Passat wagon vs. Jetta SW

[Hufeisen]

Just curious for some feedback if this was an option for some of you. I'm looking at both models - feedback appreciated.

[Outrider6]

My daily (soon to go to my son) is a B5.5 1.8T 5-speed Passat Wagon. It's a great car.

I get to drive two MKV/VI JSWs...a DSG TDI and a manual 2.0T... No complaints with either.

The wife has a 4M B6 wagon. She likes her car.

Hope that establishes some credibility. So here goes.

If you want a new VW wagon in the US, you're buying a JSW and you've got two choices that affect the drive: engine (TDI or 2.5 gasser) and transmission (manual or DSG).

They are both good engines. The 2.5 is the simpler engine, but the fuel mileage isn't as good as the TDI's. IMHO if the choice is about overall cost with long-term ownership, the 2.5 is the safer bet. If you're short-term...three and out, go TDI. But drive both, because your reaction to the engines matters. I'm also careful to use the gasser for short trips and the TDI for anything over half an hour. Diesels work best if they warm up, something they probably won't do on very short trips.

They are both good transmissions. Manual will surely be cheaper to maintain over its life. The DSG is way better than a slushbox like you find in nearly all of the Passats (some newer B6s have DSG vice Tiptronic). I prefer the DSG in traffic, the manual nearly anywhere else.

Going Used...

If you want 4Motion, you're going with a Passat. There were some older Passats with 4M and manual--these are really, really rare. All B6 4Ms and most B5.5 4Ms were automatics.

I like the B5.5 Passat's form factor a lot. It's slightly wider than the current JSW, with better passenger foot room and close to the same trunk size. I like the 1.8T engine over the V6 (which is not a VR6) and the manual is much better than the automatic. The downsides... they're old and they have a few maintenance issues that can bite you if they aren't kept up with.

The B6 Passat is a step up in size and in luxury from the B5.5 and from the Jetta... depending on how it's equipped, of course. (The wife's car is loaded.) Reminds me the most of our old E39 BMW wagon. Best rear passenger room for length. Width is a toss-up between the Passats, but both are definitely wider than the JSW.

If you're looking at a used JSW, get a gasser. The 2009 2.0T is a GTI with useful cargo space, but they are rare, but a hoot to drive and well worth the trouble of hunting down. The 2.5s depreciate much quicker than the TDIs. That doesn't make them a bad car, it makes them a great deal. Because all TDIs are pretty new and have high resale, I'd just buy a new TDI since they are so close in price to used TDIs.

[tulsaTDI]

They are both good engines. The 2.5 is the simpler engine, but the fuel mileage isn't as good as the TDI's. IMHO if the choice is about overall cost with long-term ownership, the 2.5 is the safer bet. If you're short-term...three and out, go TDI. But drive both, because your reaction to the engines matters. I'm also careful to use the gasser for short trips and the TDI for anything over half an hour. Diesels work best if they warm up, something they probably won't do on very short trips.

I think you might have gotten the two bolded lines backwards. (?)

For long term ownership, the diesel should be the choice because of long term fuel savings and durability.

I read the second bolded statement as "use the diesel for short trips, and gasser for long ones."
This is counter intuitive to me as the diesel needs time to warm up and then has better efficiency over the long haul.

[Outrider6]

I think you might have gotten the two bolded lines backwards. (?)

For long term ownership, the diesel should be the choice because of long term fuel savings and durability.

I read the second bolded statement as "use the diesel for short trips, and gasser for long ones."
This is counter intuitive to me as the diesel needs time to warm up and then has better efficiency over the long haul.

In my view, the current JSW's common rail diesel has yet to prove its durability. It has a fine heritage...previous VW diesels have been paragons of reliability. But those engines don't have the specific High Pressure Fuel Pump (HPFP) that current common rail TDI engines have.

HPFP changes are expensive for worn or failing units, but it's much worse if they do fail. Catastrophic HPFP failures have already occurred, requiring a replacement of the entire fuel system, which costs about $10K. Some of these failures are due to mis-fueling, but other failures seem to be unexplained. (Check the forums on other VW diesel sites for more info.)

The current TDI engine is more complex than the 2.5, since the 2.5 isn't using a turbo, nor an HPFP. The 2.5 does seem pretty reliable and has been around since about 2005, so there are high mileage examples floating around.

The fuel savings issue isn't as huge an advantage as you might think. Let's say a TDI gets 40 mpg and a 2.5 gasser gets 30 mpg. In 120,000 miles, the 2.5 burns 4,000 gal of fuel, but the TDI only burns 3000. That's 1000 gal in favor of the diesel, which is nice. But the actual fuel costs are different between the two and they do matter.

Use $4.00 per gal for regular unleaded and $4.25 for diesel. Fuel costs are $16,000 for the gas, 12,750 for diesel. It's $3250 cheaper for fuel, which is good, but... the TDI will cost more than a 2.5 will. If that acquisition cost is more than the fuel savings, where's the actual advantage? Though VW packaging complicates the comparison, you can buy a 2.5 for about $20K list, but the cheapest TDI is $25K. You're kidding yourself if you don't factor the diesel's higher acquisition cost (whatever it actually is) into the equation.

I really think that the maintenance will be the deciding factor in lifetime costs and that the TDI's complexity will erase the fuel savings due to maintenance needs. (Remember the diesel has an exhaust particulate filter that won't last forever.) The 2.5 is a simple, but modern, engine. It's powerful @ 170 Bhp. It does this with displacement, not with a high RPM blower sitting in a hot exhaust stream. A 2.5 can't blow a turbo it doesn't have.

Please don't take this as diesel bashing though. I own a TDI JSW. I simply bought it without the expectation that it would be radically cheaper to own than a gasser. I love the torque and I drive it like I stole it. (Not really, but I'm not hyper-mileing it either.)

You misread my text on using cars, but your intuition still gave you the right answer...sorry my writing wasn't more clear.

"I'm also careful to use the gasser for short trips..." means that I drive a gasoline fueled car on any short trips.

"... and the TDI for anything over half an hour" is my way of differentiating short from long, and says that I'll take the TDI if I think I'll be running the car constantly for half an hour or more.

"Diesels work best if they warm up, something they probably won't do on very short trips" reinforces both points.

Hope the clarifications make sense...

[Jedidub]

Having owned both my vote is for the jsw.

[Hufeisen]

Thank you for the feedback! Going to look around this weekend.

[Outrider6]

Having owned both my vote is for the jsw.

Nice, simple answer.

I think you're right based on the cars' age if nothing else. I find the B5.5 more comfortable, but I like all the things you can do with VCDS on the JSW. The JSW feels sportier, too, maybe because it's slightly smaller. The JSW's electronics are more modern and more capable. OTOH, it would be hard to pass on a low mileage B5.5 wagon that only costs $5-6K

I'm not so much of a B6 fan. They are nice, but some of the high end touches like the pushbutton parking brake and the pushbutton liftgate seem unnecessary and very un-VW-like. My wife also despises the key and complains about it constantly.

[wutbürger]

In my view, the current JSW's common rail diesel has yet to prove its durability. It has a fine heritage...previous VW diesels have been paragons of reliability. But those engines don't have the specific High Pressure Fuel Pump (HPFP) that current common rail TDI engines have.

HPFP changes are expensive for worn or failing units, but it's much worse if they do fail. Catastrophic HPFP failures have already occurred, requiring a replacement of the entire fuel system, which costs about $10K. Some of these failures are due to mis-fueling, but other failures seem to be unexplained. (Check the forums on other VW diesel sites for more info.)

The current TDI engine is more complex than the 2.5, since the 2.5 isn't using a turbo, nor an HPFP. The 2.5 does seem pretty reliable and has been around since about 2005, so there are high mileage examples floating around.

The fuel savings issue isn't as huge an advantage as you might think. Let's say a TDI gets 40 mpg and a 2.5 gasser gets 30 mpg. In 120,000 miles, the 2.5 burns 4,000 gal of fuel, but the TDI only burns 3000. That's 1000 gal in favor of the diesel, which is nice. But the actual fuel costs are different between the two and they do matter.

Use $4.00 per gal for regular unleaded and $4.25 for diesel. Fuel costs are $16,000 for the gas, 12,750 for diesel. It's $3250 cheaper for fuel, which is good, but... the TDI will cost more than a 2.5 will. If that acquisition cost is more than the fuel savings, where's the actual advantage? Though VW packaging complicates the comparison, you can buy a 2.5 for about $20K list, but the cheapest TDI is $25K. You're kidding yourself if you don't factor the diesel's higher acquisition cost (whatever it actually is) into the equation.

I really think that the maintenance will be the deciding factor in lifetime costs and that the TDI's complexity will erase the fuel savings due to maintenance needs. (Remember the diesel has an exhaust particulate filter that won't last forever.) The 2.5 is a simple, but modern, engine. It's powerful @ 170 Bhp. It does this with displacement, not with a high RPM blower sitting in a hot exhaust stream. A 2.5 can't blow a turbo it doesn't have.

Please don't take this as diesel bashing though. I own a TDI JSW. I simply bought it without the expectation that it would be radically cheaper to own than a gasser. I love the torque and I drive it like I stole it. (Not really, but I'm not hyper-mileing it either.)

You misread my text on using cars, but you still have the right answer...sorry my writing wasn't more clear.

"I'm also careful to use the gasser for short trips..." means that I drive a gasoline fueled car on any short trips.

"... and the TDI for anything over half an hour" is my way of differentiating short from long, and says that I'll take the TDI if I think I'll be running the car constantly for half an hour or more.

"Diesels work best if they warm up, something they probably won't do on very short trips" reinforces both points.

Hope the clarifications make sense...

This is one of the best 2.5 vs TDI explanations possible, and I share the exact same sentiment as a former CR TDI owner (who experienced a HPFP failure). Don't buy the CR TDI to save money- chances are you really won't in the long term. However it's a hoot to drive and it's pretty nice to still average 42+mpg even when cruising at 80+mph!

People continue to equate diesel = longevity. While you can't argue against the inherent strengths of diesel motor design and operation, the truth is the auxiliary devices necessary to make today's diesels "clean" are what worry me the most. The HPFP is just one aspect of it (and it sucks to see a nearly $10,000 bill for repair, trust me), however as stated then there is the DPF, numerous catalyst devices, numerous sensors for those devices, the list goes on.

I'm not stating that complexity = no reliability, but the fact is we can't simply blanket believe that the CR TDI's will be the diesels of yore with stellar reliability. Additionally, don't believe the "they've been used in taxis for years in Germany!" line that invariably will be thrown out- DPF's haven't been in mass use on the CR TDIs in Germany but for a few years and the emissions tuning/systems are vastly different between the two models.

With that said, it would be I5 for me all day long. As it is, I went back to a Subaru Outback after my Golf TDI HPFP failure; with a running average of 30.4mpg over its first 6,500 miles, my cost per month went up a whopping $50 (it's by no means nothing, but I'm fine with it) for fuel (that doesn't take into account much cheaper maintenance on the Subaru either). My point is not to bash either case, my point is for those considering diesel vs gas, truly do the math for your cost per mile operation and decide if its worth it. I absolutely loved the TDI torque, but it's pretty useless when it strands you and your wife in the middle of nowhere with a blown HPFP 280 miles into your current tank

Oh this was about Passat vs Sportwagen?

The Passat wagon (assuming B6) has slightly more head, leg, and shoulder room (we're talking 91cf of passenger space in the JSW and 97 in the passat)- also, there's about 4cf more cargo room in the Passat, however if my memory serves me correctly the "opening" for the trunk/hatch in the JSW was slightly larger and thus more friendly for opening. As mentioned the Passat wagon does have a power lift gate which can be nice (I don't need it), it also has rear sunshades build into the door panel, but beyond that its mostly design differences. I preferred the JSW drive as it just felt a bit "tighter" and sportier, not to mention the MK6 Golf interior found in the JSW is just nice to look at!

[darkcloud17]

I test drove both new back in 09 before purchasing my JSW.

My deciding points....

JSW had the panoramic sunroof, while the Passat did not.

JSW you could get leather, steering wheel radio controls, power/memory driver seat, homelink garage door opener and nicer rims(granted I got the SEL model that is no longer offered), Passat had none of those off the lot.

Passat is slightly larger. Could come in handy but didn't need the space.

Both had the 2.0T engine, JSW had the DSG tranny while the Passat just had the normal slush box

Both drove great. I felt the JSW was sportier and more nimble to drive. Got roughly the same mpg and was slightly more compact and easier for my wife to drive. She was sold at panoramic sunroof lol. I'm very happy with the decision looking back. Coming from a 06 325i to the JSW I was looking to keep some of the BMW flare while saving a buck or two. The JSW fell squarely into meeting those criteria.

[XM_Rocks]

Both had the 2.0T engine, JSW had the DSG tranny while the Passat just had the normal slush box

In 2010 the Passat Wagon came with the 2.0T and DSG.

[darkcloud17]

In 2010 the Passat Wagon came with the 2.0T and DSG.

I test drove them in June of 2009. The Passat was either a 09, maybe even a holdover 08. I don't remember, maybe it had DSG. Either way the other points decided the purchase more than the tranny(wife only drives auto).

[Outrider6]

Two points in favor of the B6 wagon...which I was reminded of this evening when our family of five was in my wife's PSW...

• The B6 is quieter inside than a JSW.

• The rear seat leg room is much better than in a JSW and the PSW is much better as a five seater than a JSW.

The DSG is much better than a standard automatic. That makes the '10 PSW the best choice among Passats if a manual isn't in the cards.

[XM_Rocks]

I test drove them in June of 2009. The Passat was either a 09, maybe even a holdover 08. I don't remember, maybe it had DSG. Either way the other points decided the purchase more than the tranny(wife only drives auto).

Just wanted to clarify.

In typical VW fashion they just showed up at dealerships with DSG. No announcement or fanfare.

[BsickPassat]

I read the second bolded statement as "use the diesel for short trips, and gasser for long ones."
This is counter intuitive to me as the diesel needs time to warm up and then has better efficiency over the long haul.

you read that backwards....

you really don't want to use the TDI for short trips because of the DPF. You need to get the DPF to get hot enough to get into self-regeneration mode. If you don't, the DPF will plug and the ECU will force a regeneration onto you.

[garethusa]

i didn't wait for the new passat wagon - which i would have bought if it was here....

and i outgrew the jetta wagon......

so i got a tiguan.

really was wanting something A3 like in an suv