Exhaust manifold

[Issam Abed]

...ok well here is the inside scoop.
INA started on this project over 3 years ago. Initially the manifold was being worked on by TiAL for the launch of the SA405L & SA405T kits for the 1.8T . That project swiftly saw a nail in the coffin with turbine housings becoming deligated more and more towards the TiAL S605 / R770 turbo kits for the S4 (in short TiAL didnt think the B5 S4 kits would become such a huge success).

After beating around the bush for a while trying to find a solution , 034 was contacted and was commissioned to make the high flow manifold K04 manifolds using Sam Du's car as a template to launch the kit. We started with a brand new OEM manifold , had it extrude honed and then replicated to have thicker runners. In the end the final product that was released to the community by 034 was not up to the standards of competing shops and they made this known publically (Bill@Badger5 thread on SCN) without contacting us first which was unprofessional. I had already been through a similar situation with us being the center of the spot light on a failed product by a supplier that we did not manufacture and that left a very sour taste in my mouth so as soon as I saw the K04 manifolds were failing I pulled the plug and went back to the inconnel units we originally wanted to launch.

Unfortunately casting parts is a whole different ball game to welding up manifolds and they are some realities people need to face. If you see an inconnel manifold that is being sold for under $800-$1000 USD then it is not being casted in Europe or North America and if it is , then it was done in extremely large quantities . The JBS unit is nice and I am sure it is being casted somewhere in Europe, but more than likely you will be seeing 3-4 versions of it very shortly which is a fear for many of us. The UPFRONT COST to cast a proper K04 manifold is $$$ and unless the casting foundry is close to you , you have 0 control over who has access to your molds / designs / patterns , etc

Like I said , we do have an inconnel version of the K04 manifold which flows around 30% more than stock with the structural integrity to prove it but other than that , it is just a really expensive paper weight until we explore this avenue again.
Hope that explains this all.

[PLAYED TT]

That made it very clear thanks!

[Atomic Ed]

Thanks Sam,

I agree totally with your logic. Finding a casting foundry that's inexpensive and can produce consistant quality is a crap shoot.

My best friend works as a senior quality weld and steel inspector in China. He contracts to several large corporations to do "eyes on" inspection for critical parts being made there. I asked him if there was a foundry he would recommend and his answer was yes, but you can't afford them for simple casting manufacturing.

[Marcus_Aurelius]

Well INA, you did a very good job explaining your views of the reason for 034's manifold failure as vendor. Being on the other side of the fence, I can tell you that besides the poor choice of casting that lead to structural failure, replicating the same OEM design and mistakes in terms of flow (mainly the cluster f*** collector) was not the best idea. Since it was a step in the right direction, it was accepted but the core buyers, who are guys like me that are looking to maximize things around stock frame turbos, weren't particularly impressed with the fact that the collector (which is one of the main restriction points) wasn't improved. Truth be told, the poor casting and subpar material for an exhaust manifold killed it and I don't think that Bill (badger5) had anything to do with it, he simply vocalized what we were also experiencing on this side of the pound. Sooner or later the word would have been out on the failures.

Revise the design and use proper material and you will have a true competitor to the JBS unit. Although associating 034 and the word exhaust manifold still leave a bad after taste, I would still give my business to US based companies if the product is right. In that segment where maximizing power is the goal and only real reason for buying, pricing IMO takes a back seat and it's about having the best product. My 2 cents!

[PLAYED TT]

I would still give my business to US based companies if the product is right. In that segment where maximizing power is the goal and only real reason for buying, pricing IMO takes a back seat and it's about having the best product. My 2 cents!

I couldn't agree more with this statement

[Issam Abed]

Truth be told, the poor casting and subpar material for an exhaust manifold killed it and I don't think that Bill (badger5) had anything to do with it, he simply vocalized what we were also experiencing on this side of the pound. Sooner or later the word would have been out on the failures.

"vocalized"
We had a few cars running with relatively low EGT's (even to this day). All the manifolds that left INA were ceramic coated so that may have helped it but Badger5 went direct to 034 and sourced an uncoated manifold from a new sales agent which subsequently cracked.
I am not going to get into specifics but that entire SCN situation was unprofessional but yes , investment casting the manifold is the way forward.

[jwalker1.8]

Completely off topic question but since Issam is probably watching this thread, is there any place to order the DLI mounts in the US or do I have to wait for the long shipping?

[Issam Abed]

Completely off topic question but since Issam is probably watching this thread, is there any place to order the DLI mounts in the US or do I have to wait for the long shipping?

Send me an email : sales@inaengineering.com

[deltaP]

I totally understand and agree 100% with you ... to each their own. We are just in opposite side of a spectrum. What you view as Ok is way too laggy for the kind of use I have for my car and where it's Ok for me if the power drops, it's not acceptable for you. I build my car to be competitive at a national level in SCCA solo and ProSolo, so there is a real purpose to it and a real gauge of what's usable. But I can tell you that much... when you are chasing tenths of a second, having to wait for power past 3k is a deal breaker

To answer your question, the K04 really start running out of breath past 6k. I have not experimented with all the restrictions removed around the turbo so I really do not have an accurate sense of what the turbo itself can and can't do. I have the entire air charge pipe virtually free of restrictions with an air to water interccoler that I just built - the exhaust side is free up to the manifold (I have yet to get my JBS upgrade) - the Turbo inlet track can see some improvement too although my system now consist of a silicone uprated TIP a 3" ID S4 MAF and the notorious 42 DD V-stack intake. Until all of that stuff is out of the way all everyone can do is speculate on the true limit of the K04.

(a bit off topic since the focus is on effect of exhaust manifold upgrades)

I have to get the badger5 TIP to really optimize the turbo intake, since we have tons of newcomers I think it's appropriate for me to share the best TIP available for our cars

Do you have a link or where can I purchase the TIP with turbo intake tapered adaptor?

[peter139]

Nice tip, interesting, will this also fit the 132kw? or will it hitting the cooling pipe?

See this crappy vid http://youtu.be/ZOT5mgHw1yA

or this one

http://youtu.be/knpf4ElDkVQ



Hopefully is this tip stronger

[ModsTTand]

Well INA, you did a very good job explaining your views of the reason for 034's manifold failure as vendor. Being on the other side of the fence, I can tell you that besides the poor choice of casting that lead to structural failure, replicating the same OEM design and mistakes in terms of flow (mainly the cluster f*** collector) was not the best idea. Since it was a step in the right direction, it was accepted but the core buyers, who are guys like me that are looking to maximize things around stock frame turbos, weren't particularly impressed with the fact that the collector (which is one of the main restriction points) wasn't improved. Truth be told, the poor casting and subpar material for an exhaust manifold killed it and I don't think that Bill (badger5) had anything to do with it, he simply vocalized what we were also experiencing on this side of the pound. Sooner or later the word would have been out on the failures.

Revise the design and use proper material and you will have a true competitor to the JBS unit. Although associating 034 and the word exhaust manifold still leave a bad after taste, I would still give my business to US based companies if the product is right. In that segment where maximizing power is the goal and only real reason for buying, pricing IMO takes a back seat and it's about having the best product. My 2 cents!

pump for more constructive discuss on this topic .....both gents are providing info's about improving this awful restrictive Exhaust Manifold .

Q : is there any chance to get any of known respected companies to provide solution for this matter at hand ?

INA/IE/034/JBS... 1.8T engines in need for better-constructed-more-free-flow-exhaust manifold to go with latest provided Intake Manifold design.

[doug@frankenturbo.com]

Three of the four companies you cited have offered a high-performance K04-fitment manifold. So has CX Racing. There's no shortage of options.

[ModsTTand]

Three of the four companies you cited have offered a high-performance K04-fitment manifold. So has CX Racing. There's no shortage of options.

Totally understand ur point Doug yet what i meant is CAST manifold , i fully respect ur products and looking forward to maximize ur F23 on Quattro"Haldex" Setup

my Equation :

42DD intake + Badger5 TIP + K04/F23 Turbo +best free-flow CAST turbo exhaust manifold in the market +3" DP+Tyrol IC +IE/034 Intake manifold+full WMI.

i want to have the broadest power band on 1.8t 20v engine if its possible

[doug@frankenturbo.com]

Well, the 034 cast unit is gone, but definitely not forgotten. It works really well paired with a high-output turbo. That's why I prod Issam to resurrect it, but it's a lost cause.

The JBS unit is also cast, but it too came out of the gate flawed. While reliable (evidently), the outlet-to-turbo is under-specced.

[Marcus_Aurelius]

Well, the 034 cast unit is gone, but definitely not forgotten. It works really well paired with a high-output turbo. That's why I prod Issam to resurrect it, but it's a lost cause.

The JBS unit is also cast, but it too came out of the gate flawed. While reliable (evidently), the outlet-to-turbo is under-specced.

At least the JBS one could be massaged to work. The 034 one would still get the business if properly casted with the right material. I'd definitely support the US based company if the product is done and priced right. Maybe we can all get on Issam's back to see if can make it happen. We still need a good cast manifold that is sorted out, to fill that void in our setups.

[seth_3515]

Ok so while we're all learning I remember hearing that 300hp was close to limit for stock rods. What are the facts on them?

Hp doesn't break rods, torque does. The vortex answer is 300lbs of torque. Now there are some things to consider. If you are running a spiking turbo like the K04 the torque hits hard and fast. So it wil be more likely to break rods if you are near te 300 line. Larger turbos with a smooth torque curve will be easier on the Ross allowing them to last longer if you tube to keep the torque under the magic mark.

[Issam Abed]

We still need a good cast manifold that is sorted out, to fill that void in our setups.

Cast Stainless?

[ModsTTand]

Cast Stainless?

[Marcus_Aurelius]

Cast Stainless?

Anything Issam, as long at it is casted to last and offers a decent improvement over OEM.

How do I talk to you about your unicorn iconel unit for my unique TT?
I think they could be a match made in heaven... or maybe hell