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    Thread: Exhaust manifold

    1. Member ttwsm's Avatar
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      04-24-2012 09:38 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      To Chuckmeister, we were all where you are right now and had to start learning somewhere... but do less commenting and more reading especially when you're not sure of what you are talking about.
      Knowledge goes farther without the attitude. People make their posts, others respond, everyone learns something. A chill board is a good board.

      My $0.02.

    2. 04-24-2012 09:41 PM #27
      JWalker1.8, I also found an old dyno of the car right after converting to E85. This dyno graph is no longer relevant because the car is light years ahead of where it was back then in terms of power and development but the graph can be used to analyze powerband on a K04.

      You can see I make 300 AWTQ from 3k to 5k so the entire midrange is loaded (for those that don't know "torque is what win races, HP is what sell new cars"). The HP as you'd expect from the stock turbo is dropping past 5500 rpm but who cares if you are still making substantial power (I anticipate being able to hold way over 300 AWHP to redline with the car at it's current state.




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      04-24-2012 09:46 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      Well, powerband is subjective!

      It all depends on the intended use of the car. A car that has the meat of its power, say from 3k to 5.5k, has the same usable powerband as another car that makes power from 4.5k to 7k (2.5k of usable power). The difference in effectiveness between these two examples would be where in the powerband you spend the bulk of your intended use of the car.

      I will give some concrete examples so everyone can follow, our buddy DougLoBue has a beast of a TT with a big turbo, he makes more horsepower than I do and we have around the same torque. However, his power comes in way later than mine does and at the track my car is a lot more efficient because he has to wait for power coming out of a turn; and by the time his power gets there, it's already time to brake again. Now if we were to take both cars to a highway, with limitless distance to open the cars up, although I would walk away from him at first, he would eventually catch up and put my small frame turbo in its place. So two different kind of animals that would shine in different elements. On a daily car, the setup with early torque and instant power is a lot more rewarding (I'm sure Doug can attest to that), the same goes for the track where taking turns are involved. If you are building a drag car, than you definitely want a powerband like the one you posted.

      Now that I hope we cleared the fact that having an early or late powerband has its advantages and drawbacks, we can move to the second part of your statement. You claim that "dumping any kind of of big money into a stock turbo is not worth it" and I feel the same way about 95% of the BT builds in the 1.8t world. A bunch of people with limited knowledge of what they need and can enjoy are dumping bucket of cash into a setup that is not suited for their intended use of the car . Most of these cases could have spent a fraction of a BT budget and have something that they enjoy a lot more if they decided to seriously build a stock frame turbo.

      PS: you lost me on the part about boost spikes and not being able to transfer that into the ground or quick times, so I won't comment on that especially when were are talking about AWD cars with superior traction here.

      Here is a dynojet graph of my car on a highly slipping clutch (slipping so bad that torque curve looked like an earthquake graph). I am posting it although dynojets are retarded since they don't show they don't plot vs rpm but speed (I love load bearing dynos like Dyno Dynamics).


      Thanks for that info... I'm new to this forum, and I'm finidng it quite helpful ... I have a question for Marcus, I believe we are pretty much on the same wave length... What type of set up do you have or what do you recomend I'm not trying to get crazy top end speed for its useless in the street, but I'm looking to build something fast for short track lets per say .. Something that will have that go or power when needed.

      This is my first build. I never got into tuning cars I was more of an audio type.
      Audi TT 2001 ROADSTER FWD
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    4. 04-24-2012 09:57 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by ttwsm View Post
      Knowledge goes farther without the attitude. People make their posts, others respond, everyone learns something. A chill board is a good board.

      My $0.02.
      Agree but a chill board without the knowledge base is scary!

      Most people know, including Chuckmeister that I'm the coolest guy and always looking to help and inform. It hurts when you hear the way other boards, like the technical 1.8t forum or the guys at QW view our Mk1 board due to the scarcity of valuable knowledge and info around here. I post a lot in the technical forums and I catch regulars here all the time going there for real info and it should not be like that. The more experienced members, while still helping, should keep the noobs in check IMO or the boards goes to crap IMO!
      Last edited by Marcus_Aurelius; 04-24-2012 at 10:07 PM.

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      04-24-2012 10:09 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      Well, powerband is subjective!

      It all depends on the intended use of the car. A car that has the meat of its power, say from 3k to 5.5k, has the same usable powerband as another car that makes power from 4.5k to 7k (2.5k of usable power). The difference in effectiveness between these two examples would be where in the powerband you spend the bulk of your intended use of the car.


      The Dyno post I posted was in fourth gear with a 50 trim turbo...full boost around 4200rpm (in fourth) and remember this dyno only revs out to around 7k rpm (stock springs and lifters) I can easily rev to 8k+ rpm and quicker spool (AEB head, lightweight springs and lifters, larger pistons and bore), added timing tweaks ect ect...usable power from 3500ish rpm all the way to 8k...mid sized turbo makes a great street and track car if done right and doesn't have to break the bank.




      If you are building a drag car, than you definitely want a powerband like the one you posted.

      Street or drag in my opinion...car pulls hard right from the line


      PS: you lost me on the part about boost spikes and not being able to transfer that into the ground or quick times, so I won't comment on that especially when were are talking about AWD cars with superior traction here.

      I agree, my statement wasn't clear...I didn't mean it in the sense of traction...more in the sense that yeah your car makes 300+ whp on a dyno but is it a boost spike that boom hits 300 on the graph then falls flat on its face or does it hit 300 and hold to redline?
      Not trying to be a dick or anything like that..honestly to each their own...but after looking at a ton of k04 dynos I just decided a mid sized turbo suits me personally better.

      The one thing I have NEVER personally seen was a K04 dyno all the way out to 7500rpm+ I am curious where the k04 is truly "done"

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      04-24-2012 10:18 PM #31
      Also, just to stay somewhat on topic...my dyno was done on the cheap-o, most frown upon, "most restrictive" t3 manifold for the 1.8t...the dreaded cast ATP manifold.


    7. 04-24-2012 10:45 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by jwalker1.8 View Post
      Not trying to be a dick or anything like that..honestly to each their own...but after looking at a ton of k04 dynos I just decided a mid sized turbo suits me personally better.

      The one thing I have NEVER personally seen was a K04 dyno all the way out to 7500rpm+ I am curious where the k04 is truly "done"
      I totally understand and agree 100% with you ... to each their own. We are just in opposite side of a spectrum. What you view as Ok is way too laggy for the kind of use I have for my car and where it's Ok for me if the power drops, it's not acceptable for you. I build my car to be competitive at a national level in SCCA solo and ProSolo, so there is a real purpose to it and a real gauge of what's usable. But I can tell you that much... when you are chasing tenths of a second, having to wait for power past 3k is a deal breaker

      To answer your question, the K04 really start running out of breath past 6k. I have not experimented with all the restrictions removed around the turbo so I really do not have an accurate sense of what the turbo itself can and can't do. I have the entire air charge pipe virtually free of restrictions with an air to water interccoler that I just built - the exhaust side is free up to the manifold (I have yet to get my JBS upgrade) - the Turbo inlet track can see some improvement too although my system now consist of a silicone uprated TIP a 3" ID S4 MAF and the notorious 42 DD V-stack intake. Until all of that stuff is out of the way all everyone can do is speculate on the true limit of the K04.

      (a bit off topic since the focus is on effect of exhaust manifold upgrades)

      I have to get the badger5 TIP to really optimize the turbo intake, since we have tons of newcomers I think it's appropriate for me to share the best TIP available for our cars








      Last edited by Marcus_Aurelius; 04-24-2012 at 10:50 PM.

    8. 04-24-2012 10:52 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by jwalker1.8 View Post
      Also, just to stay somewhat on topic...my dyno was done on the cheap-o, most frown upon, "most restrictive" t3 manifold for the 1.8t...the dreaded cast ATP manifold.
      I heard that their manifold is a cardinal sin ...

    9. 04-24-2012 11:13 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by Subverter View Post
      Thanks for that info... I'm new to this forum, and I'm finidng it quite helpful ... I have a question for Marcus, I believe we are pretty much on the same wave length... What type of set up do you have or what do you recomend I'm not trying to get crazy top end speed for its useless in the street, but I'm looking to build something fast for short track lets per say .. Something that will have that go or power when needed.

      This is my first build. I never got into tuning cars I was more of an audio type.
      My set up is quite involved to say the least and would be hard for someone without tons of experience or budget to replicate. I run on E85, a real intricate water only (h20) injection system with 4 directly ported manifold nozzles, pre-throttle body nozzle and now pre-turbo injection. I run 35 psi in kill trim and 30 psi daily with two manual boost controllers and external springs to increase wastegate actuator threshold to 20+ psi.

      As far as what I recommend for a more sane setup that will deliver:

      - A good water injection system (not talking about china edition entry level single nozzle map based kits with shurflo pumps)

      - A good manifold-back set up (JBS and 42DD are your friends)

      - A good intake ( 42DD with Badger5 TIP)

      - Tyrolsport SMIC upgrade(s)

      - 034 phenolic intake manifold spacer

      - VCDS cable and registered software (Unisetting free download is also a must to dial some stuff)

      - A good MBC or EBC

      - A software upgrade (flash or Maestro if you have the budget)

      - FrankenTurbo F23 upgrade (obviously if the budget allows it)
      Last edited by Marcus_Aurelius; 04-24-2012 at 11:15 PM.

    10. Moderator PLAYED TT's Avatar
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      04-24-2012 11:24 PM #35
      Ok so while we're all learning I remember hearing that 300hp was close to limit for stock rods. What are the facts on them?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      if this really happens, I'm 'stancing' my car and going for some 'hellaflush'.

    11. 04-25-2012 12:10 AM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by PLAYED TT View Post
      Ok so while we're all learning I remember hearing that 300hp was close to limit for stock rods. What are the facts on them?
      Ok James, from my experiments with my 20mm OEM 225 version that are rumored to be stronger than the 19mm found in some variants (honestly I personally doubt it because the failure and weak point seen on mine and all the bent rods I've seen, is not where the 20mm are beefier)

      With that said, pushing power gradually over time and monitoring all the vitals, I finally turned two of mine into bananas at around 360 AWTQ spiking really early. So in reality they are much stronger than most believed but that is a loaded statement because that's assuming a good tune with good AFR, knock and heat management. Most knuckle heads bending or snapping rods out there are doing it because of something screwy in the tune that would have the same effect on upgraded rods. Obviously everyone find it simple to just put the blame on the OEM rods but in reality they can take quite a bit of torque (with everything else in check) before they show their weakness. My feeling is that most DD stock frames turbo/hybrids will not push enough torque to hurt them as long as everything else is kosher.

      This is what finally happened to mine with a good tune around 360 AWTQ right after switching to E85. Most people will never push enough boost, run enough timing to destroy those unless there is another variable that put extra stress on them. Please use that info wisely!


    12. Moderator PLAYED TT's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 01:37 AM #37
      Very well explained thank you
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      if this really happens, I'm 'stancing' my car and going for some 'hellaflush'.

    13. 04-25-2012 11:25 AM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      My set up is quite involved to say the least and would be hard for someone without tons of experience or budget to replicate. I run on E85, a real intricate water only (h20) injection system with 4 directly ported manifold nozzles, pre-throttle body nozzle and now pre-turbo injection. I run 35 psi in kill trim and 30 psi daily with two manual boost controllers and external springs to increase wastegate actuator threshold to 20+ psi.

      As far as what I recommend for a more sane setup that will deliver:

      - A good water injection system (not talking about china edition entry level single nozzle map based kits with shurflo pumps)

      - A good manifold-back set up (JBS and 42DD are your friends)

      - A good intake ( 42DD with Badger5 TIP)

      - Tyrolsport SMIC upgrade(s)

      - 034 phenolic intake manifold spacer

      - VCDS cable and registered software (Unisetting free download is also a must to dial some stuff)

      - A good MBC or EBC

      - A software upgrade (flash or Maestro if you have the budget)

      - FrankenTurbo F23 upgrade (obviously if the budget allows it)

      I swear that you’ve peeked under the hood of my build with this list Since mine is going to be just a daily driver, I’m sticking with a FMIC for now and see how it goes. Water/Meth injection will be minimized just to keep in simple. Otherwise, it’s nearly the same list, just add a 2.1L into the mix.

      My philosophy is somewhat the same as yours. I asked myself “How much time do I spend above 5K on the street?” “Where do I want my power?” And the most important question: “What build is going to be the most fun to drive?” I think we sometimes suck the joy out of driving one of these great cars by doggedly pursuing “big numbers”. Balance and reliability should be part of the equation also.

      My best test will be how does the car react to my input and does it meet my idea of how my sports car should perform.

      My only concern at this time is will the F23 fall off too quickly due to the extra 20% effective volume of the new engine….let’s find out.
      Last edited by Atomic Ed; 04-25-2012 at 02:09 PM.

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      04-25-2012 07:27 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Ed View Post
      I swear that you’ve peeked under the hood of my build with this list Since mine is going to be just a daily driver, I’m sticking with a FMIC for now and see how it goes. Water/Meth injection will be minimized just to keep in simple. Otherwise, it’s nearly the same list, just add a 2.1L into the mix.

      My philosophy is somewhat the same as yours. I asked myself “How much time do I spend above 5K on the street?” “Where do I want my power?” And the most important question: “What build is going to be the most fun to drive?” I think we sometimes suck the joy out of driving one of these great cars by doggedly pursuing “big numbers”. Balance and reliability should be part of the equation also.

      My best test will be how does the car react to my input and does it meet my idea of how my sports car should perform.

      My only concern at this time is will the F23 fall off too quickly due to the extra 20% effective volume of the new engine….let’s find out.
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    15. Banner Advertiser doug@frankenturbo.com's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 10:57 PM #40
      A lot of this information is good, but not relevant to the OP. His car is a base TT180 model with the K03 turbo. So he simply needs an upgraded transversal-fitment manifold, which that XS Power company sells. The one they sent was for longitudinal-engine fitment, like a Passat or A4.

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      04-25-2012 11:43 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com View Post
      A lot of this information is good, but not relevant to the OP. His car is a base TT180 model with the K03 turbo. So he simply needs an upgraded transversal-fitment manifold, which that XS Power company sells. The one they sent was for longitudinal-engine fitment, like a Passat or A4.
      Is the op's car quattro or fwd?

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      04-26-2012 01:23 AM #42
      Two companies with similar K04 Performance Turbo Exhaust cast manifold :

      JBS : 350 BP excl.. VAT = 565.999 USD

      http://www.jbsautodesigns.co.uk/prod...04-oem-upgrade

      HG-Motorsport
      Cost : 499,00 EUR incl. 19% VAT = 534.481 USD excl shipping



      http://www.hg-motorsport.de/shop/pro...Quermotor.html
      Last edited by ModsTTand; 04-26-2012 at 01:25 AM.
      Reading>posting .

    18. 04-26-2012 12:46 PM #43
      ^
      Interesting find. Looks like HG-Motorsport is using the same casting company as JBS.

      OP,

      Sorry we hijacked your thread, but as both Doug and I stated, XS-Power sent you the wrong manifold.

      I just wanted to give you the benefit of my research and knowledge on the use of these types of manifolds. The question I should have asked is how long do you want the manifold to last?

      It's almost impossible to build a tubular manifold at this price that is going to last a long while. As with any manufacturing process, some of these manifolds will last a lot longer than the average, and some won't last at all. I even question the quality of the steel. I'm sure it's technically 321 stainless, but it can't be a low carbon stainless. You can't buy quality 321 tubing for that price, even in China.

      Our cars seem to put a lot of strain on the exhaust manifolds, so through a lot of heat cycles, tubular manifolds, on the average, fail quicker. Cast manifolds still have a wide range of materials and casting quality issues, but seem to hold up better, again, on the average.

      I've popped the flange welds on my 42DD downpipe twice now and finally had a heavier duty flange made to cope with the stress of bigger eliminator turbo. (My new F23 turbo is much lighter and shouldn't be a problem.)

      The XS-power manifold may be just the ticket for you, if you are looking to just play with it as a hobby. As for long term reliability, you might want to re-consider.

    19. 04-26-2012 02:19 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by doug@frankenturbo.com View Post
      A lot of this information is good, but not relevant to the OP. His car is a base TT180 model with the K03 turbo. So he simply needs an upgraded transversal-fitment manifold, which that XS Power company sells. The one they sent was for longitudinal-engine fitment, like a Passat or A4.
      So to stay completely relevant to the OP, JBS also has (arguably) the best K03 layout exhaust manifold at this point in time.

    20. Member l88m22vette's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 05:05 PM #45
      It'd be sweet to use the top of the JBS for an external wastegate
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      04-27-2012 01:27 AM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by l88m22vette View Post
      It'd be sweet to use the top of the JBS for an external wastegate
      How about PPT Turbo Manifold with K04 V-band adaptor + External Wastegate V-band Blank plate

      just to spice things up for Our beloved K04 crowd:

      http://www.ebay.de/itm/1-8T-Spiderwo...ht_1437wt_1051

      http://www.ebay.de/itm/Burstflow-Sto...#ht_2111wt_791
      Last edited by ModsTTand; 04-27-2012 at 01:37 AM.
      Reading>posting .

    22. 04-27-2012 03:25 AM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by ModsTTand View Post
      How about PPT Turbo Manifold with K04 V-band adaptor + External Wastegate V-band Blank plate

      just to spice things up for Our beloved K04 crowd:

      http://www.ebay.de/itm/1-8T-Spiderwo...ht_1437wt_1051

      http://www.ebay.de/itm/Burstflow-Sto...#ht_2111wt_791
      If we are going down the "cracking" manifold list, we may as well add the 034 one to complete your list

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      04-27-2012 03:40 AM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      If we are going down the "cracking" manifold list, we may as well add the 034 one to complete your list
      Reading>posting .

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      04-28-2012 03:57 AM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by ModsTTand View Post
      Two companies with similar K04 Performance Turbo Exhaust cast manifold :

      JBS : 350 BP excl.. VAT = 565.999 USD

      http://www.jbsautodesigns.co.uk/prod...04-oem-upgrade

      HG-Motorsport
      Cost : 499,00 EUR incl. 19% VAT = 534.481 USD excl shipping



      http://www.hg-motorsport.de/shop/pro...Quermotor.html
      ...that is disgusting.
      JBS's unit has not even been on the market for that long and allready it is ripped off. How people think this is ok baffles me daily . Screw ingenuity....I am going to start copying everyone's ****.
      This industry has officially seen the last of days.

    25. 04-28-2012 07:15 AM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by Issam Abed View Post
      ...that is disgusting.
      JBS's unit has not even been on the market for that long and allready it is ripped off. How people think this is ok baffles me daily . Screw ingenuity....I am going to start copying everyone's ****.
      This industry has officially seen the last of days.
      I totally agree! That is why I didn't mention the clone company when I posted what I believe is the best K03/k04 exhaust manifold available in the market right now, although I was aware of the existence of the fake. I was reading the heated debate about them in the UK forums and I guess although JBS created the design and did all the R&D, they outsourced their manufacturing and that shameless company just went straight to that manufacturer. It is sad and I don't see why anyone who understand what it takes to come up with something new for a platform would ever buy that product which is not even that much cheaper anyway... but again I've experienced first hand more f**** up things in the 1.8t world. Some companies would do anything for a dollar.

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