2.1 stoker build - making the TTR

[jedge1.8t]

okay, i had enough of tinkering around my motor. I just wanna start from scratch and just build my dream. a 2.1 stroker for my TT225 quattro. I wont have any money to go BT anytime soon, but I will make a effort to rebuild my KO4 while i swap the built engine in. I pray for a GTX3071 though in the next year or so

I already have a AMU head to begin with. right now im trying to source a AMU block.
once I have the two ill pull the trigger on the 5k worth of engine parts.

TOP END:
Supertech +1mm valves - HAVE
Supertech valves and retainers - HAVE
Valve Guides - HAVE
Lifters - HAVE
ARP head bolts - 120
AMU valve cover - $80

Reuse: stock cam tensioner(non-vvt), stock cams * need your input here *
Total for top realistically - 2k

BOTTOM END:
Block w/ oil filter housing -$350
oilpan - $100
IE 9:5:1 20mm Rods, 83mm pistons, timing gear - $1200
MK4 TDI crank - $250
TDI trigger gear - $50
ARP piston bolts - $120
rod bearings - $50

total for bottom realistically - $2.3k

SEALING:
overbore gasket - $60
southbend intake gasket - $50
Time belt kit and various others - $300
KO4 rebuild kit - 100

Full reastistic total - 5k

I hope to start this soon so any input before i start would be great. would love to get this right the first time.

[LightSwitch]

looks like you've got a good hand on things so far. Keep in mind that the machine work on all of this is going to be fairly significant.

i've got a very similar setup in my garage:

ALH crank
83.5mm 9.5:1 JE's
AEB head
Supertech springs/inconel exhaust valves

etc.

I'll be running one of pag's billet GT3071R's, should make for an amazing daily driver.

A GTX3071 can push plenty of air for high RPM's, so youre AEB cams will come up a little short up top. I'll be running the stock AEB cams in mine for awhile until i have everything dialed in, then i *may* introduce some cam's into the build. but i'm also not set on revving to the moon(i'll probably go to 7500-7800)

Many are going to tell you to skimp on the ALH(TDI) crank in favor of a 2.0t crank. As they like to rev more then the ALH's. I'd make damn sure that you have a VERY competent machine shop build the motor, as you want them to make sure that the ALH crank is straight/in spec.

id think about adding a fluiddampr to your list, id also consider purchasing the IE dowel pin kit and having your machine shop install it with the build.

heres a picture of it as it sits(other than a Cat cam gear that i just put on)

and the clearances you'll be dealing with:

i'm hoping to have it up and running in the next month or so assuming arnold has time to get my kit done.

[jbrehm]

Good advice from LightSwitch. I'll add that you should really source an AEB head for a build like this; it's just a no brainer for a turbo that's flowing that much. Since I was rebuilding the head anyway, I opted to source an AEB head with bent valves. I'd also consider some mains studs, a girdle, and using coated bearings.

I regret not going 2.1L or 2.2L for my engine

[LightSwitch]

Good advice from LightSwitch. I'll add that you should really source an AEB head for a build like this; it's just a no brainer for a turbo that's flowing that much. Since I was rebuilding the head anyway, I opted to source an AEB head with bent valves. I'd also consider some mains studs, a girdle, and using coated bearings.

I regret not going 2.1L or 2.2L for my engine

Missed that one earlier. I'd deffinetly source a used large port head for your build. They can be had for fairly cheap. I picked mine up for 175.00.

[jedge1.8t]

wow not even started and im already hitting some complications. not sure how the high compression will hold up to what i have. I live in california, so 91 octane is all i got. and also since smog is so up tight i need SAI still, which is why i sort of why i want to stay small port. Tuners only delete codes if your BT, and i im already APR immobilized so i dont know if i can even risk sending it off to someone to clear codes.

I might switch this build around a little, I might just rebuild my AMU to stock with the TDI bottom end. it will be much cheaper and it will retain stock like driveability, which is mostly why i dont want to do cams. bigger cams will just be a pain for emissions and idling. not that i care about those but california does

i figure that would be better because i can then go straight to the GTX, just so i can be fast faster haha. somewhere down the line i will take on the AEB, but i feel i shouldnt do that until im wideband and running eurodyne.

[jedge1.8t]

btw light switch, you made me quite jealous when you threw that eye candy at me.

beautiful piece you got there and wish the best for your results.

couple questions though - was your TDI crank forged, any grinding to make it fit. basicly how was your process in fitting the TDI crank to your block.

[Pat @ Pitt Soundworks]

Drops right in to an 06a block.

Sent from my HTC ThunderBolt using Tapatalk 2

[jedge1.8t]

so all there is to change is the trigger wheel? nothing else? (besides timing gear)

[sauron18]

LightSwitch it is safe to use 83.5mm with turbo?
I hope to see the numbers of your project soon

[jbrehm]

okay, i had enough of tinkering around my motor. I just wanna start from scratch and just build my dream.

would love to get this right the first time.

I might switch this build around a little, I might just rebuild my AMU to stock with the TDI bottom end. it will be much cheaper and it will retain stock like driveability

Just build what you really want from the start, man. If you can't do it right now, just start collecting parts.

[jedge1.8t]

This is why i wrote this thread, to be steered in the right direction. they say go AEB.

to switch to AEB and have software to run it correctly in my TT is alot money and will delay this project.

I will start from the bottom end and then decide whats next. 2.1 stroker will happen

[Pat @ Pitt Soundworks]

Alh trigger wheel is one window. What's amu?

You also have to have the snout modified to fit the 1.8t timing gear.

The alh crank and main journals are the same size as the 86.4mm cranks, the oil pump drive gear is correct, and the flywheel bolt pattern is the same.

Sent from my HTC ThunderBolt using Tapatalk 2

[INA]

Many are going to tell you to skimp on the ALH(TDI) crank in favor of a 2.0t crank. As they like to rev more then the ALH's. I'd make damn sure that you have a VERY competent machine shop build the motor, as you want them to make sure that the ALH crank is straight/in spec.

Would you be willing to elaborate?
Also the ALH crankshaft will cost you $500+ to get done correctly if the base cost on the crankshaft alone is $250.

[LightSwitch]

I'm just referring to how most people on this forum get bent out of shape about the ALH's rod ratio. When revving the ALH crank past 8K. This might not even be that big of an issue. But my motor isn't even installed yet, so I haven't run into this personally. assuming that the crank is perfect/rotating assembly has been fully balanced I'm sure you'd be fine.

To the OP:

I'd also get your rotating assembly balanced. And My machine shop fused the new trigger wheel/machined the keyway to accept my AWM crank gear.

INA:

I need to pm you about a mocal oil cooler setup for my build if your still offering them

[doug@frankenturbo.com]

...most people on this forum get bent out of about the ALH's rod ratio.

To them I'd say, "don't knock it 'til you've tried it."

[jedge1.8t]

Patt has opened my eyes up to another option, a ALH block.

im not likely to go this way but Im curious on benefits, i like the idea of a stronger block
anyone know how compatible these are with the transmissions and engine bay?

i plan to upgrade mounts but i dont want to lurk into anything custom.
right now im just waiting on a shipping quote for my AMU unless someone can convince me turn around and go ALH

[18T_BT]

All the 4cyl blocks have the same tranny mounting points.

Not sure you really 'need' a stronger block since the blocks can handle tons of cyl pressure.

[pete@integrated]

Don't do the ALH block... That'll turn it into a never ending project. It's a lot of work to get a 20v head onto one of those.

[jedge1.8t]

figured it would ba alot more money and planning involved, but so far ive only been able to pin out the m12 timecerts to m10 is the only complication on mating the heads.

im still waiting on the invoice for the AMU block

[jedge1.8t]

I decided to stick with my original plan over all and port the AMU head.

I know the AEB heads are higher flowing and better torque at high RPMS but i believe the results for a ported smallport will be more than satisfying. plus i can stay emissions friendly.

still havent gotten a invoice on the AMU so i will probably check out the salvage yard within the week for a 06A block.

[iae21]

I decided to stick with my original plan over all and port the AMU head.

I know the AEB heads are higher flowing and better torque at high RPMS but i believe the results for a ported smallport will be more than satisfying. plus i can stay emissions friendly.

still havent gotten a invoice on the AMU so i will probably check out the salvage yard within the week for a 06A block.

With that head, you're really not going to see the true benefit/potential of a stroker set-up, even if you decide to use oversized valves.

Since youre going to practically rebuild your head anyways, I'd say source a AEB head that has bent valves.

And who says you can't be emissions friendly with an AEB? Talking about the SAI hook-up? Any reputable machine shop can mimic the stock holes from your old head and put them on the AEB.

If you have big plans, might as well go all the way.....don't half-a$$ it.

[jedge1.8t]

Idk there is lots of contridicting things out there, the small port is rumored to flow better, but the large port can move more air at lower psi. Im only looking for around 380 - 450 hp

In posted test in large vs smalls its either high torque, lower hp or vice versa.

running high RPMs on head that flows better to me seems better than one that flows less smooth.

does anyone have any data showing a ported large port is better flowing than a ported smallport?

this is a hard choice.

[turbo2.24.1990]

Read this thread if you haven't already:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...&highlight=aeb

Regardless, bottom line is if 380-450bhp is your hp goal, I wouldnt even be thinking about an aeb, absolutely not needed and definitely a waste of time and headaches. Keep it simple, stick with a head you know will work on your block. Even if you do go bigger, like the thread i listed above shows there are guys doing 700+ on small port heads.

[jedge1.8t]

i read that forum many times. one thing i noticed though is that its always ported small vs a non-ported big.

I want to see the flow on a P&P AEB and compare if its better to small port.

I feel its safe to say that the smallport has better flow, it would be a cheaper route, it would fit nicely to the block, and i feel going this way would be more HP less torque as to going AEB.

[iae21]

Read this thread if you haven't already:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...&highlight=aeb

Regardless, bottom line is if 380-450bhp is your hp goal, I wouldnt even be thinking about an aeb, absolutely not needed and definitely a waste of time and headaches. Keep it simple, stick with a head you know will work on your block. Even if you do go bigger, like the thread i listed above shows there are guys doing 700+ on small port heads.

NOT true....look at PAGE 2 of this link and see what INA had to say about this whole debate.

INA Post #1: "Ideally it depends on the OVERALL system. What turbocharger , what intake manifold , etc...

To claim a small port head that has been properly modified may make more power over a large port head on any set up (that includes full blown drag cars) goes against everything anyone at Volkswagen & Skoda racing have ever done (who have countless hours of dyno and road testing that members of this forum will never be able to fathom). "

INA Post #2: "Put it this way.
we have an Oreca Motor and a Skoda WRC upper half that we used as a reference when we did our CNC porting program.
Problem with Small port heads is the intake port can NOT be CNC ported efficiently (not on a Centroid anyway). I do not recall any of those heads having knife edged ports. "


'nuff said

[Yak Meat]

Awesome Build!!!

[turbo2.24.1990]

What about what I said is "NOT true"??

1)I said that if 380-450bhp is the op's goal-an aeb head is absolutely not necessary. Meaning an aeb is not a necessary condition of anyone that wants 380-450bhp.

2)In my previous post NEVER did I disagree with anything Issam said...I NEVER said smallport is better than largeport hands down. I 100% agree with Issam that it TOTALLY depends on the overall setup. To assume that I didn't read a thread I suggested the op to read?...
Take the time to read what I said.

So given what info the op has said about his situation OVERALL-that he'd like to go with a gtx3071, 380-450bhp, he's narrowband, and that he lives in california with their screwy emissions, I'm saying that for his power goals and given where he lives, stick with the small port (he doesn't even have to p&p it) with all the emissions crap on it because he will still make those power goals, and he won't have to spend the extra time, $, and headaches.

[dubinsincuwereindiapers]

Interesting

[jedge1.8t]

Im back towards the AEB again though. I was close to putting my supertech package into my AMU but I stop thought to myself, do I really want to go smallport on a BT?

Eurodyne, or any other solid BT isnt intended for the narrowband, so i will eventually need to convert to wide if i want to make the most use out of the GTX. and in that process i can just write emissions crap out.

And speaking of emissions, because the fuel pump and injectors are being replaced, why not switch to E85 as well. I can have the tank sprayed and switch over to stainless lines easily, E85 should give me some good smog scores for Cali.

but now im stuck again looking for that AEB head, which i really wish i didn't have to

[Cryser]

As someone that literally just went through everything your going through, changing my "dream" engine in my head 50 times, saying i want this and that, then reading and changing my mind etc etc.

Here is some advice, you honestly don't need the "BEST" of everything and you'll never get it. This game is a game of trade offs there is no best it's all about the whole set up. Granted I built my own engine and did all the machine work but save about $1000-$1200 for misc. **** you'll need it.

Build what you WANT and more importantly what you are prepared to TUNE, over hardwaring the **** out of your engine is meaningless if you can't tune the thing to extract the power and honestly 95% of the people building motors NOT on full standalone in these cars aren't maximizing their set ups before throwing new parts on.

IF your going with maestro and you are planning to tune it yourself without any prior knowledge of the program I highly suggest you still with stock cams, IM,TB, and only use a cam gear to set valve timing back to stock as a result of decking head and block. You'll have enough of a hard time figuring out ME7 without all that added hassle and work that will exponentially complicate the tuning process, especially if you are going MAFLESS, which I don't recommend.

Good luck with the build, I have a new found respect for anyone that likes to push the envelope around here or builds their engines because of my work with my own engine

[iae21]

What about what I said is "NOT true"??

1)I said that if 380-450bhp is the op's goal-an aeb head is absolutely not necessary. Meaning an aeb is not a necessary condition of anyone that wants 380-450bhp.

2)In my previous post NEVER did I disagree with anything Issam said...I NEVER said smallport is better than largeport hands down. I 100% agree with Issam that it TOTALLY depends on the overall setup. To assume that I didn't read a thread I suggested the op to read?...
Take the time to read what I said.

So given what info the op has said about his situation OVERALL-that he'd like to go with a gtx3071, 380-450bhp, he's narrowband, and that he lives in california with their screwy emissions, I'm saying that for his power goals and given where he lives, stick with the small port (he doesn't even have to p&p it) with all the emissions crap on it because he will still make those power goals, and he won't have to spend the extra time, $, and headaches.

I agree with you....if he wants to stick to that goal of 380-450hp, then he should just upgrade rods, better head bolts and bolt on Gtx3071 or 3076. No reason to dump all that money into a motor for only 380HP. Most kits out there today offer around that range without a total engine rebuild.

Besides, why "380-450hp" anyways....seems like quite a big range???

[fknbzn]

I decided to stick with my original plan over all and port the AMU head.

I know the AEB heads are higher flowing and better torque at high RPMS but i believe the results for a ported smallport will be more than satisfying. plus i can stay emissions friendly.

still havent gotten a invoice on the AMU so i will probably check out the salvage yard within the week for a 06A block.

Subscribed to thread. I'm right up the hill from you and at about the same place for a stroker build after coolant supply hose for turbo failed last week. Going uphill w/25psi of boost at 4000ft things happened REAL quick. Cracked cyl. wall and melted piston. Anyway I'll be heading to junkyards in Sac. this week gathering some parts for build. I might be able to get a decent discount by buying double(machine work, also). I'll be looking for 06a bare block and 2.0t fsi crank. I'm hoping to find a few engines with busted timing belts. PM me and let me know if your looking for the same and I will keep a lookout.

[frakay100]

I run a small port head / ported and my TT runs 565 bhp on standard cams. For you power targets I would not go to too much extra expense on the head, uprate your valves and spend the money on the million other small things you have to but once you think you are finished