speedo / speedometer bouncing

[vwoutlaw]

Well as the title says. The only catch was this was a manual. I searched quite a bit on the net and here with very limited and old results.

Car Spec:
Year- 2002
Model- Jetta GLS
Engine- 1.8t
Transmission- 5spd manual

Quick story-
A month or so ago; Was driving on the freeway, was getting on the on ramp, got on it a little bit, (ashamed here, please dont bash too hard). My foot was faster then my hand and GRRRRIIINNNDDD!!! NOOOO!!! I quickly put the clutch back in and continued on my way with mostly what it seemed as no issues. Shortly after I noticed the speedometer bouncing a bit but hoped it would "correct iself". The rest of the drive to my destination and back was fine. Everything seemed OK.

Every so often I would catch it (or thought I would) bouncing just a bit but couldn't get it to do it where I could watch. Last night on my way to work. It went crazy! Bouncing 5+ mph in either direction and cruise control was useless as it felt like someone was trying to give me whiplash. Driving without cruise control was smooth and whiplash free but the needle kept bouncing.

Sooo... here I am today. I took a few (6 to be exact) and some pics of replacing the VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor) on a manual transmission from the top.

I was just wondering before I go and upload a bunch a pics nobody wants/needs. Is there an interest for this? Also, so far so good after replacement but it was only a short drive..

Thanks,
Outlaw


**update**
I drove it to work tonight (~20miles) using cruise 90% of the way there and it seems to be good for now. Going to monitor for a few days at least.

[vwoutlaw]

*update*

It was raining today, not that the weather conditions should effect this.

On my way home from work today. It was working great til the on ramp of the freeway. No crazy acceleration or anything. The speedo needle dropped to 0 (not below). About half way through the drive, it started going crazy again. After the freeway (about 3/4 of the way) it dropped back to 0 and stayed there.

I will let it sit until tonight and see if it works or is at 0 again.

[vwoutlaw]

*update*

Drove to work tonight and there were no signs of life.

Speedometer, MPG, Odometer/Trip, Cruise not working.

[TheMel]

Ensure the VSS gear is meshing properly. Check all wiring. Check for any blown fuses.

[vwoutlaw]

Thanks.

I will check it over when I get home. The connection from the wire to the sensor should be solid. I checked it over for any melting or fraying and it was all still in the "pouch". I can't say I followed it back though or checked the fuses.

"Ensure the VSS gear is meshing properly"
Not sure I can check the meshing. That may be for a different car? See below for pictures. It is just a square pin that sits down inside a square hole, then screws into the trans.

New one on the left.


New one on the right.


I was hoping it was just the sensor. When I removed it from the trans, it rattled pretty bad with play left/right and up/down whereas the new one was nice and quiet with slight play left/right.

Outlaw

[TheMel]

Yes, different vehicle. I stand corrected.

[vwoutlaw]

NP, thanks for trying.

Also, while I wait for the engine to cool a bit and the carpet guy to get here and done. I somehow forgot to mention that the CEL is now on. I assume this is because the speedo isn't working at all now. Hopefully tomorrow I can get it put up in the air to better check where the sensor plugs into the trans and scanned. Today I will try to check fuses and trace wire. May need to wait til tomorrow to trace too though.


Thanks,
Outlaw

[Tcatt]

when you go to check all wiring, specifically check the ignition wirirng harness.... I had simialar issues (speedo,tripometer, and fuel gauge would go back and forth) One of the wires that goes into a connector came out. After i plugged it back in, problem was solved.

[vwoutlaw]

Thanks.

When you say the ignition wire harness, where exactly am I checking that? Or does it merge with the speed sensor?

Sorry, not car illiterate, just not sure where some of the stuff routes too/from. BTW, this is my first VW. May be the last. Not that i would sell for this reason alone, but I am looking to sell it for something that fits my requirements better. (not using this as an ad post)

Thanks,
Outlaw

[Tcatt]

Thanks.

When you say the ignition wire harness, where exactly am I checking that? Or does it merge with the speed sensor?

Sorry, not car illiterate, just not sure where some of the stuff routes too/from.

Thanks,
Outlaw

yes the ignition wiring harness actually has part of the VSS into it. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...wiring+harness

refer to 2nd the last picture shown. Hope this will help

[vwoutlaw]

If it is this,


That is the speed sensor that I replaced. Unless I am looking at the wrong pic. Sorry, that was the second to last picture for me.

Outlaw

[Tcatt]

yup, check the wiring from the speed sensor all the up to the 7pin connector that is on the driver side fender. should be under or to the side of the battery

[vwoutlaw]

Cool. Thanks for the info. Carpet guys are here now. Will have to see what I can find after.


Thanks,
Outlaw

[vwoutlaw]

*update*

Ok, well it turns out it wasn't the sensor. Or at least it wasn't only the sensor. lol.

The shaft that goes down into the trans (i thought this was in the trans) is shot. The gear teeth are mash and the last 1/2" is missing.

I'll get a few pics up but will do later. Just wanted to get an update here.

Outlaw

[TheMel]

...The shaft that goes down into the trans (i thought this was in the trans) is shot. The gear teeth are mash and the last 1/2" is missing...

[vwoutlaw]

Similar to what it should look like. (The part extending down after the splines is slightly different) This is for a 2.8L VR6


Full shaft.


Close up.



Oh and had I seen this post here in the VR6 engine section, i wouldn't have had to buy a sensor first. I think it may still have been bad/going bad as it did sound like a rattle compared to the new one.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...t-workin.-Help

Outlaw

[Tcatt]

Pretty sure this looks the culprit of your problem to me...

[TheMel]

X2

I figured there was a gear somewhere but when you posted the picture of the sensor I had to back up a bit. I'll be doggone if I give incorrect advice. I appreciate you posting what you found, bud!

[vwoutlaw]

lol. I'm hoping this is the only culprit. It appears to be a dealer only item and is 2 separate pieces. The part that is bad here is call the pinion.

P# 02A-409-197
Price- $15+tax

Glad to help. Hopefully this will help others in the future. Like I said before, I thought the all of the gear stuff was inside the trans and only accessible when dropping the trans. After I got the car to my dads were we could get underneath and a better view, it was obvious that it could come out.

Next up now is a fluid change to hopefully get as much of the pieces out and i don't know if that part that is broken in the trans is still in the hole or floating around somewhere...

This is hopefully all that is wrong as I am selling it within the next couple of months to a family member.


Thanks for the input so far guys
Outlaw

[vwoutlaw]

Picked up the pinion yesterday.
Total: $12.15 including tax.



Also note, the gear on the shaft which turns the pinion is also plastic. Worst case scenario would be that gear is damaged and needs replacing. You have to completely disassemble the trans to replace that gear. Fingers crossed this isn't the case.

Outlaw

[vwoutlaw]

BOOOO

Good and bad news.

Good news.
got all the "chunks" out and changed the trans fluid. replaced the pinion.

Bad news.
Didn't fix.... still no speedo and fuel bouncing... Will need to see what the "hard part" will cost.

[vwoutlaw]

Just another update if anybody is watching.

Replaced the pinion last weekend. No go.

It free spins in the tranny. When we replaced the trans fluid, there were some plastic chunks and some metal

It went to the trans shop friday where they said it would be ~600 to drop, inspect and put back without repair. It could cost up to 1200-1500 to fix.

Their diagnostic- When drained, there were more metal shavings, looked like "curly cue" and when scoped, they could not locate the speedo drive gear which is on the shaft. They said it may have "disintegrated". Not sure if that is possible but I believe it "exploded" at some point in the transmission at the least.


And it doesn't look like it will be getting sold after all.

btw, while I was under the car, I found there is a hybrid oil pan... Good thing I am lowered and have this extra piece of mind! haha

[Tcatt]

i was kinda afraid that plastic gear got shredded. And I think that plastic gear is like 10 or 20 dollar part too

[vwoutlaw]

Yeah, it blows big time.

My dad and I were ready to do it ourselves based on part cost and location. After shop scoped it and found metal shavings, we didn't want to chance it with the limited tools we have.

Part Number- 02A-409-187-B
Price- $42.95 (with tax)

#11 below is the speedometer drive gear. If it were just the gear needing replacement, it doesn't appear to be too hard to get at.


Thanks,
Outlaw

[vwoutlaw]

Well. got a call from the trans shop....

There is only bad and worse news.
The flywheel/clutch is shot
The differential has 3 'severed' rivets in a row....

Will eventually get pics up.



Word of advise... Any and all possible transmission issues should be looked at immediately!!! I should have spent 700 to have it dropped and inspected when I first did it to know if it was something I did or covered up by the previous owner.

[TheMel]

...Word of advise... Any and all possible transmission issues should be looked at immediately!!! I should have spent 700 to have it dropped and inspected when I first did it...

Ant said it best: Maintenance is Paramount. (unless you want a rollback as a daily lol)

[vwoutlaw]

[QUOTE=TheMel;77403639]

...Word of advise... Any and all possible transmission issues should be looked at immediately!!! I should have spent 700 to have it dropped and inspected when I first did it...QUOTE]

Ant said it best: Maintenance is Paramount. (unless you want a rollback as a daily lol)

Yeah. I really caught the shaft without Vaseline on this one. What really got my dad and I was how well it drove with so much wrong.

More Details:
Chunks missing from drive (1-5) gears
Differential rivets MIA
Speedo drive gear MIA
Internal transmission housing damage where differential was hitting it from wobbling
Approx 1/2 cup of metal shavings stuck to large magnet in transmission (per trans mechanic)
Clutch disk severely burned, springs shot, approx 50% contact made
Clutch flywheel severely burned, springs shot/missing, approx 50% contact made

Also, even with the replacement trans, we would likely be screwed on any core charge (up to $350 back) because of the damage. The dealer parts guy gave a great option I didn't even think of in my frustration. He said to keep it if were not going to get anything as its all aluminum. He said he was also interested in the shift linkage if still in good shape.

I may be able to recover some of the core charge at least if there is enough there.

Also, and I'll probably start another thread after some searching, but the trans shop wants to do an OEM clutch kit which includes the dual mass flywheel. The parts guy which seems to be an enthusiast/hobbyist says to get a standard flywheel (which would save me almost 200 bucks). He said that several of the other VW techs and his friends remove the dual mass as soon as they get the chance.

Gotta do some home work, but is this a good idea?

Outlaw


Also, thanks for following along BIG_TNZ and TheMel. lol

[DMVDUB]

I'm claiming this when I go to court the 11th for 98 in a 66... My speedo was bouncing so I just figured un between 65 and 120 should be about right... I'm sure the commonwealth atty will go for it

[vwoutlaw]

I'm claiming this when I go to court the 11th for 98 in a 66... My speedo was bouncing so I just figured un between 65 and 120 should be about right... I'm sure the commonwealth atty will go for it

Lol. GL. Usually, here at least. They will drop the point charge a bit (0 depending on actual offense) to a defective speedo and keep the payment the same whether something was actually failing or not.

They did that for me years ago. Was originally speeding 9-15 over, $150ish and 4points. They dropped to defective speedo, $150ish and 2points.

[Tcatt]

[QUOTE=vwoutlaw;77407183]

Yeah. I really caught the shaft without Vaseline on this one. What really got my dad and I was how well it drove with so much wrong.

More Details:
Chunks missing from drive (1-5) gears
Differential rivets MIA
Speedo drive gear MIA
Internal transmission housing damage where differential was hitting it from wobbling
Approx 1/2 cup of metal shavings stuck to large magnet in transmission (per trans mechanic)
Clutch disk severely burned, springs shot, approx 50% contact made
Clutch flywheel severely burned, springs shot/missing, approx 50% contact made

Also, even with the replacement trans, we would likely be screwed on any core charge (up to $350 back) because of the damage. The dealer parts guy gave a great option I didn't even think of in my frustration. He said to keep it if were not going to get anything as its all aluminum. He said he was also interested in the shift linkage if still in good shape.

I may be able to recover some of the core charge at least if there is enough there.

Also, and I'll probably start another thread after some searching, but the trans shop wants to do an OEM clutch kit which includes the dual mass flywheel. The parts guy which seems to be an enthusiast/hobbyist says to get a standard flywheel (which would save me almost 200 bucks). He said that several of the other VW techs and his friends remove the dual mass as soon as they get the chance.

Gotta do some home work, but is this a good idea?

Outlaw


Also, thanks for following along BIG_TNZ and TheMel. lol

Personally I'd get rid of the dual mass flywheel. I have the ecs tuning stage 1 kit and not only does it hold more hp and tq but you can def tell the difference in how fast your rpm's pick up. This way if your gonna get ecu reflash, aint' gotta worry about replacing the clutch. I've got about 80k on my stage 1 kit with not a single issue.

[vwoutlaw]

Thanks for the info

Knowing that with the price definitely seems good, especially for the wallet.

My only concern (while not a true concern lol) is that this is going to push me to "real" mods. I was already looking at the short throw, coils, front mount... this is no good. lol

Thanks again.

[Tcatt]

lol anytime

[vwoutlaw]

[start rant]
To start- I can't complain 100% as I am not paying for this upfront... I will be paying for it.

Drove the car to the trans shop for optical inspect through the speedo hole in trans... They could only confirm the speed drive gear was missing and there were metal shavings when draining fluid.

^^had we stopped there it would have been free.

(not blaming him here) Per my dads instruction, we had the shop drop the trans to find it looked like someone set off a grenade. BOOM, right there 600 bucks.

For shop to fix with rebuilt trans with OEM clutch/flywheel (dual mass) and labor. Oh and BTW, after telling him I did my shopping but we were still going to go with him, he tells me "btw, my vw guy said he still needs to build it" WTF, you've had the car for about 5 days now, you couldn't have given him a heads up? For what it may be worth?? Warranty is 2yr unlimited mileage
TOTAL to fix.... rounding to nearest dollar amount- $3400, Parts, Labor, Tax

^^Unfortunately for me wanting to be the garage DIYer without the garage. I spent a few hours shopping around.

Found new trans through APTuning on vortex here for about 1600 shipped freight. ECS Stage one clutch kit with single mass flywheel for 310 with free ground shipping.
Just for grins and sh!ts, lets say I needed to spend 490 on tools/fluid/tax/other crap. Warranty is 1yr
TOTAL- 2400 Parts, Labor (wait, what? I think that is called pride lol), Tax

I even stopped at my local dealer
Transmission (manufacturer rebuild) 2500 with tax/shipped overnight by 4pm next day. After core turn in - 1700 Warranty is 12/12k
ECS Stage one clutch kit with single mass flywheel for 405 shipped overnight by 4pm next day.
Just for grins and sh!ts, lets say I needed to spend 490 on tools/fluid/tax/other crap.
TOTAL- 2595 Parts, Labor (wait, what? I think that is called pride lol), Tax


I didnt even look for the warranty on the clutch... I was done at that point and so mad. Oh I did see that I could have also gotten an LSD and still come out at or below the shop price. Or put on new tires which need to be replaced sooner than later as the ones on there are starting to looke like banana peels.

My dad said had he known it was that bad he would have pulled it and we can chaulk this up to a learning experience.

My reply, too bad the experience has a comma in it.

[end rant]


I will end it with, either get it checked right away OR if you are at all mechanically inclined and have legal access to work on your vehicle, DO IT!