subscribed...looks to be a good thread.
Reason for this thread is to highlight my experience both negative and positive about the following:
- Companies I have dealt with
- Review of the products and where to purchase for the best deal
- Detailed instructions about the FT F23 install Link to Product
- Detailed instructions about WAVETRAC LSD Install Link to Product
- Southbend Clutch Stage II Endurance Install Link to Product
- Maestro Tuning Software - Eurodyne Link to product
I am not one to take shortcuts and cheap out on things because i'd rather get it done right the and not have to worry about things failing due to my own negligence.....(yes i am not going with rods, as my goal is to find the safest limits without having to split my motor....this will be future upgrade).
Well i finally got all my parts and i'm almost ready for the install aside from a few gaskets, washers, studs & nuts which i should have by Tuesday. I would of had these parts lined up if i knew i would have needed them and was aware of exactly which part numbers to order.
I dealt directly with Doug to find out more information about the F23 & F4 Turbo as i was unsure of which to buy. Doug was an excellent source of information regarding his products and he took the time to explain the benefits of each. In short, here are the best way to differentiate the two turbo's.
Price (according to FT website) - bosche 550cc injectors also included:
F4 turbo kit alone $1,149.00
F23 Turbo kit alone $1,647.00
The above prices do not include additional gaskets, washers, studs, bolts & nuts needed for the install.
The next question you should ask yourself is this:
Am i looking for a replacement turbo for my blown k03/k04 or am i looking to upgrade my turbo without getting into a Garret.
Now i am from Canada Eh! so i went through a dealer up here named Euroline Performance. I paid a total of 1950.00 CDN Cash to get the F23 Turbo which included the following:
I am not sure yet what the three bolts are for.....hopefully i will find out.
I will update this section once my dealings with Euroline Performance have concluded....
I originally went directly to Wavetrac for their LSD and they were a great help but it was advised/easier to go through one of their Canadian dealer JRP. Both companies were a pleasure to deal with and i highly recommend them to anyone.
Upon choosing an LSD, i had three to choose from:
The prices were all very similar so it just came down to which was best. With all my research it ended up being a no brainer. Although Quaife and Peloquin are reputable, Wavetrac was the best built and offered a superior product.
And as a bonus, their customer service was excellent and to get a great product and great customer service together is becoming pretty rare these days.
I will post up some before and after videos of driving with a comparison of stock vs Wavetrac.
I chose to go with a DXD Southbend SMF Stage II Endurance clutch & Flywheel. Again the customer service at Southbend was excellent and VAG Motosports as well....I dealt with Matt
Now this wasn't my first choice and it was because i wasn't aware of them but man was i happy when i was told about them...I was originally going to go with Unitronic.
The main decision on this was how i would be able to adjust and play with the tuning software....which could not be done unitronic. So example, if i did an upgrade, id have to pay more money.
Another key feature of the Eurodyne software package is it comes with 2 step which works great!
So upon reviewing what i received for the F23, i needed to order some additional stuff for the install. Some people will disagree with what i ordered but i find it necessary.
I went to my local VW Audi dealership with my turbo and manifold so we could fit on the gaskets to make sure they were the right ones. Here is the list:
1x Gasket between the turbo & exhaust manifold - waiting on gasket to make sure its the right
1x 058 253 039L -Exhaust Manifold gasket. You want to make sure its the metal one.
13x N 044 411 5 - exhaust manifold studs that go into the head
13x N 902 002 01 - exhaust manifold nuts
3x N 907 678 01 - Turbo outlet studs for exhaust Downpipe
6x N 903 690 01 - Exhaust down pipe nuts(3) Attach Turbo to Manifold nuts(3)
1x 058 145 757 A - Turbocharger Oil Line Gasket
1x 058 145 757 C - Turbocharger Oil Line Gasket
8x N 013 814 9 - SEALING WASHER for oil/coolant lines
4x N 013 851 4 - SEALING WASHER for oil/coolant lines - different size than above
1x - gasket between turbo and exhaust downpipe - waiting on part #
Total Price 172.18 cdn.
I know i will not need all of these but its good to have during the install incase some things need replacement. What ever i dont use, i will be returning.
I will come back to this part....
Here are just some random pics of the products...
I think this is how it goes together...
To be continued....
Last edited by hondss; 04-24-2012 at 11:24 PM.
awesome!, i love my f23, and doug is the man, totally there for anyone who needs/wants some help...
those 3 bolts look like they would be for the turbo-manifold... but there are also studs, i'm guessing you get to choose which ones youde want to use?
edit: i'm on my stock bottom end for now as well, been like that almost a year, just keep the boost to a safe level and your good
okay so i began the install today.....and this is gonna take some time.....i am already 6 hours into it and this is what i have done....p.s. bare with me because i haven't done anything like this since my 1983 rabbit gti back in highschool - over 14 years ago!
So obviously you want to jack up the car as high as possible because work gets done under the car as well.
be sure to protect your car with what ever you can on the fenders and bumpers:
So my first step was to remove the air box:
After doing this, your intake is exposed much more and you can see everything that is plugged into it. Start taking things off the intake and free it up.
BTW, you may have clips like this on your hoses.....you will need to break them off without damaging the hose and using normal hose clamps.
So once your intake is all cleared up from the hoses, you will find a master clip at the base. This needs to be removed and you can take off the intake.
now you will have your intercooler hoses within reach....take off the heat wrap....they unbotten like a tshirt.....or a bra
You may not need to do this but i removed that intercooler pipe (im probably calling it by its wrong name. there will be two clamps with 2 nuts on each that will need to be removed. Once that is done, you will need to take off your passanger front wheel and get at this hose clamp.
Once that is off, the intercooler pipe will come right off.
This freed up much more room for me to work with the exhaust manifold, turbo, and downpipe.
Next you wanna remove the heat shield on the head so you can get at the exhaust manifold. it is just one bolt but the turbo inlet pipe is blocking its escape. so i bent it back a bit to take out the three bolts holding the turbo to the exhaust manifold.
here is the bolt....
At this point i removed my downpipe. Thankfully it was just put on 3 months ago so i had no problems removing it....but the heat shield above it caused some problems...so i removed that as well.
Now keep in mind, i had a vband on the other end of the exhaust so i could just remove it after unbolting it from the turbo. If you haven't upgraded your exhaust, you may have difficulties with this part.
So the next step was to remove the turbo and exhaust manifold....which ended up being a complete pain. you couldn't access all the exhaust manifold bolts cause of the turbo. so i kept going from the turbo to the manifold removing each one slowly. in hindsight, i would have removed all the oil/coolant lines first. I didn't remove any of those from the turbo as i wanted to keep them in tact to know where everything went on the new turbo. so make sure to remove it from the other ends. Trace the lines and you will figure it out. It is good to have a spotter to see what is moving and trace it...
One of the oil lines goes directly to the oil filter housing...This is a bit of a pain to get too but you need to remove everything above it - or fold it away...
the bolt is under the black plastic....just slide that black plastic thing off its mount and you will see it....its an allen key.
you can see how the way is cleared better know to expose the oil line.
and there is the bolt..
notice the mount holding it in place. this will need to be removed to remove the line:
Okay here is where i fought with the line for a good 20minutes trying to remove it from the engine bay.....oh yes, i disconnected it from the turbo as well..but this was the only line i did.
so because of all the bends and brackets on the oil line, i couldn't get it out. i debated keeping it there and re-using it but i was unsure if it would be ok. the new lines that came with the kit are much bigger so i am assuming it has a higher flow rate to keep the turbo cooler....so i made the executive decision and....
Here is a pic of the coolant line hose to the turbo from under the car:
yup i cut the line....took a lot of man strength cause i was too lazy to get out my cutter - it was pretty late and i was tired.
so now that the turbo was basically free, i had to undo one more bolt holding it in close to the oil pan. now the problem i found trying to undo this bolt was i couldn't get enough leverage to crack it free from under the car. from the top, i couldn't do it either.....so i came up with this long long extension....
you can access the bolt from the passanger side wheel bay and stick it all the way through to the bolt. i then used a johnson bar to crack it and done!
So now the turbo was just hanging there and mostly out of my way so i could get at the rest of the exuahst manifold bolts....
sorry i dont have pics of that but its pretty straight forward.
Exhaust manifold came out very easily and i had no issues with the bolts. i didn't even have to use penetrating oil on them.
so then i pulled the turbo out from the top of the car - very tight fit. maybe it could have fit through the bottem but i didnt want to get back under due to one of the coolant lines i disconnected from the motor leaked a bit on the ground.
Here are the two turbos side by side.
So now i am stumped.....which is why i stopped tonight.
I sent an email to doug hoping he would help out but im gonna check with you guys as well since one or some of you said you did this already..
I have no clue wth goes here! i am assuming its an empty spot for a gauge reading for the turbo temp or exaust temp??? So what do you guys recommend i do? Just put a bolt in there or what??
My second dilemma was taking the hoses from the one turbo to the new one. this kit came with a thread to thread adapter. I am having problems tightening the lines to the turbo and my only conclusion is that i need to split the turbo's intake side to tighten everything down properly....this true??
I am beat and gonna hit the sack so i can get back on this tomorrow. Hopefully i will have this resolved so i can go ahead and get the car finished.
as for the lines, i figured that out as well and i will detail what i did right now....but i need help with another issue now.
Okay so today was just as involved as i wanted to solve the two problems i mentioned last night.
So first regarding the threaded hole i didn't know what to do with.....
my f23 kit was missing a bolt for this hole to cover it up....so i had to find one. The thread is as follows: M12 Size, 12mm Length, 1.25mm Pitch, Fine Thread - in case anyone needs to know.
So here is the only solution i could get due to lack of supplies at stores......i kinda wish it didn't have a washer but im sure i wont hear it rattle....
Now regarding the oil line on the turbo and questioning how to tighten it....after a few emails back and forth with Doug, it was mentioned i would have to split the turbo as i thought to get on the one oil line.
So just remove the 4 10mm nuts holding it in place and the housing comes right off...
the big part is tightening it and having the hose point the right direction......
its a tight fit...
This is what it should look like after with the housing back on....it MUST be right against it.
Here are the pics of the rest of the lines of the turbo....they must all be pointing in these directions in order to hook them up with the car....it took me a few tries of putting the turbo in and out to make sure....
Okay so the turbo is all ready to be put in...but before i do that, i am going to install my 550cc injectors.
There are two allan key bolts that hold the rail in place....i took them off at the start but you can leave them on until you remove the black plastic casing holding in the wires for the injectors.
notice in the above picture i have the black plastic caps flipped up...you need to do that as well...its just two clips per cover. i needed to use two small screw drivers to pry it open.
You will need to unplug your TPS from the throttle body to give yourself more slack:
at this point, if you didn't remove the two allan key bolts, they need to be removed to take off the plastic housing for the electrical on the injectors.
You will now need to unplug this one as well:
its almost off..
Now with it off ..
You may not need to do this but i chose too.....remove the two fuel lines to the injectors:
Now the fuel rail will move around with ease....now you just lift straight up and pull the injectors out with the fuel rail.
The injectors are held in with these clips that are very easy to take off...
New & old injectors:
Anyone know what stock injector size is?
Here they are installed:
Now just slide them back into their holes and reverse the order of the install and you are done with the injectors.
Last edited by hondss; 04-25-2012 at 09:38 PM.
So the new problem i have is when trying to mount the turbo.
The problem is with my heater hoses going into the firewall. They are just in the way to of where the turbo should go.
I first slid the turbo in then i put the exhaust manifold on but i couldn't get the turbo up to the mounting spot.....also it seems as htough i will not be using the stock bottom mounting bracket of the turbo....but i could be wrong.
Its this metal section of the heater hose that is causing me all the grief...SOMEONE HELP as i hear this is common!
i am guessing these hoses need to be removed and a new set need to be retrofitted on. Someone CHIME IN!
Last edited by hondss; 04-25-2012 at 09:50 PM.
I should of taken a pic of the turbo wedged in with the hoses...but i forgot and im too tired to get back out.
It seems as though people remove the hoses and install braided line hoses to make this possible..but im still searching online now.
Last edited by hondss; 04-25-2012 at 10:31 PM.
for the coolant lines i remember i bent them down towards the tranny, never had issues with them.
for the oil line wow. um just use the stock line and unbend the 2 bends a little. takes 5mins and its free for return line you will have to use the non stock one.
Last edited by Maxpowerz; 04-26-2012 at 12:37 AM.
looks like an EGT gauge spot.
However, that thread is 1/8" NPT. That's pipe thread. AKA, a tapered thread. You can't just stick a normal bolt in it. A bolt has straight threads.
Go to Ace hardware and look in the plumbing aisle. Get a stainless steel 1/8" NPT plug.
Hopefully you didn't try to tighten that bolt up in there too hard.
As to the oil feed, here's my thoughts...
I think you need to remove your compressor housing completely.Then rotate it so the outlet points in roughly the right direction. Then choose the proper bolt holes so your wastegate actuator bracket is correct. Then use the other (2)?? hold down plates to bolt your compressor into the right clocking lightly. I say lightly so you can adjust it upon final install.
I think this rotation of the housing outlet plus the movement of the wastegate actuator bracket will allow the oil feed line to not have to rub up against the exhaust manifold.
Last edited by groggory; 04-26-2012 at 01:41 AM.
This oil line orientation completely stinks. Raamy, THANK YOU for posting up these excellent pics of the dry-fit. Granted, these lines are free with the turbo, but they're still supposed to work 100%. I'm going to change the fitting on these so it's not clumsy like this.
I wish I took half the amount of pictures you did, this is great... I think I took like 3 pictures of my f23 and that's about it . now it's all used and abused haha
awesome write up man, can't wait until you get it done
Hey Honds ... awesome detailed thread!
Word of advice for the heater core lines. You have three options:
1) unbolt yours from the the side of the block and bend it out of the way ( it needs some muscling but that's what I did).
2) cut yours and run your own heater core lines
3) buy the Audi tt 225 heater core line setup and run that.
Okay Day 3 is in the books!......
so i last left of with the heater line problem......Well i certainly fixed that!
So remove the heater lines completely from the car.
you have to use a small screw driver or pick(sp?) and pry the metal "U" clip off it the plugs remove them
So here, you have plenty options......I unfortunately did not because i was unaware of having to do this mod due to being new and all.
So options are to order a braided line coolant hose kit or mod the existing hose with the purchase of some new hoses, 90 degree fitting, straight fitting and tons of clamps...
I dont want to wait around for parts so i modded mine.
first you will need to take off the heat wrap
then cut the black tape and tear the hose apart slowly.
you will need to hook the hose back up and start to plan your new route.
Also keep in mind, the longer hose goes to the left fitting and shorter hose goes to the right fitting.
i was fortunate to go by my friends shop and grab this tool which was super handy in cutting down the metal coolant line that was in the way of the turbo....
This was my first cut.....i didn't take too much off.
I then tried to fit the turbo in place but still had issues...
In this pic you can see the problem....the metal coolant line has no way to go past the intake tube.
So i cut it down to where the little threaded stud sticks out.....you will need to cut off that stud as well to fit the hose as far down the metal hose as possible:
The little shiny part on the metal line is where the little threaded stud use to be.
So start figuring out your route....as shown:
Keep in mind you will need to use pieces of your old hose for specific curves:
As you can see here i switched the plugs.....i put the 75degree plug on the left side and the straight plug on the right side due to routing problems.
Here are the finished products....yea they dont look AEM or anything but that wasn't my concern...they work and are solid.
Here are the lines running under the turbo intake pipe completely out of the way:
Under the intake pipe:
I double clamped them for safety due to not having that rolled edge from stock:
***edit...after installing the turbo and running the car, the coolant pipe I cut ended up leaking slightly. Reason being is because the metal pipe isn't completely round closer to the head. If you plan on doing this, make sure to place the hose and clamp around the rounded section or else it won't seal. If you can avoid cutting the metal pipe, i recommend it otherwise you will have to be very precise with the hose and clamp.
My friend holding the line like a tea cup:
So anyways.....take the lines back off and set them aside....
install your manifold but remember to put the turbo back there first and let it hang.....it may fit from the bottom up but i didn't wanna do extra work if i could avoid it.
So here comes the NEXT problem....
On this manifold there are two nuts side by side that are very tight to put on....THEY ARE SO FREAKING TIGHT that you can't fit a socket or a wrench on them....so how do you tighten them? Like Magic....
I first tried to grind down my 13mm wrench to make it fit..
anyways...this didn't work either.....i couldn't get at those two nuts tightened. so i took them back off and sat to think...
And i got an epiphany......I called force Fed Engineering and wanted to know if they had any tricks..btw, this was the magic part
And here is the trick!!....ready?!?!?! This made it so easy i laughed!
The car has 13mm socket sized nuts (8mmx1.25). FFE said they use 12mm socket sized nuts with the same specs.....and that made way more sense!! SO THAT IS THE TRICK! SOURCE THEM OUT.
Here is the part number...it works almost everywhere...So pick up 3 of them minimum....
So anyways....you will need to firstly put these two nuts of first and tigthen down the manifold just with these....DO NOT PUT ANY OTHER NUTS ON ASIDE FROM THESE TWO.......they go side by side inbetween the 3rd and 4th manifold tube (manfild tubes closes to the driver side i am calling 3 &4). Anyways you will figure it out.
Once you have the exhaust manifold tighten down....continue on with the rest of them. Once they are all on and tight...do your torquing.
Check with a mirror or...a CD
My next step was to mount the turbo. I chose to use the studs instead of the bolts. I used this bolt just to hold the turbo in place while i placed the studs in.
While on the phone with FFE - he mentioned my specific manifold was made by him and it was milled so it was completely flat which meant i would not need to use a gasket....so i didn't put one in and we will see how it works.
Turbo is in place, begin hooking up your coolant and oil lines.
This one is the front of the motor:
Hook up your heater lines....
Hook up your down pipe...
And next hook up your intercooler hose back on the passenger side wheel and then you will find this....
The elbow off the stock turbo isn't long enough because the turbo is now placed along the driverside of the motor rather then in the middle....so i had to stop working (and i was getting tired)...and will need to pick up a new flex tube tomorrow.
So tomorrow will be a little bit of a brain killer because i will need to figure out how to route the lines going to the intake tube...
So if everything goes well, i will be putting coolant & oil back in the car.......re-flashing it with maestro and turning the key!
Last edited by hondss; 04-30-2012 at 10:18 PM.
so much detail.
thats a pretty big gap between your charge pipe and F23.
why don't you have a FMIC?
Need some HELP PLS....
The following Valve - i think its the combi valve for vacuum....i can't figure out where it goes. I am not sure if it was off before i started or not because the previous owner had done some work to the car.
Actually i think i just found it...
Its the line that goes to the stock k03 turbo....the f23 doesn't have this hookup so i am just gonna cap it off.
Insane write up. I have F23 kit sitting next to me, just waiting on manifold from a fellow vortexer and an installation hardware kit from chris at CBtuning and will be having it installed. I told doug I would do a write up and review on F23 kit and CBtuning install kit but this one will just make mine look like a joke! ha
In any event I will do some sort of write up/review on everything and mainly chris's install kit to give doug and chris feedback so it will hopefully be offered to future F23 kits
Again, killer write up and continue doing work
Every bolt on possible, last one being water meth I lied, most recent last one is now F23