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    Thread: Older Porsche + 15% ethanol gas = bad idea.

    1. 04-25-2012 11:15 AM #26
      the black stuff was proved in an experiment where someone had access to a lab hood. when you are injecting an atomized spray of ethanol molecules into a source of heavy vacuum (like that you would see in a port injected intake manifold) and heat, this black buildup is the result.

      e85 tuner guys have this same black sticky buildup and are supposed to run a tank of 93 every 3 or 4 tanks of e85 to dissolve and burn all the junk away. I will find the thread. Usually it just builds up on the manifold right under where the injectors fire, but it can happen on valves too.
      these look like evo injectors for e85



      Well, here is what I did just so everyone is clear. I filled a 40mL vial with E85 and blew it dry with nitrogen gas and mild heating (about 150*F). After there was no fuel left, I placed it under high vacuum to remove any remaining volatiles for about an hour. I was left with a clear sticky residue that smelled bad - like nasty frying oil. I dissolved this sample in the NMR solvent and analyzed it and it IS the same goo that was on the injector. There was smaller amounts of some other stuff in it as well, but the same peaks I saw in the black goo were in this residue. The black goo IS coming from the E85. It isn't naturally black, though. I suspect it just has soot mixed in with it that is giving it the color.

      So the next challenge is figuring out why is this crap in our fuel, and if it is in everyone's fuel (particularly people who aren't having this problem).
      http://codsm.org/forums/showpost.php?p=29606

      and
      Ok, it isn't chewing gum, of course. I think gum is a generic term for high MW sticky solids. Anyway, if you look at table 1 in this article, it mentions that there is up to 5mg of "solvent-washed gum content"/100mL and up to 20mg "unwashed gum content"/100mL. It think this might be what is sticking to our injectors.

      Later in the article it also mentions that mixing E85 and pump gas WILL cause additives to crash out and stick to the injectors and intake runners. I don't think this is what we are seeing since I saw the molecule in a clean sample of E85, but it does open that possibility for others who are mixing.

      http://www.lubrizol.com/press-room/m...onProc2-08.pdf
      there is much more good read to this thread, and sources linked elsewhere that makes internet forums great at communicating information and research. This may be the case for e85, but when you have e10 almost everywhere, it is almost certain you will see some of this junk
      Last edited by DrFrisker; 04-25-2012 at 11:51 AM.
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      Dude, its the internet. Everyone trolls everyone. if you get butthurt, go buy some preparation H or troll back.

    2. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 11:41 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Many of the pumps listed at stations there are designated to marine use.

      So in theory in states like CT if I were to use gas from a marina.... would than mean I'd have ethanol free gas?
      Well, if condensation is a real problem for ethanol, it certainly makes sense that most boat fueling stations wouldn't want/have it. That's also probably why they've been successful at keeping it out of their pumps.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
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    3. Global Moderator David@vwvortex's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 11:44 AM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by Dan92SLC View Post
      I heard CIS really doesn't like it. Also heard there are marine fuel additives that help.
      It's something I'm definitely watching on my Rabbit which runs CIS and it's not run about too much. When I do run it I try to get it at least worked over pretty well and warmed up so hopefully some of this junk burns off.

    4. Member Dan92SLC's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 11:52 AM #29

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      04-25-2012 12:09 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by Roadkilled78 View Post
      http://pure-gas.org/

      Good stuff. Around me the price of ethanol free isn't much higher, 2-3%, and the fuel economy is a solid 10% better, or more. It's worth it even in modern vehicles.
      Thanks for this. Turns out there is a station no more that 10 miles from my house. I will be filling all of my lawn equipment tanks, the Corrado and when it's running, the old 911 as well.

      Thanks to Obin as well for a great, informative post.
      Last edited by Geesixty; 04-25-2012 at 12:11 PM.

    6. Member U n i o n 0015's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 12:11 PM #31
      Ethanol has been a huge problem for the motorcycle community.

      I've had to replace two gas tanks because the ethanol attracts water into the particular type of plastic tank Ducati uses and it causes the tank to expand and warp.


    7. 04-25-2012 01:02 PM #32
      Try "Marine Formula "Stab Bil" - seems to do a pretty good job for both the boad & Boxster (when I've had to fill w/E-gas).
      Note that NO additive can negate the effects on rubber/plastic parts nor "recombine" already separated water in the fuel system...

      Oh, and thanks for nutt'n, GWB...

    8. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 01:07 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by 2VWatatime View Post
      Try "Marine Formula "Stab Bil" - seems to do a pretty good job for both the boad & Boxster (when I've had to fill w/E-gas).
      http://www.amazon.com/STA-BIL-22240-...5373477&sr=8-1

      32oz treats 160 gallons (about 10 complete tanks of gas). Not bad. I'll order some asap. Thanks for the heads up!

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    9. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 01:11 PM #34
      This is why I only run V-power 91 octane from Shell in the Datsun.

    10. Member adrew's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 01:29 PM #35
      I have looked for it around here, but the only place that sells non-ethanol gas is by Texas Motorsports Ranch about 45 minutes away.

      >10% is not allowed in my MY2012 car:
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    11. Member Accidental L8 apex's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 01:36 PM #36
      So, according to puregas.com, almost all of Ohio is running E10.
      A known "hiveminder".

    12. Member G0to60's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 01:50 PM #37
      Well, damn it. I haven't noticed any issues with my Corrado with the E10 92oct I regularly use but I haven't really dug into the fuel system in some time. Now with E15 on the horizon I think I will be making the trip to the ethanol free stations. It's usually about $.50 more per gallon that I've noticed but that's a small price to pay in my mind.

    13. Member GiacGtiAgain's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 02:05 PM #38
      not a single ethanol free station in long island or new york city according to pure-gas.com. The only one that does appear on the list is on the south shore of central long island and they apparently only have it for a few months out of the year and only at a specific pump. lol.

    14. Member 2.0T_Convert's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 02:12 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by GiacGtiAgain View Post
      not a single ethanol free station in long island or new york city according to pure-gas.com. The only one that does appear on the list is on the south shore of central long island and they apparently only have it for a few months out of the year and only at a specific pump. lol.
      Reading on one of these station in Orlando and it literally is only just 2 pumps out of 10 and the only indicator of the ethnaol free blend is if you get close you see the extra signage for marine use blends.

      I'm sure in NYC area people only really need marine fuel at certain times of the year for personal watercraft so seasonal fuel makes sense.
      Sent from my tablet while sipping weak drinks over fancy brunch with a view

    15. Member Uberhare's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 02:19 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      I have looked for it around here, but the only place that sells non-ethanol gas is by Texas Motorsports Ranch about 45 minutes away.

      >10% is not allowed in my MY2012 car:
      My 2011 Ford Flex has the same warnings on the gas filler door. Nothing above 10%. And we've had 10% around Eastern WA for as long as I remember.....many many years.
      The lion does not concern himself with the opinion of the sheep.

    16. n00b theporscheguys's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 05:42 PM #41
      I was just checking out my blog traffic and noticed that this post was linked from this post. I hope the post was interesting and had some good information for people.

      I wrote it on a Porsche only section of the blog (http://theporscheguys.com is for Porsches and http://thesportscarguys.com is for general sports cars) and that is why it talks about Porsche owners, although this information should be useful to non-Porsche drivers as well. So, far this post has a lot of Porsche owners saying that we should get together with other car guys and petition to have the non-ethanol gas available in all areas.

    17. Member LethaOne's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 06:23 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by Roadkilled78 View Post
      Not a single station listed for Jersey. Go fig.

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      04-25-2012 06:46 PM #43
      My dad and I have done a lot of classic car/classic motorcycle projects over the last 10+ years (Vegas has had E10 for about that long), and without exception our carbureted vehicles have run terribly on ethanol fuels. Anything rubber in the fuel system either flakes apart or swells because of the ethanol, and generally doesn't last as long in service. Also, most carb kits/fuel pump kits and other rubber parts for older stuff are not available with 'ethanol compliant' rubber pieces. It really sucks when the only source of rubber fuel parts available is 40+ year old NOS stuff.



      The hot weather+ethanol+carbureted vehicle is a bad combination. The ethanol mix seems to have a lower boiling point than regular gas, and in the summers here (110+ F) the gas will boil right out of the float bowls if you shut the engine off and the engine heat-soaks for just a few minutes. This makes the car/bike a b*tch to restart.


      The motorcycle problems are even worse than the car problems, especially on the air cooled bikes in the summer. Unfortunately, there are no stations anywhere close to us that offer 'normal' gas.


      to ethanol.

    19. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 07:00 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by theporscheguys View Post
      I was just checking out my blog traffic and noticed that this post was linked from this post. I hope the post was interesting and had some good information for people.

      I wrote it on a Porsche only section of the blog (http://theporscheguys.com is for Porsches and http://thesportscarguys.com is for general sports cars) and that is why it talks about Porsche owners, although this information should be useful to non-Porsche drivers as well. So, far this post has a lot of Porsche owners saying that we should get together with other car guys and petition to have the non-ethanol gas available in all areas.
      I got the message in an e-mail from the PCA blog e-mail and I thought people here could use the info. There's some great stuff on that website of yours. Welcome to the Car Lounge.

      obin (previously owned a 1984 944 btw)
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    20. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 07:14 PM #45
      ARRRGH! It gets even worse. While researching more info on this subject I came across this:

      http://www.porsche.com/usa/accessori...-05-23-classic

      Compatibility of E10 fuel with Porsche vintage cars and recent classics
      Verify your classic car‘s compatibility of E10 fuel with the help of our overviewE10 is a fuel which contains a higher proportion of ethanol than previous petrol formulations. The “E” stands for ethanol. The number “10” indicates that the fuel contains up to 10% ethanol. Previously the proportion of ethanol in petrol was up to 5%.

      E10 fuels are suitable for refuelling and thus for running all Porsche vehicles as of year of construction 1996. Specifically, the Boxster (model year 1997) and Carrera (model year 1998) models onwards.

      These new fuels, which can include up to 10% ethanol in the future in accordance with new statutory regulations, can be used in all new Porsche vehicles without any problems.
      The fuel types Regular E10 (91 RON) and Unleaded E10 (95 RON) are not suitable for use in the following Porsche vehicle types:

      Type Year of construction
      356 1950-65
      911 1965-89
      912 1965-69; 1976
      964 1989-94
      993 1994-98
      959 1988-89
      914 1970-77
      924 1976-88
      944 1981-91
      968 1991-95
      928 1977-95

      These Porsche vehicles may not be run on E10 fuel. As an alternative, Super unleaded (98 RON) can be used. With a maximum bioethanol content of 5% (E5 fuel), Super unleaded is compatible with these vehicles.
      Please contact your nearest Porsche Centre for more detailed information.

      5/23/2011
      Here you can find all information about Porsche Classic from past years.
      Stupid garbage gasoline is going to ruin a lot of people's cars.

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    21. Member Sentinelist's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 07:20 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      Very interesting. I'm already annoyed that I can't get real gas in the Houston area. Nothing but 10% ethanol "garbage gas" for hundreds of miles.

      obin
      Indeed, same here... I have no choice but to run E10 (Premium 93 Techron) in my 944 Turbo. It's as good as I can get, or literally nothing.

      Thanks, obin. Great info, infuriating cause for it though.
      Last edited by Sentinelist; 04-25-2012 at 07:22 PM.

    22. Member jettagli1991's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 07:22 PM #47
      According to that site there is one E-free station that I drive past weekly, 91 only. Too bad I'm always in my Jeep and not the cars that actually need good fuel. Since it takes a while to burn through a tank in my classic cars, I could probably fill a can every week to bring home and keep them all running on it. I hate gas cans inside the car with me though. Roof rack mod to safely carry gas cans?

    23. Member freedomperiod's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 07:23 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by theporscheguys View Post
      I was just checking out my blog traffic and noticed that this post was linked from this post. I hope the post was interesting and had some good information for people.

      I wrote it on a Porsche only section of the blog (http://theporscheguys.com is for Porsches and http://thesportscarguys.com is for general sports cars) and that is why it talks about Porsche owners, although this information should be useful to non-Porsche drivers as well. So, far this post has a lot of Porsche owners saying that we should get together with other car guys and petition to have the non-ethanol gas available in all areas.
      Welcome!

      Thank you for putting up that info. I'm glad it found its way over here. It's extremely disconcerting.

      I would definitely sign such a petition.

    24. Member Sentinelist's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 07:23 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by jettagli1991 View Post
      According to that site there is one E-free station that I drive past weekly, 91 only. Too bad I'm always in my Jeep and not the cars that actually need good fuel. Since it takes a while to burn through a tank in my classic cars, I could probably fill a can every week to bring home and keep them all running on it. I hate gas cans inside the car with me though. Roof rack mod to safely carry gas cans?
      It's funny you mention that, because if I ever find a non-corny station around me, I'm buying a 300 gallon gas reserve tank to store in my side yard and will fill it up with a gas can on every refueling trip.

      Quote Originally Posted by freedomperiod View Post
      Thank you for putting up that info. I'm glad it found its way over here. It's extremely disconcerting.

      I would definitely sign such a petition.
      Definitely. BS like this is why I'd like to become a senator.

    25. Member chucchinchilla's Avatar
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      04-25-2012 07:34 PM #50
      Only choice is Ethanol gas where I am so I've been using Sta-Bil. So far so good..fingers crossed.

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