency of the engine.
      It's all about how the N/A internal combustion engine works with a touch of "turbo difference" at least as far as the cams are concerned.I don't want to get into the details cause it is not something for this thread, but a good set of PROPERLY made cams can make a TON of difference in ANY motor.
      If you or anyone reads more into cam theory you can understand what i'm saying.And OF COURSE everything works together.A simple set of cams in an otherwise restricted engine isn't gonna make the HP a ported and full peripherals engine will. BUT this is a well known fact, ans this is why you leave cams for last, and not as a first engine mod.

      In our early days of testing we made several modifications to the engine at once and part of that equation included the cams. The data and theory seemed to support the cams and even at one point, compression changes were though to make a large difference in power. Through more more testing of individual components and groups of components at a time, we found what really made a difference in power.
      As i said it depends on what you want from your engine and what you are prepared to do to obtain it.
      You can make 500 whp with a simple rod/piston/big turbo swap, but the characteristics of your engine would REALLY SUCK.Or....you can develop the entire engine (spend considerably more cash) and make a car that is like a 5 liter N/A but with a turbo....THAT is what proper tuning is like (for me at least). So once you've reached the point the N/A side of your engine is almost fully developed, the last thing you can do is cams.And aftermarket performance cams (by definition) SHOULD give more performance than factory cams.And that is guaranteed by the reputation of the company that makes them.Be that Schrick...or APR....

    25. Member GTI2Slow's Avatar
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      06-21-2012 03:02 PM #75
      Arin, Just put him on your ignore list (I did long ago, I regret nothing.) and continue on with the awesome build thread!

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