Exhaust manifold

[Marcus_Aurelius]

Ok so while we're all learning I remember hearing that 300hp was close to limit for stock rods. What are the facts on them?

Ok James, from my experiments with my 20mm OEM 225 version that are rumored to be stronger than the 19mm found in some variants (honestly I personally doubt it because the failure and weak point seen on mine and all the bent rods I've seen, is not where the 20mm are beefier)

With that said, pushing power gradually over time and monitoring all the vitals, I finally turned two of mine into bananas at around 360 AWTQ spiking really early. So in reality they are much stronger than most believed but that is a loaded statement because that's assuming a good tune with good AFR, knock and heat management. Most knuckle heads bending or snapping rods out there are doing it because of something screwy in the tune that would have the same effect on upgraded rods. Obviously everyone find it simple to just put the blame on the OEM rods but in reality they can take quite a bit of torque (with everything else in check) before they show their weakness. My feeling is that most DD stock frames turbo/hybrids will not push enough torque to hurt them as long as everything else is kosher.

This is what finally happened to mine with a good tune around 360 AWTQ right after switching to E85. Most people will never push enough boost, run enough timing to destroy those unless there is another variable that put extra stress on them. Please use that info wisely!

[PLAYED TT]

Very well explained thank you

[Atomic Ed]

My set up is quite involved to say the least and would be hard for someone without tons of experience or budget to replicate. I run on E85, a real intricate water only (h20) injection system with 4 directly ported manifold nozzles, pre-throttle body nozzle and now pre-turbo injection. I run 35 psi in kill trim and 30 psi daily with two manual boost controllers and external springs to increase wastegate actuator threshold to 20+ psi.

As far as what I recommend for a more sane setup that will deliver:

- A good water injection system (not talking about china edition entry level single nozzle map based kits with shurflo pumps)

- A good manifold-back set up (JBS and 42DD are your friends)

- A good intake ( 42DD with Badger5 TIP)

- Tyrolsport SMIC upgrade(s)

- 034 phenolic intake manifold spacer

- VCDS cable and registered software (Unisetting free download is also a must to dial some stuff)

- A good MBC or EBC

- A software upgrade (flash or Maestro if you have the budget)

- FrankenTurbo F23 upgrade (obviously if the budget allows it)

I swear that you’ve peeked under the hood of my build with this list Since mine is going to be just a daily driver, I’m sticking with a FMIC for now and see how it goes. Water/Meth injection will be minimized just to keep in simple. Otherwise, it’s nearly the same list, just add a 2.1L into the mix.

My philosophy is somewhat the same as yours. I asked myself “How much time do I spend above 5K on the street?” “Where do I want my power?” And the most important question: “What build is going to be the most fun to drive?” I think we sometimes suck the joy out of driving one of these great cars by doggedly pursuing “big numbers”. Balance and reliability should be part of the equation also.

My best test will be how does the car react to my input and does it meet my idea of how my sports car should perform.

My only concern at this time is will the F23 fall off too quickly due to the extra 20% effective volume of the new engine….let’s find out.

[Subverter]

I swear that you’ve peeked under the hood of my build with this list Since mine is going to be just a daily driver, I’m sticking with a FMIC for now and see how it goes. Water/Meth injection will be minimized just to keep in simple. Otherwise, it’s nearly the same list, just add a 2.1L into the mix.

My philosophy is somewhat the same as yours. I asked myself “How much time do I spend above 5K on the street?” “Where do I want my power?” And the most important question: “What build is going to be the most fun to drive?” I think we sometimes suck the joy out of driving one of these great cars by doggedly pursuing “big numbers”. Balance and reliability should be part of the equation also.

My best test will be how does the car react to my input and does it meet my idea of how my sports car should perform.

My only concern at this time is will the F23 fall off too quickly due to the extra 20% effective volume of the new engine….let’s find out.

[doug@frankenturbo.com]

A lot of this information is good, but not relevant to the OP. His car is a base TT180 model with the K03 turbo. So he simply needs an upgraded transversal-fitment manifold, which that XS Power company sells. The one they sent was for longitudinal-engine fitment, like a Passat or A4.

[jwalker1.8]

A lot of this information is good, but not relevant to the OP. His car is a base TT180 model with the K03 turbo. So he simply needs an upgraded transversal-fitment manifold, which that XS Power company sells. The one they sent was for longitudinal-engine fitment, like a Passat or A4.

Is the op's car quattro or fwd?

[ModsTTand]

Two companies with similar K04 Performance Turbo Exhaust cast manifold :

JBS : 350 BP excl.. VAT = 565.999 USD

http://www.jbsautodesigns.co.uk/prod...04-oem-upgrade

HG-Motorsport
Cost : 499,00 EUR incl. 19% VAT = 534.481 USD excl shipping



http://www.hg-motorsport.de/shop/pro...Quermotor.html

[Atomic Ed]

^
Interesting find. Looks like HG-Motorsport is using the same casting company as JBS.

OP,

Sorry we hijacked your thread, but as both Doug and I stated, XS-Power sent you the wrong manifold.

I just wanted to give you the benefit of my research and knowledge on the use of these types of manifolds. The question I should have asked is how long do you want the manifold to last?

It's almost impossible to build a tubular manifold at this price that is going to last a long while. As with any manufacturing process, some of these manifolds will last a lot longer than the average, and some won't last at all. I even question the quality of the steel. I'm sure it's technically 321 stainless, but it can't be a low carbon stainless. You can't buy quality 321 tubing for that price, even in China.

Our cars seem to put a lot of strain on the exhaust manifolds, so through a lot of heat cycles, tubular manifolds, on the average, fail quicker. Cast manifolds still have a wide range of materials and casting quality issues, but seem to hold up better, again, on the average.

I've popped the flange welds on my 42DD downpipe twice now and finally had a heavier duty flange made to cope with the stress of bigger eliminator turbo. (My new F23 turbo is much lighter and shouldn't be a problem.)

The XS-power manifold may be just the ticket for you, if you are looking to just play with it as a hobby. As for long term reliability, you might want to re-consider.

[Marcus_Aurelius]

A lot of this information is good, but not relevant to the OP. His car is a base TT180 model with the K03 turbo. So he simply needs an upgraded transversal-fitment manifold, which that XS Power company sells. The one they sent was for longitudinal-engine fitment, like a Passat or A4.

So to stay completely relevant to the OP, JBS also has (arguably) the best K03 layout exhaust manifold at this point in time.

[l88m22vette]

It'd be sweet to use the top of the JBS for an external wastegate

[ModsTTand]

It'd be sweet to use the top of the JBS for an external wastegate

How about PPT Turbo Manifold with K04 V-band adaptor + External Wastegate V-band Blank plate

just to spice things up for Our beloved K04 crowd:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/1-8T-Spiderwo...ht_1437wt_1051

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Burstflow-Sto...#ht_2111wt_791

[Marcus_Aurelius]

How about PPT Turbo Manifold with K04 V-band adaptor + External Wastegate V-band Blank plate

just to spice things up for Our beloved K04 crowd:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/1-8T-Spiderwo...ht_1437wt_1051

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Burstflow-Sto...#ht_2111wt_791

If we are going down the "cracking" manifold list, we may as well add the 034 one to complete your list

[ModsTTand]

If we are going down the "cracking" manifold list, we may as well add the 034 one to complete your list

[Issam Abed]

Two companies with similar K04 Performance Turbo Exhaust cast manifold :

JBS : 350 BP excl.. VAT = 565.999 USD

http://www.jbsautodesigns.co.uk/prod...04-oem-upgrade

HG-Motorsport
Cost : 499,00 EUR incl. 19% VAT = 534.481 USD excl shipping



http://www.hg-motorsport.de/shop/pro...Quermotor.html

...that is disgusting.
JBS's unit has not even been on the market for that long and allready it is ripped off. How people think this is ok baffles me daily . Screw ingenuity....I am going to start copying everyone's ****.
This industry has officially seen the last of days.

[Marcus_Aurelius]

...that is disgusting.
JBS's unit has not even been on the market for that long and allready it is ripped off. How people think this is ok baffles me daily . Screw ingenuity....I am going to start copying everyone's ****.
This industry has officially seen the last of days.

I totally agree! That is why I didn't mention the clone company when I posted what I believe is the best K03/k04 exhaust manifold available in the market right now, although I was aware of the existence of the fake. I was reading the heated debate about them in the UK forums and I guess although JBS created the design and did all the R&D, they outsourced their manufacturing and that shameless company just went straight to that manufacturer. It is sad and I don't see why anyone who understand what it takes to come up with something new for a platform would ever buy that product which is not even that much cheaper anyway... but again I've experienced first hand more f**** up things in the 1.8t world. Some companies would do anything for a dollar.

[ModsTTand]

Its my fault not mentioning this : WWW.HG-motorsport.de offered their product before JBS finished R&D/release their product ,maybe its shared development!

HPA is not a clone-company of HGP !

Revo Started by Cloning APR ECU Maps!

Branding costs,Cloning/replicating is cheap, Research&Developing is something even better.

my Advice to OP : please before ordering any part consider picking one : price/durability?

[Atomic Ed]

I can tell you JBS did the hard lift on the deveopment of this product. I was in contact with them as far back as Feb. 2010 on this product. I worked with them to make sure the ATP 2871 eliminator would fit and clear the new design. Even then, JBS design work goes farther back into the 2009 time period.

But, it's possible that this is a licensed agreement between the two companies. Maybe JBS needed a partner to cover the cost of the initial setup and minimum first run volume. Or maybe it is a knock off and the legal battle will begin. Unless JBS wants to bring the issue to the public's attention, we'll never really know for sure.

But I still tip to JBS for taking the business risk for putting out a high quality item like this and gambling on such a narrow market. Money sent, product received.

[warranty225cpe]

Looks like a JBS is in my future. But I will need a tune first. And Adj LCAs (Max), and a rear sway... Then I'll be done (yeah right).

[ModsTTand]

Looks like a JBS is in my future. But I will need a tune first. And Adj LCAs (Max), and a rear sway... Then I'll be done (yeah right).

F32/JBS K04/42DD 3"inch downpipe...........idea Brewing !

[warranty225cpe]

F23/JBS K04/42DD 3"inch downpipe +E85/RODS,.........idea Brewing !

There, fixed..

[Marcus_Aurelius]

There, fixed..

Hey ... can you top killing people's dreams?

[warranty225cpe]

Hey ... can you top killing people's dreams?

Hey if your gonna dream, might as well make it a wet one

[l88m22vette]

LOL

How about PPT Turbo Manifold with K04 V-band adaptor + External Wastegate V-band Blank plate

I already have a PPT manifold, but its a T3

[Issam Abed]

Some companies would do anything for a dollar.

...and some customers will do anything to give them that dollar. Ive watched companies grow from the shadows of a 1 bay garage to a globally known facility by ripping off other products and branding as there own.
In the end this sucks and I guess some of just have to "deal with it".

JBS for sure was the first company to make that manifold. I know this first hand...

[doug@frankenturbo.com]

Sam --

I have to think that other one is just a private-label spinoff from the JBS. Besides, why can't you get 034 to resurrect their cast one? It's probably a better performer than either of these other two...

[ModsTTand]

@warranty225cpe : thats a proper FIX , lol

@l88m22vette:

Hey ... can you top killing people's dreams?

You already proven dream projects come true

[Issam Abed]

Sam --

I have to think that other one is just a private-label spinoff from the JBS.

Unless you mean knock off then sure.

Besides, why can't you get 034 to resurrect their cast one? It's probably a better performer than either of these other two...

It probably is but 034 has put the nail in the coffin with respect to that manifold. I do have an inconnel prototype that was made some time ago but IMHO the demand for a decent K04 high flow manifold isnt there to justify the cost to put it into production.

Most 225/180 guys look at it this way ....
High flow K04 manifold ($500) + K04 hybrid ( $1000) + Software ( $600) = approx $2000. They are allready half way there to a decent turbo kit based on a billet compressor wheel turbocharger that isn't modeled off a 15+ year old CHRA.

of course feedback / input is always welcome.

[PLAYED TT]

That's still cheaper then going BT and could be an intermediate step. Also if my ko4 would blow I would more than likely go in that direction.

[warranty225cpe]

I think it's unfortunate that the majority of the aftermarket turbo stuff for our cars is for BT applications. It's pretty obvious that there is a market for a small/Ko4 set up. The more we discuss it, the more I think people understand that day to day lag free turbos can be perfect for a daily. Aw hell, I'm doing it. That $2000 for a turbo setup might be 1/2 way to lots of power, but it's spot on for "just right" in my book. When I hit my goal of a daily driver with 300hp/300tq, all will be right with the world

[PLAYED TT]

300hp is perfect for a daily IMO

[warranty225cpe]

300hp is perfect for a daily IMO

And once I get my e85 tune worked out I'm sure I'll be north of that mark

[Atomic Ed]

It probably is but 034 has put the nail in the coffin with respect to that manifold. I do have an inconnel prototype that was made some time ago but IMHO the demand for a decent K04 high flow manifold isnt there to justify the cost to put it into production.

I agree with Doug that the 034 manifold most likely has the better potential of the two designs.

It's too bad 034 has discontinued work on this mani. It does explain why they have gone radio silent on the issue after many attempts to get the straight scoop out of them. However, they did put one on their Silverlight project (see Eurotuner magazine, search for Project Silverlight) and stated they were going to put out a kit using the K04 manifold and an ATP 2871 eliminator. (Yes or no??)

Here is what is so frustrating about all of this. If a product doesn't work out, then manufacturers/retailers should just say so. Most customers would respect a company a lot more if they would just buck up and say it doesn't work or it’s just not economically feasible, so we're dropping it. It's the waiting with no answer that kills customer relations.

Yeah, there are a few that would bitch, but for the most part, honesty will win most customers over in the long run, even if they don’t like the initial message. Doug's business model is a great example of this.

Sorry OP, the need and the development a decent manifold for the 225 transverse has been an issue for a long time in the community. Your post has brought this to the surface.

[doug@frankenturbo.com]

Sam -- I know my hopes for seeing a return of that manifold are slim. Your explanation of why makes sense. But I can also relate to the frustrating history of that 034: it got tripped up by an easy-to-remedy specification error. And for a niche product like that to survive, it couldn't stumble out of the gate like it did.

Anyway, I'm just putting it out there (as a guy who sells a competing product): that manifold has a place in the market. Keep an eye out as spartiati and I soon begin to Maestro tune a stock motor using that thing. You'll see.

[l88m22vette]

Sorry OP, the need and the development a decent manifold for the 225 transverse has been an issue for a long time in the community. Your post has brought this to the surface.

Its always been a known issue, its just now there are upgraded k04s out there to make it worth the effort, maybe 034 could sell the design/license to someone who wants to make them...

[Atomic Ed]

By the way Sam, at least you made a decision and stated it, thanks.

The decision to move forward to develop a quality manifold is even tougher now (or maybe easier, depending on how you look at it) with the JBS on the market.

We discussed it before, better casting material and thicker walls would do the trick on the 034 manifold. Sand casting in itself is not a bad thing if done right.